Its a bit off subject but may be of interest to Collectors of British Issued Weapons, Ithaca 1911 that I got the chance to view this morning. British Government Disposal marks dated 1952.
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Its a bit off subject but may be of interest to Collectors of British Issued Weapons, Ithaca 1911 that I got the chance to view this morning. British Government Disposal marks dated 1952.
Lend lease I expect? Nice piece though.
"British Government Disposal marks"?
Same thoughts as Beery here so sorry to be a pessimist................ Engraved disposal marks! If they engraved every weapon they disposed of there'd still be a queue waiting to be done. Never seen it before or heard of marks like that BUT, having said that, I'nve never been a trader or dealer either. Maybe there's another so marked out there.
Very common in the US. I have two, a Ithaca and a Remington, still need to add a Colt but I have one with uncommon Canadian markings so the desire is not great to drop the coin. Plus the .455 WWI Colt. Per the records Britain never received lend lease US&S 1911A1's, but I am still hoping to find one!
Interesting piece, I would suppose these marks were made by the US importer, the only offical British disposal markings that I am aware, are the >< SS "Sold out of Service" divergent arrows, but was this practice carried on to this date??
Like Peter I have never heard of us doing that. Even the Sold Out of Service mark appears to have been quietly dropped post-wwII. I reckon the "released .... etc" was applied by a US importer.
I see that the OP's picture also has a pre-1954 Birmingham View Proof mark.
The second picture of the four posted later, contains two British civilian Proof marks. "Not English Make" and the Birmingham Proof House crossed sceptres Date Code mark. Noting to do with the Government.
The third picture clearly shows a Canadian Government ownership mark - Broad Arrow inside a letter "C".
An the final picture looks like it has more Birmingham Proof marks. It ought to have some British Acceptance marks as well, being one of the .455 M1911s (all the rest are M1911A1s) bought by the British Government during the Great War. It MAY also have an opposed Broad Arrows Sold Out of Service mark.
Are you guys sure those are engraved marks?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
The left hand original pic looks like it could be stamped but not quite square - or engraved while not horizontal and the cutter/scratchy pen doesn't cut/mark the lower part of the letters. But they could be both although stamping usually leaves a slightly raised edge due to the (slightly) displaced metal.
But I don't ever recall seeing this in the little handbook of markings. Wish I'd taken the grubby oil stained one in the in-inspectors bay!
It's just struck me. The British Government would not mark stuff like this "British Government". In those days they would have used WD (War Department) or AM (Air Ministry) for example or even MoS (Ministry of Supply). That is to say a Department of State rather than the "Government" as such.
We didn't even have a proper Ministry of Defence covering the three services until the 1960s. (Yes I know that Churchill called himself the Minster of Defence during the Second World War but there was no Ministry as such. MD1 does NOT count! After WWII until, the 1960s, although they nominally reported to the MoD, the three services were essentially independent.)
You're not wrong there. 'H.M.G.' maybe on a cold day in a very hot place, but 'BRITISH GOVERNMENT'? Not likely considering for example the 'O.H.M.S.' marked envelopes I received over a few decades.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beerhunter
That reminds me, when we poodled off to BAOR (British Army f the Rhine), as we did from time to time, we labels that we tied to kit were printed: "On Her Britannic Majesty's Service". We had thousands of the things, I wish I had kept one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul S.
Just a thought could it have been applied to counteract the US Property mark to make them legal to sell in the US.
I'm just starting to get in to Colt 1911s and saw this one, at least it has sparked some good debate & comments.
You're right Simon. It's clearly not a one-off as they exist in the USA. On the same subject, anyone out there remember toilet rolls with each sheet bearing the mark GOVERNMENT PROPERTY. I mean......, as if anyone would steal a couple of rolls. As you can imagine, as a nearly 16 year old new apprentice after a cushy life at home and boarding school it was like wiping your tender bottom with thin cardboard. You could probably have used those sheets of toilet paper instead of wire gauze on Bren barrels.
I wonder if anyone else in the US has sen or encountered the mark................. Anyone?
They had a waxy finish so you could smear things around and dry everything faster? I remember those.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
I always wondered why the true waxy finish was like that. We were told it was so that you could wash them again - and again - and again - pretty well indefinately
This the stuff ?
Also doubles up as tracing paper as well.
That's the stuff................... An illustration of mans inhumanity to man. That is to toilet tissue what ISIS is to tolerance!
Did this thread ever wander...
And wouldn't the British Government at the time be more likely to refer to itself as "HM Government"?
Probably...Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel Enfield
Theres another one listed on the 1911 forum that has the same makings, but on the frame this time:
Colt 1911 govt serial C61535
I wonder if the the proof house applied the markings under instruction?
In my opinion, the Proof Houses, being British, would know not to use "British Government" which I think that we all agree would simply not be used this side of the pond.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon P
BTW, I just noticed: the first picture is Birmingham Proofed and the second London but the "Released etc." marking is identical. It's not like the two Proof Houses to use the same mark.
I still reckon that this mark is to un-British to have been applied here.
I'd guess they were applied by the British exporter. There is no US requirement for those type marks on a post 1968 import. Importers here have their own set of marking requirements. There have only been a couple of windows in which importers in the USA post 1968, could even bring in Lend Lease curio and relic firearms legally. This was only once you obtained a retransfer authorization from Dept. of State first. Without it, BATFE Imports Branch wouldn't approve the import permit. One window was under the Reagan administration in 1986 which ended in 1988 I think under GHW Bush with his import ban on military semi auto lookalikes and the other during the GW Bush administration in 2005. The Obummer administration ended it again in September 2013.