No 8 .22 rifles coming out of service

[DaveWales]

Hello

Out of interest I submitted a FoI to the MoD.

They have confirmed that they haven’t destroyed the no.8’s and they still hold 6956 rifles. 2065 unserviceable No.8’s have however been destroyed.

They will be sending the remaining rifles to DESA who will then try to sell them sometime in the future. If the cannot then they would be destroyed at that point in line with govt. policy.

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Alan de Enfield]

Hello

Out of interest I submitted a FoI to the MoD.

They have confirmed that they haven’t destroyed the no.8’s and they still hold 6956 rifles. 2065 unserviceable No.8’s have however been destroyed.

They will be sending the remaining rifles to DESA who will then try to sell them sometime in the future. If the cannot then they would be destroyed at that point in line with govt. policy.

Then they are still holding (& scrapped a high percentage) of the 15,000 manufactured by Fazakerley (There were an additional 2000 manufactured in the '50's by BSA specifically for export to New Zealand) I wonder what has happened to the other 6,000 ?

[DaveWales]

I don’t think the MoD records go back too far so I don’t think they know. They will have a records and retention policy that will initially archive and then destroy records. I think that’s why they have referenced ten years in their response. I’ve copied the full question I asked and response below.

Thank you for your email of 28th December 2019 requesting the following information:

I am submitting the following as a FoI request.

The scope of this request are all organisations financed through the MoD budget (i.e. Army, Royal Navy, RAF, reserves, cadet forces etc.).

For the No.7, No.8 and No.9 .22 cadet training rifles can you provide details of:
1. The volumes of rifles originally purchased broken down by rifle type, together with details of the year and month of purchase and the volume purchased from each manufacturer (I.e. BSA, Parker Hale or ROF Fazakerley).
2. Volumes of each rifle type currently held either directly or in reserve.
3. Details of all sales/gifts (I.e. month and year of sale, volume, types of rifle sold/gifted and recipient). If the rifle was deactivated before being sold/gifted can you identify these separately please.
4. Details of all disposals (I.e. month and year of destruction, volume and types of rifles destroyed.)

I am treating your correspondence as a request for information under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA).

A search for the information has now been completed within the Ministry of Defence (MOD), and I can confirm that some information in scope of your request is held.

The information you have requested can be found below.

1. We believe the Enfield No. 8 cadet training rifle was manufactured in the 1940s and 1950s. Despite an intensive search of archives, no records exist regarding the original procurement. I can confirm that none have been procured in the last ten years.
2. None of these rifles are held directly or in reserve.
3. None of these rifles have been gifted or sold as yet.
4. In relation to the Enfield No. 8 cadet rifle the below table gives details of those unserviceable rifles that have been sent for demilitarisation and subsequent disposal

Quantity Date
469 17/06/2011
499 17/06/2011
295 17/06/2011
1 22/02/2012
2 22/02/2012
9 20/03/2012
16 20/03/2012
24 22/04/2015
89 22/04/2015
103 22/04/2015
48 22/04/2015
43 22/04/2015
100. 22/04/2015
98 29/04/2015
51. 29/04/2015
122. 29/04/2015
95. 29/04/2015
1 20/07/2016

In addition to the above, 6,956 No 8 cadet rifles are to be released to the Defence Equipment Sales Authority for potential sale.

Under Section 16 of the Act (Advice and Assistance) you may find it helpful to note that no records of the Enfield Cadet No. 7 rifle could be found despite a search of archives. The Enfield Cadet No. 8 has been replaced by the Cadet Small Bore Training Rifle (CSBTR). The CSBTR is erroneously referred to in some quarters as the No. 9, but this description is not recognised by the MOD and no other rifle referred to as the No. 9 has been procured by the MOD. It is Government policy that small arms which are declared surplus by the MOD, other than automatic weapons which are routinely destroyed, are made available only to Governments, for use by acceptable military, paramilitary and police organisations, either directly or through duly licensed entities authorised to procure weapons. The MOD does not sell surplus weapons in the commercial market place. Any small arms not sold to other Governments are destroyed in line with tightly controlled procedures and sold as scrap metal. This activity is undertaken by the MOD’s Defence Equipment Sales Authority (DESA).

---------- Post added at 04:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:32 PM ----------

There is a small, albeit slight, chance that a suitable government buyer picks them up when they do become available for sale. It would be interesting if the US picked them up and what that could mean following their exit from the UN small arms treaty last year. I believe it’s the UN treaty that is behind the policy of not selling to commercial organisations and only selling to governments. If the US are no longer a signatory then they can sell to civilians and other organisations as they see fit. Personally I don’t think 22 target rifles are within the spirit of the scope of the UN treaty anyway but that’s just my opinion.

[DaveWales]

One question I do have is how much interest is there / was there in trying to save the remaining No.8’s? I know this was looked at a few years ago when there was a previous Secretary of State for defence. The current Secretary of State for defence is Ben Wallace:-

The Rt Hon Ben Wallace MP - GOV.UK

[Alan de Enfield]

One question I do have is how much interest is there / was there in trying to save the remaining No.8’s? I know this was looked at a few years ago.

You probably know but the :

No7 Mk1 was ordered by the RAF. Apparently 2500 were ordered and some 2000 (ish) supplied with the remaining (un assembled) actions being sold off. A few went to the USA and Brian Dick acquired some and had the bolt head and ejectors manufactured locally.

No 9 is also marked as N9 Some 3,000 were ordered from PH for the Navy

Production commenced in 1956, although we have yet to see a rifle dated prior to 1957, (i.e. P-H 57 as above). Of the 3,000 or so rifles apparently manufactured for the Royal Navy contract between 1956 and 1960, the serial numbers did not attain four figures until during 1958, and were marked as the Pattern Room example and the example shown above. The highest "A" prefixed number of which we are aware is A2828 - a rifle sold at Bonhams London auction in 2004. Later rifles produced by Parker-Hale had the markings engraved, as on the rifle shown higher up this page, and the serial numbers became five-figured with the prefix "PH". We have no information regarding the quantity of these rifles marketed, there being no information readily available relating to serial numbering. It is known that later 'reproductions' of the No.9 were produced by a well-known gunsmith in Birmingham in the late 1990s, using various spares. These too were produced with the usual beechwood furniture, and are very difficult to tell apart from rifles of original commercial manufacture.; indeed, even the PARKERIFLING marking was included on the barrel's crown. Whether or not the barrel carries modern proof, normally under the front section of the barrel ahead of the fore-end nose piece, could be a give-away here. Original rifles should also be fitted with the alloy butt-plate.

The Pattern Room collection's rifle is presumed to be a mid-production example marked "N." for Navy, whilst those later production rifles with the PH serial number prefix had this transposed to "No." and the markings, as shown on the rifle on this page, were engraved rather than stamped. That these rifles were notated "9" is something on which the reader may muse, particularly with regard to discussion above about British or Enfield Rifle numbering.

https://www.rifleman.org.uk/Enfield_Rifle_No.9.html