1896 LMC MK1 Type3

As promised for Simon, here are some pics of my Metford Carbine.

For the uninitiated and with thanks to the authority on these beasties, Coggansfield, the variations of Lee-Metford carbine are as follows:

Type 1: base model with D-ring (usually now missing) and butt sling bar. A total of 16,661 made, after deducting other subtypes and conversions to other models.

Type 2: made in spring 1896, with no D-ring but with the sling bar. Rare, 735 made in total.

Type 3: made from summer 1896 onward, with neither D-ring nor sling bar. Rare, probably about 800-850 made.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5/05/003-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5/05/005-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5/05/006-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5/05/008-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5/05/009-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...05/007_1-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5/05/018-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5/05/017-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5/05/010-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5/05/013-1.jpg

Please feel free to argue that it may be a type two upgraded to type three in service due to the repair in the butt.:cheers:

Very nice! Good to see it still has the screws to hold on the leather action cover. I've run across and owned several LMC and LEC over the years, and those screws are very often missing.

Ed

Truly a wonderful example. All matching and un-messed with. Thanks for posting it for us to see.

If you ever need a left testicle, I would trade you for it (well, maybe not the left one).

The butt stock is very interesting. The type 2 had the sling bar and associated inletting. Yours appears to be a factory modification to such a type 1 or 2 by patching the inletting.

I pondered for a while as why would the factory just not fit a new pattern butt? Well they certainly did with some if not most of the type 3 production. But what would they do with any inventory of the old pattern butt in stores? Of course, being frugal as ever, they modified the old inventory of sling bar butts to the new pattern, fitted it and out the door it went. So in essence a rare variation of butt stock on a rare variation of a rare carbine. Never seen this before and unlikely to see it again.

My type 2 is only a few hundred away in serial number. I will post some pics in the morning when I have some decent light.

Here she be. My Type 2 for comparison. I was way off with the serial number, not that close.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...a0na6z46-1.jpg[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...ps1giyst79.jpg[/IMG]https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...bbuxt6ew-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...dhyzmehq-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...pjaenjg0-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...t7vtffbb-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...l999s76b-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...g0vpxtps-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...bygfklwy-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1bonywxw-1.jpg

Still in sporter form, she waits her turn on the rack for repairs to the forearm.

Note the 'twin sisters' condemed marking on the nock's form. havn't figured out why just yet. I need a guage to check the throat but it looks good with the neked eye.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by englishman_ca

Note the 'twin sisters' condemed marking on the nock's form

---

Condemned? Or sold out of service?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by englishman_ca

Note the 'twin sisters' condemed marking on the nock's form. havn't figured out why just yet. I need a guage to check the throat but it looks good with the neked eye.

---

As with the DP on mine.

I suspect the Metford rifling had a fair bit to do with it.

---------- Post added at 04:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:21 PM ----------

Just thinking out loud here, but your Type 2 has serial number A9609 whilst my Type 3 is A7452 which leads me to consider two options.

Mine is a Type 2 that has had the sling bar removed in service, or yours is a Type 3 that has had the butt replaced with an earlier version. :dunno:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lithy

As with the DP on mine.

I suspect the Metford rifling had a fair bit to do with it.

---------- Post added at 04:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:21 PM ----------

Just thinking out loud here, but your Type 2 has serial number A9609 whilst my Type 3 is A7452 which leads me to consider two options.

Mine is a Type 2 that has had the sling bar removed in service, or yours is a Type 3 that has had the butt replaced with an earlier version. :dunno:

---

Lithy, I saw an 1896 LMC at an AAA auction serial number A8296 and it had the sling bar in the but also, but this may not be conclusive either because I had reservations about the butt and/or the butt disc. The disc was marked with an issue date of 7/1895.
You have a very nice carbine there. Have you owned it long?

One can guess much from serial numbers, but a large sample is needed to see a pattern develop. A8296 could well be a Type 2. But the 1895 marked butt disc is obviously not original to the 1896 dated carbine.


1895 LMC Type 1, D ring removed, sight cover screws added, serial 2854A
1895 LMC Type 1, D ring intact. serial 5214A ex Canadian service
1895 LMC Type 1, D ring intact, serial 5699A likely ex Canadian
1895 LMC Type 1, D ring intact, serial 5817A likely ex Canadian
1896 LMC Type 2, no D ring, serial 9609A (or as suggested, a type 3 with a sling bar butt replacement)

Canada purchased only 500 LMC arms in 1895, but their serial numbers do not appear to have been sequential as their spread is greater than 500.

---------- Post added at 07:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:33 PM ----------

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Condemned? Or sold out of service?

---

The twin sisters, being a double capital R back to back is a condemned marking. I guess that a condemned rifle could be converted to a DP, but this one hasn't.

---------- Post added at 07:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:37 PM ----------

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lithy

As with the DP on mine.

I suspect the Metford rifling had a fair bit to do with it.

---------- Post added at 04:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:21 PM ----------

Just thinking out loud here, but your Type 2 has serial number A9609 whilst my Type 3 is A7452 which leads me to consider two options.

Mine is a Type 2 that has had the sling bar removed in service, or yours is a Type 3 that has had the butt replaced with an earlier version. :dunno:

---

For sure, my carbine has a later (higher) serial number than yours. So let's just assume that it is later production. I note that yours has had the sight cover screws added, which, if I recall correctly was an 1897 onwards retrofit. Your wrist strap has several factory rework markings, so perhaps the butt was brought into line with pattern arms when the screws were added by patching the sling bar inletting. That would lead me to suggest that they are both type 2 carbines. Only guess work, I can't back it up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by englishman_ca

The twin sisters, being a double capital R back to back is a condemned marking.

---

First time I've heard that. Thanks...

Now thinking on about a butt disc dated 7/1895. I have this 1895 dated LMC with the D ring removed and sight screws added (screws not shown fitted, they were in an ash tray on my work bench, and I have this young kitten....).

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...6rbw0bco-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...smqqgcpz-1.jpg
The butt disc has a rack number 541.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...niogk9zk-1.jpg

The same rack number is marked on the butt socket

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...mnhjqhae-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...rtqudoxx-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...nuvqrgnu-1.jpg

The disc has been crudely canceled using a '1' character and 11 18 applied. The unit markings are still evident. There is a story that came with this carbine, that it once might have been carried by this young officer of the Queens Own 4th Hussars.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...exzlfv7w-1.jpg

Interesting carbine Englishman_ca. I've got a 4H marked p'90 trooper's sword that probably shared a parade ground with that one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HarryB

Lithy, I saw an 1896 LMC at an AAA auction serial number A8296 and it had the sling bar in the but also, but this may not be conclusive either because I had reservations about the butt and/or the butt disc. The disc was marked with an issue date of 7/1895.
You have a very nice carbine there. Have you owned it long?

---

Must have missed that one. How long ago?

I've had this one for about 5-6 years. Another one of the times when the vendor thought he knew what he had and I paid Type 1 top dollar. We both parted as happy campers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by englishman_ca

For sure, my carbine has a later (higher) serial number than yours. So let's just assume that it is later production. I note that yours has had the sight cover screws added, which, if I recall correctly was an 1897 onwards retrofit. Your wrist strap has several factory rework markings, so perhaps the butt was brought into line with pattern arms when the screws were added by patching the sling bar inletting. That would lead me to suggest that they are both type 2 carbines. Only guess work, I can't back it up.

---

I concur but will still call it a Type 3 as that is it's current configuration.

[QUOTE=Lithy;331563]Must have missed that one. How long ago?

I've had this one for about 5-6 years. Another one of the times when the vendor thought he knew what he had and I paid Type 1 top dollar. We both parted as happy campers.



It was in May auction last year. It was a nice one too, all matching except for rear sight which was correct type and a good bore as well.

Hell fella's. I am a new member and it's an honor to be a part of this group. Not to get of subject and don't want to take up to much of y'all's time. The reason for my post is, both my folks have passed on to greener pastures and grew up during the 2nd War and and Great Depression and I can't imagne what it must have been like growing up and have the upmost respect for not only my folks but all Americans during and before there time. As I have been going threw everything my folks have left me I have come learned a lot about my family's history. Out of what I've discovered and come across so far this one box is very interesting to my and would like to share. Letters from the Spanish and american war of 1898 from one of the soilder's of the war what I'd like to say was letters to his family back home. Another thing that caught my eye was on one of the envelop's is on one side is the American flag with only 45 stars on it. Since that time the United States has added 7 stars. I would like some advice and am interested in maybe selling them to the right person that has knowledge and can pass them on to others.

Thank you gentleman
John

Englishman CA,
I also have a 4H marked carbine, mine being dated 1896 is a LEC1. The rack number is 168 on the disc, but 405 on the butt. Mine was also issued to the Mounties, as indicated on the butt by an oval roundel - was yours?
See pics of mine at Help with LEC1 buttstock marking
Rob

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...exzlfv7w-1.jpg

The young Winston Churchill.

At Lithy's request, here is some additional information regarding MLM Carbine production,
Between 1897 and 1904, 5,466 barrels with body, or barrelled actions were produced as spare components,at Enfield.As described these consisted of a receiver with barrel attached,with sights,and a bolt, all serial numbered, basically a MLM Mk I carbine, minus the woodwork and smaller components,So to the total figure of 18,686 Mk I carbines, should be added another 5,466. Although it is possible that not all of these addional barrelled actions were fully assembled with components to make up a complete carbine, they should still be considered in the production totals.