To bed or not to bed a Lee Enfield No.1 Mk 3

I would be very pleased if you guys here could offer me some advice. I am rather young and I'll be honest in saying I don't even have a Lee Enfield in my hands just quite yet. However, I want to learn and read as much as possible before thinking about messing around (or getting someone to mess around for me) with one of these historic rifles. The Lee Enfield has a special place in my heart as the rifle my countrymen and the rest of the British Empire fought with. As you know, people who stood behind this rifle were of every nationality and race, fighting for the same King and Empire, so this rifle means a lot to me and you can be sure I would like to take care of it and make it the best it could be.

With the No.1 Mk 3, I want to make the rifle as accurate as 1-2 MOA but at the same time I don't want to possibly damage the rifle and wreck its originality by bedding it with something like epoxy. I was thinking about using cork but as I've read so far from Peter Laidler, that isn't exactly going to do the job very well since cork could shrink over time and the with all the results of the testing done with different methods of bedding, it isn't the one to provide the most accurate results.

In short I don't really want anything big done on the rifle that will be permanent and irreversible but I want to make the rifle accurate enough for competition. Is there anyway to go about doing that?

I am terribly sorry if my questions seem a bit daft or jumbled up! Like I said I am a bit young and still trying to learn. Thank you in advance.

First thing is it depends on the type of competition you wish to do. If its service rifle then the spirit of the event should be followed, ie if the rules state as issued only no mods allowed then you should obey this. If like me however you shoot prone target style then the rifle has to be accurised to be allowed to shoot on the range. Since my rifles have been acurised by the likes of Parker Hale and then later by tinkerers there is no huge loss in value for me if I epoxy it further as they are not original. If you want a good, as stock shooter then the Pattern1914 is worth considering and the No4 mk2 as the two better choices to start with IMHO. If your competition rules allows the "H" barrels in the no1 mkIII then this would be the setup to find. So first thing is what competition(s) will you be shooting in? I do service rifle and target so have guns for each, "as issued" and modified.

Thanks for your reply. What if I decided to get the SMLE for as issued service rifle shooting and a No. 4 for "prone target style?" I would like to know the two different routes.

Btw at Camp Perry/Bisley and similar competitions, bedding isn't allowed right?

If you have no experience with Enfields (or other rifles) then don't even consider accurising issues at this stage.

You really need to obtain a standard No1 MkIII and/or a No4, and spend a lot of time shooting them and understanding how they work.

IMHO, trying to accurise a No1 is a complete waste of time unless you already an accomplished shot with the standard rifle. Most No1s can be made to shoot very well in their standard military configuration. If you are not familiar with the existing tuning methods for the standard rifle, then you'll end up simply butchering an innocent rifle by trying to introduce different bedding.

In the case of No4s, I'd estimate that about 90% of standard rifles can already easily outperform the capabilities of their owners....


In terms of competition regulation, rifles (at Bisley) are categorised as "issued" ("service rifle A" SRa) or modified ("service rifle B" or SRb). A modified rifle will exclude you from standard service competitions, whereas a well-shot standard rifle is eligible for all competitions.


BTW, of the hundreds of rifles I have tested, the absolute top five No1s and top five No4s were all standard rifles. Its very subjective as to whether its the extra bedding that makes a difference at all. By far the greatest influences are (1) barrel condition (2) ammunition (3) the shooter...

There are so many variables to be answered here BM one could rabbit on for days with no conclusive answer, you could buy a shagged weapon with umpteen faults, best to shop around and utilize the local knowledge where you live and on this site to procure the weapon and go from there. After field trials at the range the panel and wise pelicans here can then hopefully assist with the results you may encounter good and bad but seriously like the rest of us you will never stop at just owning one they are that addictive..............:thup:

Where are you and what club do you shoot with? The reason I ask is it might have some bearing on what you can get and what rules are in force.
For instance in Australia there will be more heavy barrelled SMLEs than say the USA.
Does the club you are in have many people shooting No4s and SMLEs? If so talk to members, esp the ones who get high scores!
At best one of them might be selling a rifle or might be able to 'Test' one that you are thinking of buying.
As others have said you need to establish your level of shooting so that you can be confident when shooting your SMLE or No 4 that it is not a faulty one.
If your shooting is not up to scratch it is too easy to blame the rifle.
Thunderbox at Post No 4 has given the best advice so I suggest you take your time and follow it.

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Originally Posted by ssj

If you want a good, as stock shooter then the Pattern1914 is worth considering and the No4 mk2 as the two better choices to start with IMHO.

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Originally Posted by Thunderbox

If you have no experience with Enfields (or other rifles) then don't even consider accurising issues at this stage.

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Take the wise advice of these experts. Keep it simple to start. A No.4 Mk2 can be bought very reasonably in near-to-brand-new condition. Or buy a No.4 Mk1/2 or Mk1/3 FTR that has been Factory Thorough Repaired and then surplused (everything on it is essentially "factory reconditioned."). I like ssj's suggestion of a P-14 (it's heavy which has its +/-) but you might not find a WWI gun in as perfect condition as a No.4 Mk2 or FTR.

Can you clarify what exactly you are thinking of bedding with cork/epoxy? Is it the receiver or barrel or both? I believe that the No4 had a fully floating barrel.

Nope.......... No4 had a bedded barrel for 2" x 3/8" wide, centrally at the muzzle end! Plus for the length of the Nocks form x3/8" too. There WAS a wartime relaxation but that was rescinded as soon as the war ended. There was never a relaxation for the No1 or the No4T

I totally agree with Thunderbox and I had no intention of doing anything to the rifle until I properly understood the rifle and could shoot it well. His advice is pretty logical and it is something I will stick by for sure. While it is too early for me to seriously start considering accurizing the rifle, I don't think it hurts to ask how the bedding works on the SMLE because I am genuinely interested.

@Robert I'm in Canada, where No.4's seem to be more popular than SMLE's.
@Flying I don't really have anything specific in mind, whatever can be bedded and should be bedded to improve accuracy on a SMLE.

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Originally Posted by British Mandarin

I'm in Canada, where No.4's seem to be more popular than SMLE's.

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Wave the Maple Leaf and buy a Long Branch (either a No. Mk1/3 which has the trigger upgraded, or a 1949-50, many of which are in like-new condition)

In the US these can still be purchased for under $400. I'm not sure what the price/demand is in Canada, but we have a dozen Milsurp experts from Canada following this thread that can give you good leads or maybe have one in their closet collecting dust that needs a good home.

I just had a thought. Maybe I could save myself all the trouble by getting a Fulton regulated SMLE? Might cost a lot, but the Lee Enfield is the only rifle I intend to own.

BM: Personally I find the SMLE easier to shoot at distance than the No. 4- quirk of the eyes, perhaps? The 0.10 inch apertures on the No. 4 are pretty coarse. I would suggest you heed all the advice presented here and put your efforts into finding the best possible original condition rifle of whichever type you go with. By original condition I mean "as issued, maintained, or repaired" for the initial user- some branch of some army. You want one with an excellent bore that sits in the wood the way it was meant to. If you go SMLE you might look for a WW2 vintage or WW2 or later refurb. Wood does deteriorate and a forend installed by factory in the fifties is likely going to still be OK. One of my early ones was a '21 Lithgow that had been re-barreled by the Australians in '42 and, apparently, not used afterwards. The wood is excellent and the bore is perfect and it shoots far better than I do. Watch out for rifles "desporterized" by hobbyists. They aren't all up to snuff.

Ridolpho

Ah last question. The PH5A sight for the No.1 Mk 3 requires no drilling or anything to mount it right? I just wanted to double check with an article I read. Are there any similar sights that require no drilling?

There are earlier BSA No 9 sights and a few Australian Central Sights. go to Service and TArget Rifle Sights ~ Parker-Hale and B.S.A. for the full description. If you have trouble geting the screwx to fix the %A onto the rfle with just PM me and I can pass on details of supliers. If buying a 5A try to make sure it is NOT bent! There is NO need what so ever to drill an SMLE for a target sight.

Enfields can due to their age and [ab]use now shoot very badly ie 4 ~6 MOA and you cant learn to shoot on a gun that sprays all over the place randomly which bad ones can do. Making these work can be a huge effort so I'd suggest you dont bother especially if you dont know how to shoot? Otherwise if you want to learn to shoot and shoot service rifle I'd suggest an Ar15. Or if you really want an Enfield a pattern1914.

Mandarin, here's my 5c:
I would start by joining my local historical shooting club. Then, at the range, you are bound to find a few nice fellows who will let you have a go with their .303s.
When you have decided on a model to buy, and have found a good candidate rifle, you should ask either to test it at the range (preferably); or at the least, to be shown a target that the rifle has shot in the hands of someone else.
Sadly, some rifles can't group for toffee and others mysteriously fail to stabilise the bullet (let the bullets keyhole), while others are tack drivers which are a joy to shoot.
Yet no visual inspection can reliably tell you how they will shoot.
I bet all of us have had a mixture of bad and good rifles, and getting rid of a bad one is far more difficult than you might imagine...

There's no mystery to a key holing problem Rob. It just means the rifle has been shot extensively with cordite ammo and the wear pattern in the leade or throat will no longer stabilize the projectile. The problem really only presents itself when boat tail projectiles are used. I really wish one of the big manufacturers would produce a flat base Mk.7 projectile. It's been discussed at length here before. I went 'round and 'round with Sierra about it. I even sent them pulled projectiles for study. Unfortunately, I don't have the thousands of dollars it will take for them to tool up. In North America we can shoot the 180 grain Pro Hunters and their equivalent but they're no good for you since soft point hunting projectiles are prohibited for target shooting. Manufacturers like Remington and Winchester have the tooling and have been producing excellent Mk.7z ammo for ever but only Remington-UMC puts out the ammo with a batch produced every now and again. Winchester doesn't even offer it.

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

I went 'round and 'round with Sierra about it

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Have you went to Hornady with your idea? They're already making several oddball bullets for specific applications. The .268 Carcano. .330'' 8x56R, .330'' Lebel Revolver and .320'' Nambu come to mind. Perhaps they could be persuaded to make one more.

Nope, I'll leave it to someone else now. I've got too much other stuff on my plate.

these are made here in Aus
not cheap though
174gr .311 FB OT | B T Energetics

Did you come through a time-slip by any chance? You sound like another chap born a 100 years too late. :D ;)

King & Empire? You'll want an SMLE, but get a Ross as well. That was what they had at St. Julien and other places.

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Originally Posted by British Mandarin

I just had a thought. Maybe I could save myself all the trouble by getting a Fulton regulated SMLE? Might cost a lot, but the Lee Enfield is the only rifle I intend to own.

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The regulated No4 rifles are honestly a handful to keep accurate needing constant attention, centre beded this and that doweled all over the place, each one different, just painful and frustrating. If you want an accurised target rifle buy a Pattern1914 done by Fultons or Parkerhale (did AJP do them?). Otherwise for a no4 start with a good condition standard nose bedded ie as issued rifle No4 mk2. Both the No4 and p14 have replacement match grade barrels available from Criterion and parts are not too bad. The SMLE is again a crankly rifle when not stock unless it has a H barrel in which case its free floated (though sometimes, not) LOL. Criterion are supposedly doing barrels are year end, maybe. So if you want to spend hours fiddling and going back and forth the range etc trying to make a "tuned" no4 work, well go ahead.