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I picked this up from another forum.
Save the No.8 rifle before its too late! | UK Shooting News
I suspect that the chances of getting these onto the market are slim unless they go the usual UK to USA then some back to the UK route.
However it might be worth a go through the HBSA and NRA and by a bit of campaigning with your newly elected MP in May. Two or three hundred e mails to 50 or 60 MPs can have an effect.
Thanks for bringing it to our attention Robert, I think one petition we could all sign would be the way to go I,m sure it would get the backing of the HBSA and NSRA then an individual email or letter (letter writing does still exist but in small quantities). Probably a good conversation point When the parties come knocking on my door........ for support.
I got all excited reading this - until I read those initials HBSA and NRA. Look lads.........., don't even bother getting them involved with anything sensible. You are simply wasting your valuable time. I told them about the disposal of the single shot, straight pull bolt action SA80/L98 rifles that were perfectly legal and............. Maybe they're still thinking about that one.......
Peter I take your point but with letters and e mails at the very least we can bombard HBSA / NRA / NSRA with copies and then ask crunchy questions about what they did. All good fun!
I don't remember that Peter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Take it from me Beery, I did. But reading it again, I didn't mean the HBSA but the SBRA/the small bore rifle assn based at Bisley confusing small-bore No8's/SBRA with the HBSA. Totally different animals of course.
Maybe the HBSA ought to write to the Defence Minister.
Is Geat Britain not a signatory to that UN convention that prohibits sale of military weapons to the citizenry? Here in Aust, as I understand, under the treaty they can only be sold off to the government of a country aligned with NATO and only under the condition that they could never get into civilian hands.
Luckily for our friends over the ditch, the NZ gov saw the value in not signing, which resulted in the release of all the NZ contract No8 rifles to auction.
Surely logic should dictate that a single shot .22lr target rifle would not be an asset to a criminal or terrorist organisation, especially considering the cost they would pull at auction as collectables.
Logic and Government !!!!!! maybe one day Son, but doubt I,ll see it in my life time.
They must be destroyed by mutilation. Anything less will not meet their treaty obligations.
Well I've posted this on the HBSA forum hopefully we can do something as NZ shooters did when faced with the same scenario a few years ago.
Cheers
H
I know a few of the Council members of the HBSA, will have a chat with them this Saturday to see if there is any interest in pursuing this one.
Just posted on the HBSA Forum by the Chairman, I have taken his email address out as I do not have permission to publicise:
Just so that members are aware, we have picked up this issue and will see what can be done.
We will advise of any progress.
Please mail any useful additional information to me at (deleted)
Many thanks
The NZ No8s were not just simply released for public sale, they were all destined for scrap but thanks to the good work of a few they were saved.
There were a few conditions of sale including registration prior to the auction, NZ licence holders only, no postal bids & limits on numbers purchased so you could not just show on the day & buy lots of guns.
Tell your lot to get in touch with the NZ Antique & Historic Arms Association & find out how those in NZ went about saving the Cadet rifles, this may help in your fight, good luck.
That all sounds very logical and sensible Unfortunately the UK Government has never shown either quality when it comes to defence procurement or firearms legislation.Quote:
Originally Posted by 5thBatt
However HBSA is now on the case. (Before anyone comments on that remember, that we have Section 7 is entirely down to HBSA. Compare that to the state of our Olympic team!)
Just to note - this is getting a fair bit of airing on the LERA forum
John
Hello
Out of interest I submitted a FoI to the MoD.
They have confirmed that they haven’t destroyed the no.8’s and they still hold 6956 rifles. 2065 unserviceable No.8’s have however been destroyed.
They will be sending the remaining rifles to DESA who will then try to sell them sometime in the future. If the cannot then they would be destroyed at that point in line with govt. policy.
Any possibility of having them sent to foreign countries?
Then they are still holding (& scrapped a high percentage) of the 15,000 manufactured by Fazakerley (There were an additional 2000 manufactured in the '50's by BSA specifically for export to New Zealand) I wonder what has happened to the other 6,000 ?Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveWales
I don’t think the MoD records go back too far so I don’t think they know. They will have a records and retention policy that will initially archive and then destroy records. I think that’s why they have referenced ten years in their response. I’ve copied the full question I asked and response below.
Thank you for your email of 28th December 2019 requesting the following information:
I am submitting the following as a FoI request.
The scope of this request are all organisations financed through the MoD budget (i.e. Army, Royal Navy, RAF, reserves, cadet forces etc.).
For the No.7, No.8 and No.9 .22 cadet training rifles can you provide details of:
1. The volumes of rifles originally purchased broken down by rifle type, together with details of the year and month of purchase and the volume purchased from each manufacturer (I.e. BSA, Parker Hale or ROF Fazakerley).
2. Volumes of each rifle type currently held either directly or in reserve.
3. Details of all sales/gifts (I.e. month and year of sale, volume, types of rifle sold/gifted and recipient). If the rifle was deactivated before being sold/gifted can you identify these separately please.
4. Details of all disposals (I.e. month and year of destruction, volume and types of rifles destroyed.)
I am treating your correspondence as a request for information under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA).
A search for the information has now been completed within the Ministry of Defence (MOD), and I can confirm that some information in scope of your request is held.
The information you have requested can be found below.
1. We believe the Enfield No. 8 cadet training rifle was manufactured in the 1940s and 1950s. Despite an intensive search of archives, no records exist regarding the original procurement. I can confirm that none have been procured in the last ten years.
2. None of these rifles are held directly or in reserve.
3. None of these rifles have been gifted or sold as yet.
4. In relation to the Enfield No. 8 cadet rifle the below table gives details of those unserviceable rifles that have been sent for demilitarisation and subsequent disposal
Quantity Date
469 17/06/2011
499 17/06/2011
295 17/06/2011
1 22/02/2012
2 22/02/2012
9 20/03/2012
16 20/03/2012
24 22/04/2015
89 22/04/2015
103 22/04/2015
48 22/04/2015
43 22/04/2015
100. 22/04/2015
98 29/04/2015
51. 29/04/2015
122. 29/04/2015
95. 29/04/2015
1 20/07/2016
In addition to the above, 6,956 No 8 cadet rifles are to be released to the Defence Equipment Sales Authority for potential sale.
Under Section 16 of the Act (Advice and Assistance) you may find it helpful to note that no records of the Enfield Cadet No. 7 rifle could be found despite a search of archives. The Enfield Cadet No. 8 has been replaced by the Cadet Small Bore Training Rifle (CSBTR). The CSBTR is erroneously referred to in some quarters as the No. 9, but this description is not recognised by the MOD and no other rifle referred to as the No. 9 has been procured by the MOD. It is Government policy that small arms which are declared surplus by the MOD, other than automatic weapons which are routinely destroyed, are made available only to Governments, for use by acceptable military, paramilitary and police organisations, either directly or through duly licensed entities authorised to procure weapons. The MOD does not sell surplus weapons in the commercial market place. Any small arms not sold to other Governments are destroyed in line with tightly controlled procedures and sold as scrap metal. This activity is undertaken by the MOD’s Defence Equipment Sales Authority (DESA).
---------- Post added at 04:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:32 PM ----------
There is a small, albeit slight, chance that a suitable government buyer picks them up when they do become available for sale. It would be interesting if the US picked them up and what that could mean following their exit from the UN small arms treaty last year. I believe it’s the UN treaty that is behind the policy of not selling to commercial organisations and only selling to governments. If the US are no longer a signatory then they can sell to civilians and other organisations as they see fit. Personally I don’t think 22 target rifles are within the spirit of the scope of the UN treaty anyway but that’s just my opinion.
One question I do have is how much interest is there / was there in trying to save the remaining No.8’s? I know this was looked at a few years ago when there was a previous Secretary of State for defence. The current Secretary of State for defence is Ben Wallace:-
The Rt Hon Ben Wallace MP - GOV.UK
You probably know but the :Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveWales
No7 Mk1 was ordered by the RAF. Apparently 2500 were ordered and some 2000 (ish) supplied with the remaining (un assembled) actions being sold off. A few went to the USA and Brian Dick acquired some and had the bolt head and ejectors manufactured locally.
No 9 is also marked as N9 Some 3,000 were ordered from PH for the Navy
Production commenced in 1956, although we have yet to see a rifle dated prior to 1957, (i.e. P-H 57 as above). Of the 3,000 or so rifles apparently manufactured for the Royal Navy contract between 1956 and 1960, the serial numbers did not attain four figures until during 1958, and were marked as the Pattern Room example and the example shown above. The highest "A" prefixed number of which we are aware is A2828 - a rifle sold at Bonhams London auction in 2004. Later rifles produced by Parker-Hale had the markings engraved, as on the rifle shown higher up this page, and the serial numbers became five-figured with the prefix "PH". We have no information regarding the quantity of these rifles marketed, there being no information readily available relating to serial numbering. It is known that later 'reproductions' of the No.9 were produced by a well-known gunsmith in Birmingham in the late 1990s, using various spares. These too were produced with the usual beechwood furniture, and are very difficult to tell apart from rifles of original commercial manufacture.; indeed, even the PARKERIFLING marking was included on the barrel's crown. Whether or not the barrel carries modern proof, normally under the front section of the barrel ahead of the fore-end nose piece, could be a give-away here. Original rifles should also be fitted with the alloy butt-plate.
The Pattern Room collection's rifle is presumed to be a mid-production example marked "N." for Navy, whilst those later production rifles with the PH serial number prefix had this transposed to "No." and the markings, as shown on the rifle on this page, were engraved rather than stamped. That these rifles were notated "9" is something on which the reader may muse, particularly with regard to discussion above about British or Enfield rifle numbering.
https://www.rifleman.org.uk/Enfield_Rifle_No.9.html
I do think Ben Wallace MP given his background would understand the heritage aspects of the No.8. He is a former captain in the Scots Guards and also worked for the defence contractor QinetiQ as their overseas Director.
Alan,
A small correction. The 20 I bought from Springfield Sporters in the early 90's were complete except for the small parts in the bolt head, ejector and screws. I ordered the parts sets to fit and complete them from Edna Parker of AJP. It took a year to get them. I still have one with a matching bolt that I love to shoot. The rest are out there in collections in the USA.
---------- Post added at 02:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:40 PM ----------
I should add that I tried several times to have them manufactured over here and even loaned out the parts from mine for reverse engineering. I couldn't get a machine shop to do the job for less than a small fortune so abandoned the project.
Brian
These beauties are very rare in the Antipodes and I was fortunate enough to pick one up last year for a small fortune. It is built on a Savage No 4 Mk 1* body. The added attraction, to me, is that so few managed to find their way down here. As usual with Parker work, it's rugged, precise and highly reliable.
Which ones are you referring to (the thread has drifted a little)Quote:
Originally Posted by 22SqnRAE
No7 Mk1
CNo7 Mk1
No8 Mk1
N9
2000 No8's were manufactured specifically for NZ by BSA, I seem to remember that these were sold off in a big auction in NZ a couple of years ago.
Never say never, but, I'm pretty sure that Savage bodies were not involved with any of these trainers.
So out of curiosity, I wonder how many No 8's are already/still in private hands in the UK?
I have one, acquired it in 2018.
I first shot one around 1967/8 whilst in the Army and Air Cadets, so it has sentimental attachment, it will only be sold when I fall off my perch ;)
Alan, a good point and I recognise my comment was potentially obscure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield
I've and example of both No 8 and No 9. The 8 was specifically chosen as a UK sourced version and not a Kiwi one. There's enough connection across the ditch... The No 8 I have is made on a No 5 body.
I recall, having consulted the safe, that I was offered a selection of 4 different No 9's. I was intrigued by the No 4 Mk 1* body of the one of the No 9's on offer. However, on inspection (noting it's been a while since I've had a good look at this very valuable addition!) I selected a better condition No 9 built most likely on a M47C body. Most likely, as all the details on the left wrist were ground off by Parker Hale in rebuild.
I'll pull it out both and take some photos. Like you say (and any Lee Enfield tragic has already had it beaten into them) "Two words you shall remove from your (matter Lee Enfield...) vocabulary are: 'always' and 'never'!" ;)
Hi DavidQuote:
Originally Posted by David TS
I have one here in Cambridgeshire, also purchased in 2018 and I think it was brought back to the UK from Germany.
I first shot them in the CCF (air cadet) back in the early 1980s and as you say, they are full of memories!
Regards Mike
I was at that auction & there was at least one N9 that was built on Savage (or Long Branch) but in saying that, it might have been a NZ rebuild of a N9, NZ did that sort of thing many times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield