My Carbines, Old and New - with a twist

You all know that I am a huge fan of the M1 Carbine as a defensive weapon. I carried one for much of my LEO career as a trunk weapon, and has been a primary home/farm defensive carbine for me during my LEO career, and the 15 years since I retired. I have killed deer at 100 yards with it, and have no doubt it would do the same to two legged Goblins or Zombie's at that range.

Through the years, though, I have looked for an M1 carbine replacement with more "Pizzazz!" For some reason my 7.62x39 AK and Mid-length AR 5.56 build, just seem to be "too much" for a home defense carbine, and not nearly as handy for a wilderness camping rifle. Nothing seemed as "correct" as the M1 Carbine that I always go back to. I tried Mini-14s and Mini-30s, but until recently, they were not an option. With their whippy thin barrel and dismal (flimsy rear and mile high, unprotected front blade) iron sights, accuracy was not even close to my Inland M1 Carbine.

Then I had a chance to shoot a new Generation 580 series with the heavier stepped/tapered barrel and M1 Carbine style factory sights! OMG! It is like an M1 Carbine with a hard on! Shooting 77 grain MK 262 MOD1 5.56 ammo, it will do at 300 yards was an M1 Carbine will do at 100. I promptly traded in an excess 9mm as a down payment and picked one up a used one at my favorite local gunshop. 2014 Production, 99.9% finish, for $750 out the door.

I still have (Ruger factory and Thermold) "legally possessed by me in California prior to 1-12000" high capacity magazines from my prior Minii-14 forays.


As you can see, the size, handling, and weight are comparable between my Inland M1 Carbine with a 30 rounder in the weapon and two 15s in a stock pouch, and my new Mini with a factory 20 rounder in the weapon, and a single 30 rounder in a stock mag pouch. Even camping out in my mountains, as with the M1 Carbine, if I can't handle the situation with a high cap mag in the weapon, and another 30 rounds in a pouch on the stock, I need prayers more than I need more ammo!

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Jeff Cooper, in his 1975 Guns and Ammo Magazine review of the newly introduced Ruger Mini-14 compared it to the M1 Carbine, thinking of it as a logical evolution of the M1 Carbine concept, comparing its handling as identical to the M1 Carbine.

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I also can't help but wonder if the Winchester entry into the 1957 CONRAC Lightweight Rifle Trails (the Winchester .224 Light Rifle) also influenced Bill Ruger's team when they started to design the Min-14 in 1972/1973. The Winchester Light rifle was influenced by Winchester's 1941 M1 Carbine development, and actually represents the Military's natural next logical enhancement of the M1 Carbine, based on traditional weapon ideology. Armalite's next step was so far outside the box of conventional military "wisdom" that it almost never got off the ground.

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The proprietary .224 Winchester cartridge was nearly identical to the .222 Remington Special (later renamed .223) used in the AR14 development. The Winchester round shot a 53 grain projectile at 3300 FPS. While the case was almost identical to the 223, it used a shorter bullet with a more rounded ogive, that was seated deeper in the case. Winchester round on the left...

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Here are a couple links. The first is to an article on on the Winchester .224 light rifle, and the second is a PDF of the original manual.

Springfield Armory Museum - Collection Record

http://www.replicaplans.com/Firearms...24%20rifle.pdf

I'd like to shoot a few of those older test guns for fun, I'll bet they'd make a sweet sporter...golphers and such...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

The proprietary .224 Winchester cartridge was nearly identical to the .222 Remington Special (later renamed .223) used in the AR15 development. The Winchester round shot a 53 grain projectile at 3300 FPS. While the case was almost identical to the 223, it used a shorter bullet with a more rounded ogive, that was seated deeper in the case. Winchester round on the RIGHT...

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errata on earlier post

That is a very interesting comparison between the M1 carbine and the Ruger Mini-14. As you can imagine, my very next thought was converting a Mini-30 to .30 Carbine! I think I could almost do it myself.

Yeah, I know, he didn't invent the carbine let alone do it in prison. But I find it somewhat comical that Clarkson typically gets all the credit for the Winchester .224 entry for the light rifle trials that chose the Armalite design.

Being a retired cop I got fed up with all the "Carbine Williams" bravado and decided to make Williams a special needs project to document what his real involvement was in killing the deputy sheriff that landed him in prison, what he really did in prison, and what he really did afterwards.

The research took me to the NC Museum of History, NC State Archives, Fayetteville Court House, the Williams homestead, the MGM Collection by The Academy of Motion Pictures Arts and Science, Special Collections, Margaret Herrick Library, Beverly Hills, ... along with the Cody Museum and their McCracken Research Library in Cody, WY.

When the American Rifleman issue with Canfield's article on the G30 hit the mail boxes, I was literally doing a photo shoot of the G30 and parts at the NC Museum of History.

The end result was a heck of an experience and the six web pages I have on Williams with what I found, including downloads of copies of many of the documents.

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Williams.html

Check the 4th page for what he did during his time at Winchester. I was able to shoot a limited number of pics of a few of the prototypes and carbines. Would have liked to have done a photo spread at Cody and the NC Museum of History as it only needs to be done once but they have the rules they do for a very good reason. And their own photographers who are rightfully territorial about their means of income.

My main goal at Cody was to get pics of the carbine prototypes and others concocted by Williams to show people which carbine he did invent. That carbine prototype and the rifle that preceded it were the design Clarkson came up with for the Winchester .224.

The Winchester G30 Rifle
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NC Museum of History

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Pic I shot with their permission

The Williams .30 Carbine Prototype
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McCracken Research Library

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On display at Cody Museum, pic I took

A Williams prototype for a .30 Carbine for sporting use
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Cody Museum

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Pic I took. This one is in their vault and not on display. More pics on the website.
Very educational research project.

And yes, there was ample proof beyond a reasonable doubt and unto a moral certainty Williams was the one who murdered Deputy Alfred Pate of the Cumberland County Sheriff's Office. The hung jury was a sanity trial, not a criminal trial that would have followed. 11-1 for sanity. Retrial on sanity was set to go when Williams wisely took the guilty plea for the jail term instead of going for the death penalty. Check out the documents on my web pages. I was also able to locate a couple family descendants of the deputy and shared what I found with them.

Though you may or may not know me for my websites, I would much rather be doing these kind of research projects and photo shoots. But to not share them would let all the work and history die with me. Which would negate the value of all the work I did.

Jim

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sleeplessnashadow

I would much rather be doing these kind of research projects and photo shoots. But to not share them would let all the work and history die with me. Which would negate the value of all the work I did.

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Thanks so much Jim. Your commitment and standards of excellence are laudable. I appreciate your insights and thoroughness - the mark of a true professional. Historical accuracy is the only way to bust the myths (def: half-truth linked to a half-lie, peddled as the whole truth). Personally I'd love to know more about the pics (above). Sounds like quite a back-story to be told.

Robert

Sleeplessnashadow thanks for all your detailed research. I was very interested in the back story on David Williams, however when I started to read the information I was stunned to find out that Mr. Williams mother's maiden name was that of my grandmother. When I checked our families records, there it was, Laura Kornegay was his mother and the cousin of Geneva Kornegay, my grandmother.
Also an interesting point, completely off topic for this forum Laura's brother was married to James Williams sister Bessie on the same day Laura and James were married. Perhaps a double barreled shotgun wedding;)

Thanks,
RichardX

Robert,

The pictures above were an evolution in designs that are explained chronologically on the page devoted to Williams at Winchester. http://www.uscarbines.com/williams5.html

Below is a Winchester G30 designed by Williams after being given the project started by Jonathan Edmund Browning, half brother of John and Matt Browning. This rifle design was the reason Winchester jumped in on the light rifle competition for what would become the M1 Carbine. This one is on display at the Cody Museum.

Attachment 65517

One design Williams did come up that was used by others (among them, Clarkson) in their two Winchester prototypes that became the M1 Carbine.

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A carbine part design Williams has never really gotten recognition for...

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What got me started on Williams as a special project were the stories he told and others edited and printed regarding his involvement in the murder that landed him in prison. I had come across a post written by the deputy's niece as a follow on to his obituary. What she posted motivated me into this project.

I was well aware of the story of Williams in War Baby I. I wanted to present it from the perspective of showing what he really did do. Not to boost the man's image or ruin the man's image, he did that successfully on his own. I wanted to show evidence to document history as it was, not as the myths that are still being told. With evidence that speaks for itself.

Williams was not a man I would have personally cared for. But history is what history was and my personal opinion of the man was/is not something relevant to that history. He was his own worst enemy and paid for it in many ways I chose to leave out as they were also not relevant to this history.

Jim

I want to share some photos of the 224 Winchester that Jim Mock sent me, with his permission. As you will see, the 224 Winchester is basically scaled up version of William's Carbine prototype (different than the one actually used in trials and adopted). Strange that Williams, trying to grab more credit than he deserved for the M1 Carbine, that he didn't claim the 224 Light Rifle, too. It was closer to his Carbine design than any other weapon (except Winchester G30- his design). Jim shares some interest in the .224 Winchester Light Rifle, especially as its foundations with Williams designs. Jim got the pictures at the Cody Museum. Thanks Jim.

As I said, the following are his pictures that I am sharing with his express permission. If you re-post, please give Jim the Photo credits.

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Just curious, what did the research on his legal problems have to do with his gun designs? I mean, he materially contributed to the 'light rifle' project and Winchester was not able to destroy his memory despite their best propaganda efforts because people already knew what he did. Americans like an 'under dog' more than anything, especially when he is a somewhat 'shady' and flamboyant character who has been railroaded by a big corporation. 'Carbine' Williams is as much of the mystique of the carbine as Audie Murphy, and a lot more than 'what's his face' at Winchester who tried to diminish William's contributions at every turn.

Williams was instrumental in the Carbines development, but only some of his ideas. Because of personality conflicts (like threatening to shoot co-workers) he worked solo much of the time. Another team developed the carbine delivered for trials. This design had a few Williams features, like the short stroke piston. Williams built a totally different design prototype that was never given to the Military for trials. His prototype had more in common with the .224 light rifle than it did with the Carbine the others designed. He should have gotten more credit for the Light rifle than the carbine.

Americans not only like underdogs, they love the lonesome hero, especially in the inventor role. We idolize John Browning, the Edison of gun design.

(However, it's actually part of the Edison "myth" that he was the sole inventor of over 1000 inventions that were patented under his name. Reality: Edison was a master of running collaborative innovation teams.)

We still refer to "Lee - Enfields" to idolize one of the innovators: James Paris Lee (1831-1904), a (Scottish-born) American arms inventor who designed, among other things, the box magazine that allowed for the development of bolt-action repeating rifles. But all the evolutions of the Enfields were done by teams for the next fifty years.

John Garand was genius inventor, but how many other guns, like the M-1 Carbine were the result of a design team?

Carbine Williams was not a team player, just the opposite. Hollywood loves to create myths, but the realities are that the higher the complexity of a problem, the more collaboration is necessary to solve problems and create integrated solutions. During WWII, when so many new technologies were developed that significantly impacted the outcome of the war, all the major innovations were the result of creative design teams: Sonar, Radar, Proximity Fuse, Analog Gun Fire Computers, fighter planes, tanks, and the list goes on. Even though Kelly Johnson played a key leadership role, it was his Skunk Works team that developed the P-38, SR-71, and many others.

So, as difficult it might be to accept, the lonesome hero inventor is actually an anomaly, one we love to write stories about, but a very scarce reality in today's world of complex technological integration.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by INLAND44

Just curious, what did the research on his legal problems have to do with his gun designs?

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The object of my research was separating the legend of "Carbine Williams" from the realities of David Marshal Williams. The firearms he claimed to have designed were but part of the myth. What took the myth to the level of a legend was his "incorrigible youth" that included his trial for murder and time in prison during which he became the gun designer who later "invented" the M1 Carbine. To focus on his involvement with the M1 Carbine alone would not address the authenticity of the legend, what he really did invent and never really got credit for or the man who was David Marshall Williams. His time at Winchester was the highlight of the myth and legend but it wasn't the foundation that made and still makes the legend so appealing.

The myth started when Williams published "The Williams Story" by David Marshall Williams (copyrighted by Williams February 9, 1951 - Copyright AA0000174857) along with the interview he did that resulted in the publication in the Charlotte Observer on February 25, 1951 of "Army Carbine: The Rifle that was Born in Prison" by David Marshall Williams "as told to B. Fay Ridenour". These two documents were found to the be the script on which MGM based the movie. One of the marketing points of the stories and movie that followed were Williams' legal problems. Both stories and later the movie played heavily on Williams wanting his son to know the truth about his father regarding those legal problems and the gun inventions that followed, particularly the M1 Carbine.

To me, whatever personality conflicts Williams experienced at Winchester was more about the predictable personality culture clash of a lone wild wolf from NC being caged with the educated suits and ties from industry and collectively trying to work as a team under pressure, a time limit, with a boss having the qualifications of Pugsley looking over their shoulder. The resulting cat fight was not really relevant to the legend other than to show these individuals couldn't get along, to the point of having to be separated. Regardless of who did what in that cat fight, the end result was Williams made a carbine, the others made a carbine, and the one the others made was chosen by Ordnance as the M1 Carbine. With Williams having contributed to that design with his work on the Winchester Model G30 and the evolution of his short stroke gas piston design.

If you read the pages I authored as a result of the research, the intro page gives a summary of the legend and what was found, indicating not everyone would be interested in the details that followed. But the details that follow present the man and what he did in spite of his shortcomings.

The info on his alcoholism almost killing him, his brother taking legal control of his affairs and the eventual commitment to a hospital I think very relevant for a number of reasons, none involving criticism of the man. One of the reasons was it gives a glimpse of what had been occurring to get him to that point of death without going into details. Another was the book authored by Ross E. Beard Jr, whose time with and interviews of Williams started about the time Williams was deemed mentally incapable of handling his own affairs. Not at all with any intent of discrediting Beard, just to keep what Williams said and did with Beard in it's proper historical perspective.

I could have left out all that Williams did do that was unrelated to the M1 Carbine but I felt it would have presented a very myopic view of the man and his true achievements.

As for the stories of "Winchester" and "what's his face" trying to destroy or mask what Williams did at Winchester, have a look at the number of patents with Williams and Winchester (to include the Winchester Model 50 Shotgun), the letter authored by Puglsey at the request of Olin after the preview of the movie, and see if you can find the source and it's time frame for the stories of Winchester and "what's his face".

Jim

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sleeplessnashadow

The info on his alcoholism almost killing him, his brother taking legal control of his affairs and the eventual commitment to a hospital I think very relevant for a number of reasons,

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Thanks Jim for this illumination. Professionally I help create high performance teams and get them engaged in collaborative innovation. Not everyone is going to be a great collaborative innovator, and it's clear from the history of "Carbine Williams" that he was a very troubled man, regardless of his creative brilliance. It is not unusual for this pattern of behavior to have a basis in a personality disorder. I've encountered it numerous times in my career. While I don't know enough about Williams, and I'm not a psychologist, there are certainly signs of anti-social and narcissistic tendencies that make it easier to invent in isolation, where he is the only one to get the credit; not in a collaborative, team environment where credit is shared. This may also explain why he could invent better in jail -- it gave him the isolation he needed where no one could bother him. Many inventors create their symbolic "man-caves" and become obsessive-compulsive in their single minded focus on perfecting their invention. It often produces extraordinary results.

However, once they come out of their caves with a prototype, so often they have absolutely no clue about the effort and investment costs to test, perfect, engineer for manufacture, quality control, mass produce, procure materials, meet standards, hire and train production workers, set up administrative support, market, distribute, sell, service, promote, warranty the product and pay investors. They think their invention is worth enormous licensing and royalty fees that would deprive any business of profitability. The isolated inventors are very difficult to deal with, no matter how marvelous their invention pitting them at odds with the entrepreneurs and investors that have to take the enormous risk of bringing a new product to market.

In the end, the ones who end up on top are the John Brownings, the Nathaniel Herreschoffs, and the Thomas Edisons who understand the business side of the invention equation. The ones who lose are the Nickola Teslas: extraordinarily brilliant but dying in oblivion or despair.

The two firearms Williams created that I found most interesting were the modified Remington Model 8 he did while in prison and the Winchester Model G30. I was able to get access to the Remington Model 8 for photos thanks to the exhibit designer in charge of the Williams workshop in the North Carolina Museum of History. This "carbine" was one of my primary targets for examination given the various claims that related this gun to the design of the M1 Carbine. This is the same "carbine" Williams took to Hollywood and Stewart carried in the movie. And the same carbine Williams was filmed explaining it's origins to Stewart as the origin of the M1 Carbine design. Also later filmed with Williams sharing a variation of the story with Ross Beard Jr.

Remington Model 8 in .35 Remington
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Williams Modified Version, on display in the North Carolina Museum of History.
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The short stroke piston created using the chamber, showing the full rear point of travel vs. the full forward point of travel.....
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With what it looked like from outside the rifle.
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The first Williams patent application for a short stroke "vibrator", application dated February 7, 1931.
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At Winchester, Williams initially modified the Jonathan Edmund Browning rifle design using a gas piston similar to that used by Garand in his Model M1 rifle. His second try he utilized a short stroke gas piston outside and below the chamber. Rifle on display at the Cody Museum, where this pic was taken. Patent drawing from the Williams/Winchester patent. (Note: References to "Winchester" patents includes Winchester under it's various changing names, such as Western Cartridge Co.)
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A Williams redesign produced the Winchester Model 30 7 1/2 lb rifle that convinced Pugsley to contact Ordnance regarding a late entry into the light rifle trials. This rifle is on display at the Cody Museum where this pic was taken. The barrel pictures were a spare barrel for the Winchester Model G30 in the Williams Workshop at the North Carolina Museum of History.
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Winchester's 1st submission to the light rifle trials. Carbine on display at the Cody Museum.
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Winchester's 2nd submission to the light rifle trials and the prototype that won Winchester the contract for the U.S. Caliber .30 Carbine, Model M1. Photos by George Dillman, carbine on display at the Cody Museum.
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The Williams/Winchester patent for the M1 Carbine.
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The carbine invented by Williams, completed after the competition deadline. Carbine on display below the two Winchester prototypes at the Cody Museum where the color pic below was taken.
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The Williams/Winchester patent for the Williams carbine design.
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The Winchester .224 rifle submitted for the light rifle trials, construction credited to Ralph E. Clarkson. A slightly larger version of the Williams design. On display at the Cody Museum
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Unfortunately we have no color pics of the internal mechanisms of many of these rifles as museum policies understandably prohibit disassembly of their firearms. Which includes removing the action from the stock. B&W photos above were taken by U.S. Army Ordnance at or near the time the rifle was evaluated. We lucked out with the modified Remington Model 8 as the museum curators and exhibit supervisor wanted to document the mechanism.

I did not find a patent for the Winchester .224 rifle but Ordnance pics of it's internal parts are near identical to the Williams carbine. Winchester may have relied on the Williams patent of the carbine he designed.

Jim

The display for the Army Light Rifle Project at The Cody Museum
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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sleeplessnashadow

Evolution of the Williams Short Stroke Gas Piston

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Great stories Jim. What a journey into the real story behind the scenes. Fascinating and revealing. Quite valuable. I love to learn about the evolution of things -- you've given us some real insights.
Thanks, Robert

As an aside, I took the Ruger Mini up into the National Forest and sighted it in with MK262 Mod1 (loaded with 77 grain Sierra Match-King OTMs). WOW, I love it!... Incredibly light and handy. Quick pointing and fast shooting. Truly an M1 carbine with a "hard on!" That 77 grain 5.56 round will do at 300 yards what an M1 Carbine will do at 100! It really makes me wonder in Winchester won and Armalite lost.. The M1 Carbine may have lived on to serve even longer.

Here's a link to the range report I posted on the Mini Forum on Perfect Union.

Mini range report MK262 Mod1

You can find a few people just frothing at the jaws about how bad the Mini 14 is. I've had a few and never had a problem. I could hit offhand at 200, which is about all I want now days and it never failed me. They handle nice and are light which also now days matters.

Ruger has really created a new paradigm with the Mini-14 and 30s, starting with the late 580 series in about 2007. Ruger made the barrel on these post 2007 Minis heavier on the 223 (same as Mini-30 now), tapered and stepped it. My old Minis I had back in the day (a 180 and a 185 Series) had the thin pencil barrels and the zero wandered and groups opened up as the barrel heated. This 582 does not do that. In fact, I fired 300 rounds, and the groups stayed small (2 MOAish with iron sights) and zero did not wander, even after heating up VERY hot!

The new sights are also awesome, with a sight picture identical to M1 Carbine or M14. Ruger stole the M1 Carbine post and wing front sight (instead of the mile high, unprotected front post that was impossible to make tight groups with). The excellent protected rear ghost ring peep is great, too. While adjustable for zero only, that is sufficient for the 5.56 round. I have it set for a 250 Zero (+ .25" at 25 yards) with the AWESOME MK262 MOD1 77 OTMS. The trajectory is no more than 3.5 high or low out to 300 yards.

I have pre-2000 possessed Ruger factory 20 and 30 round magazines, and my feeding was 100%. Because the Mini is "over gassed" like an AK, it fed and functioned on every load I tried, including some 55 grain IMR4198 loads that would not cycle in my AR.

The weapon was so accurate, so fun to shoot, and so reliable, it passed my Inland as my favorite long gun. I put an M1 Carbine sling on it, and ordered a walnut top handguard to replace the lawyer designed fiberglass monstrosity that Ruger calls a handguard. It will make it look a little more Winchester .224 Light Rifle-ish, or at least more M1 Carbine-ish. Being old, I am still a wood and steel firearms kind of guy!

If you love shooting a carbine, you really should try a newer, heavier tapered barrel 580 series Mini. (Early 580s still had pencil barrels).

Here are the improved sights on the 580 series and above:

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

try a newer, heavier tapered barrel 580 series Mini.

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I know the ones.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

You can find a few people just frothing at the jaws about how bad the Mini 14 is. I've had a few and never had a problem. I could hit offhand at 200, which is about all I want now days and it never failed me. They handle nice and are light which also now days matters.

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Light is relative. The M-14 weighs 9.2 lbs, the Garand 9.5 lbs. Both not exactly lightweights. But fine shooters.

I carried the FN for my first 15 years, it's 11 lbs fully loaded with bayonet, which was at least on our person... I mean because we're not as young as we used to be...now it matters.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

I carried the FN for my first 15 years, it's 11 lbs fully loaded with bayonet, which was at least on our person... I mean because we're not as young as we used to be...now it matters.

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Forgot you were up north of us. 11 lbs yikes!

I'm across the straits from you...

Wow! I feel like such a traitor to the one true path of the venerable M1 carbine! "Bless me Father, for I have sinned!"

Since I first started shoting my cousin's M1 Carbine around 1962, it has been my absolute FAVORITE long gun. Even before that, I grew up knowing my Dad's Inland M1 carbine brought him home alive from Iwo Jima in 1945. Since 1982, I have continuously had an M1 carbine (occasionally more than one, but usually just one). It has always been my first choice for home defense, plinking and casual shooting, and even as my primary LEO trunk weapon for much of my career (unless I had a department issued full auto!). I just loved having and shooting my little Carbine.

Then it happened. This new 582 Series Mini-14 snuck into my life, and is now top dog! I suppose I can ultimately blame it on "Carbine Williams" because of his design influence on the Winchester SCHV .224 Light Rifle, who I am sure Bill Ruger then stole the idea for the Mini-14 from. While the Mini-14 is a bit over a pound heavier than the M1 Carbine, it is just as handy to tote, and has the same ergonomics as my beloved M1 carbine. The sight picture is virtually identical, and the weapon's handling is identical, capitalizing on 50 years of M1 Carbine "muscle Memory".

The more I shoot this little weapon, the more I really appreciate it. The MK262 Mod1 77 grn 5.56 OTMs have 810 ft lbs ME at 300 yards, where the carbine barely make that ME at 70 yards!

Anyway, the 6 digit Inland M1 Carbine has been cleaned, oiled, and put in a silicone gun sock in the safe. As it is a pristine 50s rebuild in a high-wood, cartouched stock (and no import markings), it is probably worth more than, and harder to replace than the Mini-14. While I certainly don't plan on getting rid of it (it would seem right not to have an M1 Carbine after all these years), it will be preserved and cherished for its historical value and link to my father. It will not, however, be my favorite weapon to shoot anymore. My new Mini has stolen my heart...

I await your assignment of penance and absolution for my blasphemy!

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Jim, did the Ingram Police rifle ever make it into production? I have seen reference to it somewhere else, but don't remember where.

My understanding is it and it's variations never made it into production. Where you probably saw this is in War Baby III, pages 1477-1481. Larry went into a bit of detail describing Ingram's efforts.

My understanding is Ingram had troubles with the design he couldn't overcome. The folding stock was made and sold by National Ordnance under the Cadmus name, Sumdac and later Federal Ordnance. The front sight on the folding stock models was invented and used by by National Ordnance on their carbines. The receiver was cast and the source wasn't stated, though Ingram had to lengthen the receiver and strengthen the breech for the higher pressures so they were likely cast specifically for Ingram. Ingram knew the Los Angeles area gun manufacturers and wholesalers. He had worked with and around them in the 50's.

The two rifle pics below I shot for Larry during a time I was still learning to master lighting for gun pics. My work was voluntary and at my expense so the price was right. The other pics were sent to Larry. I'm headed to Larry's in November for 2 weeks of photos. Don't know if he kept this one in his state or relocated it to a state where it would be safe from politicians who make no exceptions for preserving and researching history. I didn't shoot more pics due to the number of items Larry wanted photos of demanded we keep the line moving.

Attachment 66319 Attachment 66320

Attachment 66313 Attachment 66315 Attachment 66316

Attachment 66314

Attachment 66318

By the way, my favorite in his commercial carbine collection is the carbine converted to .45 Winchester Magnum by LeMAG.

For all the warnings published at the time, neither Larry or I have heard of one failing. I've been in contact with several owners who lived in Alaska and they swore by them. I haven't researched all the conversions as I have more than enough to do. Told Larry he could leave that LeMag to me in his will. In the meantime I'll have to get by with my Universal Firearms Vulcan .44 Magnum. I don't collect them, I shoot them. Pics and ammo.

Universal Firearms
Vulcan Model, pump action, caliber.44 magnum
(less than 3000 made)
Attachment 66321 Attachment 66322
Receiver and bolt milled from forged steel. 5 shot pump action. Anyone owns one of these and needs a replacement stock/handguard I have a couple extras.

Jim

P.S. I deleted the below attached thumbnail from the narrative and it showed up as an attachment instead. Could someone please instruct me on how to eliminate the attachment?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

Wow! I feel like such a traitor to the one true path of the venerable M1 carbine! "Bless me Father, for I have sinned!"
Then it happened. This new 582 Series Mini-14 snuck into my life, and is now top dog! I suppose I can ultimately blame it on "Carbine Williams" because of his design influence on the Winchester SCHV .224 Light Rifle, who I am sure Bill Ruger then stole the idea for the Mini-14 from. While the Mini-14 is a bit over a pound heavier than the M1 Carbine, it is just as handy to tote, and has the same ergonomics as my beloved M1 carbine. The sight picture is virtually identical, and the weapon's handling is identical, capitalizing on 50 years of M1 Carbine "muscle Memory".

I await your assignment of penance and absolution for my blasphemy!

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I had a friend who had a 582 series. He said it shot great groups but he had some issues. Cases staying in the bolt, a round partially stripped from the magazine, things like that.
This didn't happen when meticulously cleaned. But knowing this can be a trunk rifle, not always the case. It was pretty finicky and a bit ammo sensitive. Maybe just his example. He never sent it back to be looked at.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimF4M1s

I had a friend who had a 582 series. He said it shot great groups but he had some issues. Cases staying in the bolt, a round partially stripped from the magazine, things like that.

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Rugers do not like non-ruger magazines. I suspect he was using other than factory magazines. I have had several old style minis before this one (hated the sights and whippy thin barrels),and never had a malfunction with Ruger factory mags. Promags, USA, Eagle, Ramline, etc, weren't worth snot, as far as I was concerned.Mine functions 100% with Ruger 20s and 30s. My old Thermolds gave me issue, though, but I found a way to modify them. On the Perfect Union Ruger mini forum (the largest Mini forum), 582s are being shown to be running 100% reliable with factory mags.

While $32 to $35 for a Ruger factory 30 rounder is high compared to surplus AR mags, think of how much quality mags for other rifles cost: US Palm AK mags, Galil mags, FN SCAR17 mags, AR10 mags, real USGI 30 round mags, Valmet .308 mags, etc.

I fired about 400 rounds of various reloads ( 55 grain reloads with 4198 and 4064) and factory (M193, M855, MK262) and had zero malfunctions with the Ruger factory mags. I did an addition, I fired another 60 rounds in mag dumps from my Thermolds after I modified them. Zero malfunctions. I have absolute confidence in my Mini's reliability.

Here's a link for how I modified the Thermolds:

Modifying Thermold mags closer to Ruger factory spec. - Shooting Sports Forum

I think Bill Hollinger's old outfit used Mini-14 GB models. Bill, and opinions here?

Just got my repro American Black Walnut upper handguard for my 582 Mini-14 from Mark at Gunville. WOW! I love it. It needed no fitting and was a perfect snap in fit. Beautifully sanded, and ready to stain. At $65 +$10 priority mail shipping, it is an excellent deal. I used some Minwax "red chestnut" stain to match my tiger stripe stock, then finished it with some spray semi-gloss clear wood finish I had. Now my Mini really does look like a M1 Carbine that "grew up!" I'll post a pick of them side by side.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

Rugers do not like non-ruger magazines.

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Found that very thing out myself. It was better to have the little 5 rd mags and no failures than a great huge mag made by someone else that wouldn't work well. The steel Ruger mags of all sizes call for a premium though and seldom appear here now.

I see 30 round Ruger factory for $32-25 USD here. It is expensive, but so are Galil mags, AR10 mags, SCAR17 .308 mags, etc. Even 30 round USGI carbine mags run $30-$40 here in the lower 48 We get so spoiled by cheap AR and AK surplus mags, we forget that mags can be expensive...

We just can't get them here. Not at all.

We have that problem in California, also. I am fortunate that I had several different MIn-14s that I occasionally carried as LEO trunk weapons in the 80s and 90s before the ban. I sold them but kept the magazines. I have about 10 Ruger factory magazines (20s and 30s) and another 10 or 12 of the Thermold "Zytel" polymer 30 round magazines. If I didn't, I \d be stuck with 10 rounders.

Moot point anyways here. We can only have fives, even a 40 has to be blocked, so I had a pocket full of the little guys.

Jim, How about G43s, SKSs, Hakims, M1 Garands, and M1 Carbines, etc? Still limited to 5s?

Bernie

The only one not limited is the M1 rifle, mercifully. That's another reason I have one. The ones that can fit a mag marked for pistol, Storm, M4, JR carbine and so on, can use a ten rd but only if it's as factory issued. Yes, you must butcher your G41/43 mag...there's a rule about pre 1945 mags not being blocked but it's somewhat cloudy and I sure wouldn't test it. I think you'd find yourself fighting in court.

Mini-14 with a walnut handguard. Now it really looks like an M1 Carbine's big brother...

Family genealogy 1941, 1957, 1975.

M1 carbine:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo..._zpsa0a1-1.jpg

WInchester .224 Light Rifle

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...7iwt905e-1.jpg

Ruger's .223 Light rifle -Mini-14

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...oivnecxc-1.jpg

Close up of Ruger handguard
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...bccpvwp1-1.jpg

I always like the walnut top better.

I really enjoyed this thread, and thought I would revisit it. Why????

A couple reasons. On the AR15 Retro forum, we were discussing the Winchester .224 Light Rifle, which as we covered in this original thread was an M1 carbine on steroids in many ways, and in some ways a natural evolution of the M1 carbine concept. There are probably new members here who have not heard of the .224 Winchester, and they may enjoy it.

My second reason is that like a fool, I sold that 582 Series Mini14 with all wood furniture like to a friend in a fit of AR15 snobbery, and decided to get another Mini-14. It is California Featureless like my Inland M1 Carbine I am using for a HD/Ranch?Camp weapon right now, and it has more reach than my carbine. I have areas here where we now live in the mountains, were I could get up to 200 yards, and I think is pushing the carbine's limit. With that said, I picked up a stainless 196 series , non-Ranch, with the M1 Garand style rear sight.

Anyway, I hope the new members enjoy the .224 Light rifle thread. I really do think that Ruger in 1972 built on the M1 Carbine and the .224 Light Rifle designs to come up with the Mini. The original straight side Mini-14 20 round magazines are a virtual copy of the .224 Light Rifle 20 rounder.

If anyone has trouble with my images and photobucket, let me know. I have them so I can repost from IMGUR.

This is drifting from our forum topic of M1 Carbines, and the thread is over two years old. The comparisons were made back then. No need to rehash it here.