Lest we forget - canadian grave

As some may already be aware I am heavily involved in a system called GRAVEWATCH which I founded many years ago, looking after the graves of PARACHUTE REGIMENT soldiers buried around the UK and the rest of the world.
There I was having taken my wife to Jersey for a four day break for her birthday last week, and having a meal in a pub, as you do, overlooking St Marys Churchyard on the Island.
I spotted a lone Commonwealth Portland gravestone in the cemetery and went over to see who it was.
I recorded what it said on the stone:
PTE 105442 PHILIP FRANCIS LE CORNIJ 14TH BN CANADIAN INFANTRY DIED ON THE 14TH SEPT 1918 AGED 24 YEARS

On return home I decided to find out how this young lad met his fate and also how he was repatriated, when no one was allowed to be repatriated unless you were a wealthy family from other stock!!
Here was this solitary grave in a fairly large graveyard. I searched my CWWG spreadsheet and could not find him anywhere. I contacted my direct liaiason at the head office at CWWG and he too was baffled.
Through a lot of searches between us, we established two important factors. One his service number was incorrect it should have read 1054442 and his surname was spelt LE CORNU.
It then became easy to establish how he had died and how had eneded up in Jersey miles from the battlefield but off the west coast of France.
He was wounded on the 15th August 1917 at one of the worst battles which was the Battle of Passchendaele, and died on the 14th September 1918 of his wounds on the island.

I attach a copy of the families background from CWWG papers held as he clearly decided to go back to his roots for whatever reason and join up in a Quebec based unit probably reflecting relatives and his families birthplace before coming to live in Jersey.

Most of these lone gravestones provide so much history as to how someone died and always worth a look at.................LEST WE FORGET his sacrifice on our behalf.

I know Canadian doctrine up until the late 60s was to bury them where you died. The members of the HMCS Kootenay explosion in 1969, were all either buried at sea or buried in the UK as it was the closest country. Many people tried to repatriate there bodies, even offering to pay the expenses but the military refused as it was against policy. It ended up being repealed sometime after that, likely as a direct result of that incident. I am not sure what the policy was back in WWI for Canadians, but I could see it being the same.

In our case, it was as late as Northern Ireland in 1969 when things started to change and the lads were brought home, as we have lots of lads buried in Aden and that was middle to late 60's.
During the Falklands Conflict a choice was then open to families for them to be buried there or brought home. We now know what happens today, all are brought home.
I am sure that Canada followed UK military policy therafter too.

This is what it is all about remembering and keeping them honored for what they did and less than a month before the end of The War To End All Wars, I wonder if the Commonwealth graves commission will alter the gravestone or leave it. I guess if it is logged on his records then the original gravestone can remain just that untouched. Well done Gil............a humble meal which led you to that place and that find.
Passchendaele ~ Third battle of Ypres (EE-P or Wipers to the troops) the whole battle was often remembered by the troops as just mud, mud and more mud and like most battles in WWI was pure slaughter, 19th century tactics and 20th century weapons.

I didn't realise how many Canadians died there having been there many times over the years.
Everytime I go I find out even more about that bloody war, which was supposed to end all wars. How our Politicians spoke so easily about the sacrifice made by so many young men from ALL over the world, from every nation. It wiped out a generation here in the UK, so what did it do to the rest of the nations??
Vimy Ridge is remarkable if you haven't been there before and you get a chance to visit.
Canadian Students are seconded there for 2 years and what they don't know about the battle for the ridge isn't worth knowing about. A real and lasting credit to all Canadian people and Forces who served and continue to serve. When you see concrete covered trenches 30 feet away from each other at the closest point, it is truly remarkable anybody came home;)

gil, it did the same here in australia. i'm only 40 but still remember meeting ladies who never married because there just weren't enough men left to go around.

mind you, i also remember my mothers reaction when i asked her, loudly, why the two old men we had just walked past had numbers tattoo on their arms.

it makes me sad, that to my younger children, it is all just stories they won't be able to put faces too.

Several years ago my wife and I visited the Canadian memorial at Vimy Ridge, among other Great War battlefields. The first picture is from from the German trenches and the Canadian flag(Canada would have been flying the Union Jack at the time) is at the Canadian trench line. An easy grenade throw as Gil said. The student that escorted and narrated history to our group told us that the ridge was not taken until Canadian soldiers had. I told him about the French colonial 1st Moroccan Division who had captured the ridge but were unable to hold it because they didn't have reinforcements, but he would have none of it. His name was Ross but no relation to Sir Charles he said. A very nice young man. The second picture is a bomb/artillery crater. The picture really doesn't do it justice as the outer edges are within twenty feet of a trench and perhaps two hundred feet in diameter. "Who would fardels bear". Tom

Imagine charging over open ground against an elevated position with a well armed adversary with lots of ammunition and MG's I guess each country has its sad memories from that god awful conflict, Frommelles, Somme, Vimy, Ypres x 3, Cambrai, Pozieres on and on it goes as did the losses.
When I stood on the Arizona memorial I was pretty much dumb struck it was quite an unsettling experience to stand and look down at her shattered hulk and then face that wall with oh so many names etched into it and the real irony of it there were allot of people from that country taking happy snaps I took a few just so I could remember them and thought how ludicrous the situation was at that point in time, it was not their generation but I found it weird.

When I went to the ACT as I have done a few times and walked along the bronze wall with all those diggers names I also remember pictures I have seen of the very dark wall dedicated to those in the USA that gave up their lives in that other place so far from home. Its pretty darn hard not to feel touched and quite emotional about what they had to endure.
I am just reading a book on Slaves to the War Lords about a soldier from England experiences on the Western front and have just finished where he was in the Somme episode and just how he describes that battlefield, being lost and often their view of the world was just a strip of sky above the trench. As for meals most ate their rations when they got them as their chances of returning to enjoy it later were marginal to say the least.

As long as there are the types like Gil and others I am sure that those that gave it all will for ever be a candle to us free folk no matter how dark the world gets.......................

The amount of info from you guys regarding the Great War is very much appreciated. As an American, I realize that compared to what the countries of England, France, Germany sacrificed our forces barely bloodied their noses ( mind you, I'm not belittling my own countrymen ) I have always been fascinated by the First World War, and hope to see the battlefields of the Western Front soon. It would be great to get to France next year to observe the 100th anniversary of the Battle of the Somme.

I have studied the Gallipoli campaign (slaughter) in some detail too, not wishing to go off the subject of the Canadian grave in Jersey and how this thread started, but I look at the losses Australia had in Turkey in 1915.
Sadly whilst the Great War was going on in France and Belgium, there were hundreds of thousands of men tied up on a bloody beach. It just blows your mind. Why did the Generals not see they had to breakout at all costs to get out of that awful killing ground. When one of them tried a daring flanking attack on another beach up the coast as bodies started piling up, what did they do, sit on that beach too, without getting off it....unbelievable, but easy to speak about whilst I sit in my armchair tapping the keys to the computer!!

Now that is a graveyard to behold, what an absolute waste.
Roll that forward 24 years and those men on the DDAY beaches. Had they not got off that beach they would have been slaughtered.
If you ever come over to England please do visit the American Cemetery at Madingley, just outside Cambridge........ thousands of airman and sailors row after row, kept in prestine condition for all time.
I go at least once a year when USAF Mildenhall and Lakenheath provide the guard of honour of hundreds of men and women in May, and their jets fly over with the missing wing man too..........very moving sight, especially when the Dakota and others make it as well if the weather holds. I don't think I have ever been when the sun is shining though, so apt for England!!
There are so many men on that great wall with the Medal of Honour it takes your breath away along with many famous names. I am sure walls like this exist in many far flung places too, that people drive by the cemetery, but never know whats in there or really care

Madingley American Cemetery - YouTube

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Originally Posted by Gil Boyd

there were hundreds of thousands of men tied up on a bloody beach. It just blows your mind. Why did the Generals not see they had to breakout at all costs to get out of that awful killing ground

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Gil, your point is right on. That "War to End All Wars" was probably the most horrible of wars. The Battles like the Somme or Passchendaele were nothing but UGLY. The Battle of the Somme saw 10,000 casualties/HOUR. Lloyd George wrote, "Passchendaele was indeed one of the greatest disasters of the war ... No soldier of any intelligence now defends this senseless campaign ...". Between the British and German forces at Passchendaele there were over 1/2 million casualties. The gunfire was so intense it was just a din.

But the larger issues still prevail -- the strategy and tactics of the generals in particular: why didn't they use tanks and aircraft better. At the Battle of Cambrai it was clearly demonstrated that entrenched defenses could be overrun by a surprise and a rapid attack by combined use of infantry, artillery, tanks and aircraft in attacks. The French Renault FT tank was a real beauty, but not used well by the British.

And of course, there is the largest issue of all: Why was the war fought in the first place? It wasn't good versus evil, like the second world war, or over economics or philosophy; maybe it was territory, but why didn't peace negotiations start earlier? The common answer as to "why" is "entangling alliances." I say it was people got caught in the frenzy of war -- sensibility got lost, lives meant little to the generals, and the old methods were slow to be replaced (unlike the second world war).

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Originally Posted by Seaspriter

And of course, there is the largest issue of all: Why was the war fought in the first place? It wasn't good versus evil, like the second world war, or over economics or philosophy; maybe it was territory, but why didn't peace negotiations start earlier? The common answer as to "why" is "entangling alliances." I say it was people got caught in the frenzy of war -- sensibility got lost, lives meant little to the generals, and the old methods were slow to be replaced (unlike the second world war).

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Two points, first off WWI I believe was mostly caused by the fact people wanted to go to war and expand there empires, nationalism was very strong and the idea of owning colonies was very popular. WWI could have easily been avoided, in fact early on just before the war started it looked like it was avoided. There was tons of negotiations before WWI to avoid it, I recommend looking at 'The Great War' channel on youtube to get a good idea of the extent of negotiations which were happening before the war began (it would be the earliest episodes).

WWI was a situation everyone was unprepared for. Looking back in hindsight it is easy to say they were stupid as the tactics that were to be developed in the war became the standard now, but if you look at it with a proper 19th century perspective you will see how hard it would have been to adapt to that style of warfare when literally everything you have been taught has become obsolete.

Secondly WWII was not a 'good and evil' war. It is the line most people are fed, but if you actually look at the objectives of the Axis powers, you will see that WWII was fought for mostly the same reasons WWI was. Creating a empire (or restoring one), being the primary reason for all Axis powers to fight. The Allies never even won WWII, we went to war to protect Poland's sovereignty, and when the war was over Poland still wasn't liberated.

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Originally Posted by Eaglelord17

it is easy to say they were stupid as the tactics that were to be developed in the war became the standard now, but if you look at it with a proper 19th century perspective you will see how hard it would have been to adapt to that style of warfare when literally everything you have been taught has become obsolete.

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I visited the Gettysburg National Park last summer to see where my great great grandfather fought for the Massachusetts 8th Regiment. Most of the same blunders made in 1863 were perpetuated in WWI, but to an even larger extent. WWI was a stalemate over a few miles of front for years; at least the American Civil War had more mobility.

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Originally Posted by Eaglelord17

WWII was not a 'good and evil' war. It is the line most people are fed, but if you actually look at the objectives of the Axis powers, you will see that WWII was fought for mostly the same reasons WWI was.

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If you study psychopathy, quickly you come to realize the WWII was started and fought by the Axis powers for psychopathic motives more than anything else. Certainly any war can be justified by revisionist historians as being fought for economic reasons, but the reality is that empires and colonies and greed have existed since before Greco-Roman times but have not always resulted in war. Psychopathic behavior (which is evil by definition) was exhibited by Hitler, Mussolini, Tojo, Stalin, and later by Mao and the North Koreans. Whenever genocide shows up in war, it's the result of psychopathics in control. During the 20th century, over 100 million people died at the hands of the twisted minds of psychopaths. During WWII, the Allies fought a "Good War" against some of the most evil minds to team up in history. Certainly there were economics and empires, but during WWII Franklin Roosevelt pretty much made Churchill give up on a colonial strategy in return for US war support.

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Originally Posted by Seaspriter

I visited the Gettysburg National Park last summer to see where my great great grandfather fought for the Massachusetts 8th Regiment. Most of the same blunders made in 1863 were perpetuated in WWI, but to an even larger extent. WWI was a stalemate over a few miles of front for years; at least the American Civil War had more mobility.

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Many people like to bring up the American Civil War as a example of why didn't they learn from this. The reality is that based on later wars there was no need to. Look at the Franco-Prussian War for some very mobile warfare with the earlier technology. Other later wars such as the Boer War and such also happened to stick in the minds of the generals of the time for the need for long range combat. Probally the best chance anyone had to learn how to fight with the modern technology was the Russo-Japanese War. Dug in Russian troops were able to deal tons of damage to Japanese troops, but the lessons that could have been learned were ignored.

There were some mobile parts of WWI, the big two areas being the Russian front, and the war in Africa, everyone just seems to focus on the Western front however as it tends to be the area most people are interested in. Most people don't even remember the Balkans or the struggles that took place in that area.

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Originally Posted by Seaspriter

If you study psychopathy, quickly you come to realize the WWII was started and fought by the Axis powers for psychopathic motives more than anything else. Certainly any war can be justified by revisionist historians as being fought for economic reasons, but the reality is that empires and colonies and greed have existed since before Greco-Roman times but have not always resulted in war. Psychopathic behavior (which is evil by definition) was exhibited by Hitler, Mussolini, Tojo, Stalin, and later by Mao and the North Koreans. Whenever genocide shows up in war, it's the result of psychopathics in control. During the 20th century, over 100 million people died at the hands of the twisted minds of psychopaths. During WWII, the Allies fought a "Good War" against some of the most evil minds to team up in history. Certainly there were economics and empires, but during WWII Franklin Roosevelt pretty much made Churchill give up on a colonial strategy in return for US war support.

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WWII was just WWI fought with modern tactics. The goals were primarily to restore power to the Axis powers. Japans goal was to create the co-prosperity sphere, which is empire building. Italy's goals were to create a empire for itself out of Libya, Ethiopia, Egypt etc. Germany's goals were to retake land that was historically theres (Austria is German speaking, Czechslovakia being formerly part of Germany and Austria-Hungary, Poland being historically part of Germany, Austria-Hungary and Russia etc.). You could even argue that Germany never really intended to fight France that early (or at all, we will never know however).

All three of these nations were late to the empire game, both Germany and Italy being founded in the late 1800s and Japan not coming out of isolation until the late 1800s. Other nations that joined the Axis, (primarily Balkan nations) were all trying to get a bit ahead in the area as they all had land claims which hadn't been resolved (and likely never will be).

In terms of the Allies there goals were primarily to stop these nations from empire building as a fair bit of the land they wanted belonged to the Allies. The US is unique in that it stayed uninvolved for a long time, but that is also because they really didn't care about some other European war. It wasn't until the war was literally brought to your doorstep that the Americans joined.

Yes the Axis committed some atrocities, but there goals were not to commit atrocities, its just something they did on the side (in the case of the Germans, most people were unaware of the internment camps and what went on there). The allies were also guilty of some as well, though people don't like to put the spotlight on them. The extent is not nearly as great as say the Germans or the Japanese, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen on both sides. You have to remember when WWII started and carried on, the western world was unaware of any atrocities being committed, it wasn't until it was over that they were discovered.

the american oil embargo on japan certainly helped ensure america's inclusion in ww2.

Read the strategic bombing campaign against Germany in WWII bombing the Ruhr may have been a military objective but places like Dresden and Hamburg were more to the point as per Churchill and Bomber Harris's plan "Point Blank".

In the book I mentioned there is continual reference to bodies churned up by artillery fire after burial, his first night in the trenches he had to bury a soldier whose head had been blown off, another a friend who got the short straw in the first wave whilst old mate sat in a dugout waiting for their turn found his friend when he went forward with a piece of shrapnel through his tin hat from the top of his head and lodged in his jaw KIA.
They retired to the dugout again as the shelling was insane shortly an officer came up all disheveled and told them to retire as their whole front section well all the men had been wiped out, they had to balance in two feet of water in the trench to rub whale oil on their feet to stop the dreaded trench foot.
From what I have read and it has been quite a few books the tactics of the day seem to be out of touch generals with no grasp on how the way war had changed, not saying there were generals that were very competent in the art of war but others like say Haig, Pompey Elliot questionable to say the least then there was say Anthill at Galipolli who openly despised his superior and was responsible in part for the Nek fiasco.

Where 100's were wiped out in an area no bigger than 4 tennis courts pretty much shot down within a few yards of leaving the trench then there was Fromelles "The Australians suffered 5,533 casualties in one night. The Australian toll at Fromelles was equivalent to the total Australian casualties in the Boer War, Korean War and Vietnam War put together. It was a staggering disaster"
They were attacking a well defended elevated position that could observe all the the rear lines and preparations being made for the attack may as well have rung them up and said we will be over shortly get your ammo ready as we will advance nicely so you can cut us down.
And then the Somme Haigs great plan which cost the commonwealth armies 60,000 KIA/WIA on the first day and for paltry gains it is sickening to read these figures but it needs to be re-enforced of the unflinching devotion to duty, your mates and country is never forgotten by any generation.


It was a good thing Gil did and a fitting end to a young mans life "Lest We Forget"

It is insane to look at the casualties sustained in WWI, and even WWII. On August 22 1914 the French lost 27,000 people. This was the most casualties received by any single nation on a single day in WWI. The Royal Newfoundland Regiment in one day, the first day of the Somme, received a 90% casualty rate which had a terrible effect on the then colony of Newfoundland, as that was a significant portion of there male population.

These are the type of things that need to be remembered, and it is part of what I love about collecting milsurps. It is a tangible connection to the past, and it gives you a appreciation for what people did. There is nothing sadder than the thought of all those people who didn't return home, who never had the chance to grow up and have a family, to truly experience what there is in life. And it is for that reason I respect everyone who has/had the courage to serve, no matter what side they were on. No one thinks they are the bad guys, everyone wants to believe they are fighting for what is right.

Well said Cinders and very accurate.
"Lions Led by Donkeys" was a saying used by every soldier and many officers during the Boer War and WW1. It referrred specifically to those officers of the Old School Tie Brigade, who were elevated in rank with little training in tactics and fieldcraft, due to the cut of their jib within an established Military family, with schooling as..........ie Eton/Harrow and the like.
It was only until Military Academies were properly orchestrated and funded by Government like Sandhurst that things started to change, with a cohesive style of management and tactics that were moved on from simple Cavalry Charges. When it came to the simple infanteer it was a case of "Don't run men.............walk" into hails of machine gun fire, accounting for many of our losses.
"It just isn't done running at an enemy old chap, walk" you can hear the echoes even now, with Black Adder encapsulating the whole jaunt in the TV series. If it wasn't so funny it would be serious.
Some Guards Regiments still evoke the past family traditions here in the UK and I am sure it goes on in Australia/Canada and the USA too.
Quite a wide subject this, and trying to find blame in what was a right buggers muddle from France to Gallipoli!!
Only exceptional officers like Churchill could fathom out what was occurring, and it was only when he got into the House of Commons that things did actually change for the better, but by then we were into WW2