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Morning all,
I tried to make the title as sarcastic as possible....:rofl::rofl:
Deactivated Old Spec L1A1 SLR
Well cough, cough, this rare variant is missing from my collection, who knew that Lithgow supplied the Singapore Police with Enfield made slightly adjusted change lever, "full auto" L1A1's?? :lol::lol:
Second hand car sales come to mind for some strange reason...
I made my issue L1A1 into an auto-fire L1A1 and fired it a few times on automatic out at Batu ranges. It just roared like a lion, shook like it was a kango hammer and was totally uncontrollable. Looked good but totally useless. Even standing/crouched fired from off the firing-post it was the same. Prone was even worse.
I did the same with my FN C1 A1 regularly. Changed the trigger plunger and kept a selector in my kit. They were fun with blank ammo but as Peter says, what a cooker when they were live. Can't really imagine a use for it now...
Creative writing at its best (worst) in the advert. But, then throw 'SAS' into an advert for the unexperienced and ignorant and you have a sale for a ridiculous price.
Or 'PARA'!..................;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul S.
Tanky,
I see you left the best till last then:lol::lol:
I've fired both metric and inch pattern rifles on full auto and they're as worthless as tits on a boar hog.
Gil, 'Quality, not Quantity' Mate! ;) AIRBORNE!......Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
They were great with the 22 kit...in a c2Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
I used the sub cal many times in my rifle with the FA selector. When we were living out for a week, I'd have it in there for grouse or gophers and such. Those were long ago days though. We'd also likely have a handgun of some kind...the training NCOs that is. I once did an assault on a gopher colony with the FN sub cal, much to the mirth of my fellow training NCOs that watched from a safe distance. They sure ran fast on FA as well...in .22... For those that ever walked Camp Wainwright, that was out in the lost farm area...
Sounds like a riot Jim! To be fair, I bet they did run fast, the local wildlife are probably more use to a local with a shotgun, not a full on Canadian Army assault with automatic weapons!!:lol::lol:
I bet the kit has a blistering rate of fire on full auto too!
Yes, it was the kit I meant. It ran about the same as the rifle, about 750 I think...
Was that with Houtchie chord or a match stick!:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
No such rough Armouring from us! ..... we had the makings from the L2's we had!
I always trimmed my trigger plunger and kept a selector in my kit...
'ere, anyone want to buy an L1A1 SLR that once belonged to the Queen?.....I know where there are hundered's of Thousands of 'em!......................LOL
I know the Indian Army have 25,000 just waiting to be replaced by the SA80. Albeit, they try to run a similar disposal policy to the UK, I have always wondered what they do with thier "seconds":(
If they have any sense they'll keep hold of the SLR's as long as they can.........best rifle ever made IMHO
India adopting the SA80......... Are you SURE Gil? They've only just perfected (well, in the last 8 years or so.....) their INSAS rifle (and the INSAS-LSW that was plagued by the same problems as our LSW. A boy trying to do a mans job!). They won't divulge the true size of their Army but when I quoted 1.5 million 'available', including reserves, the ILO at Warminster smiled.
Yes Peter.......they will always follow our lead when it comes to weapon systems, and when we have got bored with the SA80, they'll want the usual deal of ammo and parts and servicing thrown in. Don't ask me why, perhaps its because you REME types keep the old SLR's going just that little bit longer for them without complaining in parts.
The issues are of course that things are, and will be drastically changing this end what with Bordon going and other fine REME/Stores establishments that go back centuries...............but heyho when have Politicians given a toss as to how we maintain kit issued to whoever, including our own!!:mad:
Again I learn something today, I had never heard of the INSAS rifle and gave wikipedia a quick look over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
An interesting take on a service rifle, and trust India to copy, clone, and kludge something together.
Main speaking points are a 5.56mm rifle which is 9.1 lbs unloaded and features what AR15 users refer to as a "pencil barrel". I especially like the bit of engineering that must have went into the Lubrication, Jet, Eyeball Mark 1.
Makes the Chinese evolution of Type-53 (Mosin-Nagant) -> Type-56 (AK-47) -> Type 81 (Modernized SKS) -> Type 95 (Bullpup Rifle) -> Type 03 (Non-bullpup Type 95) look positively first rate by comparison.
The INSAS, another tale for another day. They have spent as much on that as we did on the NIMROD and what did we do with that at the end of Billions spent?
Having been over recently, they are a kind people, who search for the equivalent of the Holy Grail when it comes to weaponry, and a nation I will never understand having lived there as an Army brat as well. They love the British and what the Commonwealth stood for, yes Independance was a natural progressive thing to do, but Military wise, we still have both India and Pakistan attend RMAS. Its Esprit de Corps I know, but two countries split from what was India doing the same drills/leadership etc.
Thats where the SA80-/LSW reasoning comes from. These are the future Generals of both countries, who are always looking for the best deal for their people and good luck to them.
So in short, the British rifle of today, will always be the Indian Armies rifle of tomorrow, following the days of gun boat deplomacy whether we or they like it or not, we have always supported them through thick and thin, as they have us for more than two world wars, losing millions to British Political causes. Our rifles have always stood the test of time, and as such they see that, clearly as a great benchmark of engineering. Operationally one can spend hours banging your gums about how useless it is against and 7.62 NATO round but hey ho, its been upgraded more times than the good old Durex!!lol
;)
India - SA80........... I find it incomprehensible to say the two words in one breath. Not that there's anything wrong with the A2. It's just the logistics of adopting an early 80's design that no one else adopted, (even with most generous terms offered) with a total production run up to the mid 90's, of only 330,000 units. Are they going to tool up afresh........
Or is it April 1st?
Goodness gracious me ha ha!
Peter, it is their thoughts not mine, and they respect what we use regardless.
To take on the SLR/SMG and others was probably well timed as both were coming to the end of their enforced service, and they dropped lucky and bought them at "rock" bottom prices, but they are always looking for a good deal.....thats them.
They desperately want a 5.56 gap stopper and press ahead with Excaliber, but who knows!!
Indian Army pushes ahead with Excalibur rifle programme | IHS Jane's 360
But where can I read about India taking on the SA80. Are they going to buy the tooling for the top half from H&K who are the design authority for MOST of it but, alas, not all of it - which could cause manufacturing and logistics problems, (as I know to my cost. But that's another story)
I can't say that I know anything about the INSAS/Excalibur rifle, but it appears to be just another variant of the AKM, I guess there must be a mechanical difference? Reading through the Janes blurb, can I take from this that the Indians have achieved the impossible and built an AK variant that doesn't work very well !!
It still makes me laugh, the Political positive spin put on the L85A2 launch, what a "major achievement" that was, rebuilding a rifle to be what it was supposed to be in the first place, at huge additional expense!
From a personal perspective, I think its a shame the British, Australians and Canadians didn't collaborate again on a new individual weapon system design after the inch pattern era, follow the same tried, very sensible (and extremely successful format) of picking a proven design and turning it into a world beater.
At least the Australians and Canadians picked known designs and didn't try to re-invent the wheel like we did!
Peter,
It was a verbal exchange between a few of their British trained officers nothing more thqn that, but made me think they weren't happy with what was coming.
Agreed it is a partial facelift of many weapons more so, the AK series, but you could have a competition in naming parts, and you probably wouldnt be far off in each case.
H&K parts etc
Phew............ If I had to describe the INSAS to a class, I'd be telling them to think 5.56mm GALIL. It's true that there were teething problems with the INSAS - just like our L85 - but like us, they eventually took the bull by the horns, gave it and the sloppy design team a good kicking and got it working properly. That's straight from the horses mouth....... or as close as you could get, from the previous Indian Army Liaison Offr (the ILO) at work.
We had Offrs from all armies at Warminster on the junior command courses, Platoon commanders, JOTAC courses etc etc and while they might have been to Sandhurst, it wasn't for the Officers Commissioning course. They have their own Sandhurst at Chetwynd
Ah right, so if we say Galil, we are talking basically expensive tarted up AKM, I will have to read up on the INSAS, astonished they managed to bugger up such a proven design!Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
At least with the starting point of "Hey, lets ram an AR18 up an EM2's arse on a Tesco Value range budget and see what happens" you can see why the L85A1 went so very wrong, but to get the legendary reliable AKM design wrong, well India goes to the bottom of class, just below us!
Why oh why do the people who hold the purse strings let these companies re-invent the wheel, usually very badly and usually at a crippling expense to the tax payer and the poor sod who gets issued with it!
Speaking as the devils advocate, you can do all the trials, extended trials, troop trials, pre production assessments, production evaluations, cost analysis, fault assessments, fault timings and whatever else you can think of over a few years.............. But guess what? There is absolutely nothing on this earth that will test a new rifle like full deployment to troops in the field.
But you have GOT to listen and act on the defect reports that filter back. Most of the faults that come back are generally trivial ones that can be easily put right with a bit of will and where withall. SA80 ejected cases tipping round. SIMPLE cure to remove .014" from the front/top edge of the ejection opening. Correct the shape to the cocking handle to make into a shaped deflector to boot and the whole problem is solved. The SA80 was but nothing compared with the Brens faults once it started seeing action in France. And look how that was revered - eventually.
That much is true, design theory, static ranges, and limited troop trials will only take the testing so far. It isn't until you give a fully loaded soldier a rifle that you can find out if the magazine housing is strong enough to work as a step ladder in urban operations, or if two rifles can serve as a stretcher, in the case of the C7A1, it is and can.
Take the original C7 magazines, they were some of the early polymer design and they did not get a positive reputation, we switched to a metal bodied magazine, but after the improvement of plastics the P-MAG is the "high-speed" kit the world over. Although they are well improved, I don't trust them and would never rely on them. However technology does evolve with fielding, testing, and breakage.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ds20mags-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../05/c7_2-1.jpg
I think those visiting officers to the UK, see a rifle they shoot on the ranges here and hold nothing but admiration for it. Those running the ranges clearly are too young to know the full in's and out's of the SA80's dark days, so in short the Indians think it is now a good proven operational rifle, and filter that back to those in charge.
I am not saying the Excalibur project is floundering, but from what they were saying they are now throwing good money after bad!
A sentence we have heard many times here before. It is a culmination of interfering agencies and budgets, and department heads that run on efficiencies, but mostly, it is the politics that slow these projects down, having been involved in one or two with stuff I still supply to MOD today.
A tad frustrating when the kit has been on trial in some cases for 4 years on operations, and units deciding to local purchase rather than wait for the green light from DSTL/Fort Halstead or whoever ticks that ultimate box.
So I sympathise with the Indian Army, who like us, only want the best for their troops, to make sure they do have a sharp point on their spear when they need it, surely is not too much to ask in these days of manufacturing brilliance in the armnaments world!!
Very well put, in a nut shell that's what we all want, if our young men and women must be sent into harms way (an increasingly fanatical harms way at that) we expect and should demand they are equipped with that most essential and basic of foreign policy implements, a very well made and very reliable personal weapon, that's better than a potential adversary's. There simply is no excuse for anything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
Australia have already started renewal of their small arms and I would expect the UK to at least start a completion before 2020 that hopefully leads to a new rifle coming on stream before 2025.
What's Canada and the US doing?
Well Colt Canada spent some time with my unit doing "trials" before I departed the Army, and while I wasn't part of the trial, I did drop in to look things over and ask some informed questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrclark303
The CC (Diemaco) reps had a series of modular chassis made of aluminium with various pieces that could be moved around to test ergonomics, notable observations of this bit of trials.
The "rifle" was always configured as a "bullpup" with a "D" style drip and guard, like the AUG series. In fact, if you were to look at that Bushmaster M17 rifle, add a D grip. make it silver and shorten the length you would have an excellent visual of their Lego Gun test chassis.
Bushmaster M17S shown for reference
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../2iay6mh-1.jpg
The magazine was much shorter and thicker than the STANAG 5.56mm 30 rounder we know today. The CC Reps, when asked, indicated they are working on some "new" caliber options, no other explanations. If I had to describe it, imagine a magazine that could be a quad-stack of .30 carbine. The same footprint of two extended M1 Carbine 15 round magazines taped together side by side.
The current issue Elcan C79 optic was in use for the trials.
A dummy M203 launcher was also mounted on some, but it was above the bore and the C79 mounted on top of that. The launcher did not work, so no idea how they planned to load or trigger it in that arrangement. Vertical parallax must have been silly as well.
Front pistol grips were mounted, as was some other high-speed junk, no provision or consideration for a bayonet was observed.
At this time, I consider all of the above to be masturbatory vaporware, the CC people didn't seem to be asking the troops what they wanted, they were presenting a school of thought and watching soldiers climb around and pretend to point it at things while squeezing dummy triggers.
From a reality standpoint, the Small Caliber Bullpup Lego Gun worries me, but the C7A2 service life upgrade is only 11 years old at this point, so I think we will not see any new replacement for some time. That, and the defense budget by GDP is the same as Spain and slightly less than Japan.
Similar to my old issue Steyr
Thank f*ck I'm not in Gagetown to go through the trials on THAT sort of things again. They did it once and rejected it.
The funny thing abut the "Bushmaster 17S" is that it started out here in Oz, in the fertile brain of one Charles Giorgio, later known as Charles St. George, who had previously "re-imagined" the AR-18 into the Leader Dynamics rifle, way back in the 1970s. That design subsequently had a brief rebirth as the AAA SAR.
The bullpup didn't get much beyond prototype stage here before the family bolted to the USA to start anew in a better environment.
I ran into the man himself, and some of the family, at a SHOT Show a few years ago. Nice folks.
Indias PR release on the Excalibur: DRDO Designed Excalibur Assault Rifle To Replace Rifles - YouTube
I suppose there is only so much design work you can do, to try and change an established look
Note that the video was always cut to another view. As soon as it was being stripped, to avoid seeing the internals!
I suspect, a cloned system internally of the AK.......................
Just saves so much time when you know a mate called Ivan who'll help out!!
Very interesting video, so from what we can see, HK style cocking system, bolt carrier looks very AK, so can we assume they moved the fixed cocking handle from the bolt carrier and attached it to some sort of disconnecter on the piston body so it no longer reciprocates with the action?
Or have they pushed the boat right out, re-invented the wheel and melded together some sort of HK roller delay / AK back end contraption!
All looking hugely unnecessary, haven't they got better things to be wasting money on?
Sadly,
Its a lot wider than that unfortunately. If you have ever spent anytime in India, it comes down to a cast system that is as old as the hills, and simply put, comes down to the level of the pecking order in the heirachy of leadership in the Military, to make these unfounded decisions to reinvent the wheel so to speak. Money doesn't come into it when they set about a challenge they just soldier on, and is refelctive of where we are with both unfinished weapons systems.
In partial answer to your question, I think they have looked at all the weapons they trialled and taken the best components from each to make the Excalibur. I would put money on the fact that they have more than likely probably used AKM bits internally.
The way I understood it from those officers I spoke to, its a long way from the finishing post and there is a real reluctance to produce it in vast numbers before serious operational trials by the lads on the ground have agreed it is what they want.
Lots of guarded comments as you can imagine, but as I said earlier, their view, not mine, was, the SA80 had gone through the same pain barriers they are now experiencing, with lots of fingers in the pie, but it has now come through it all and is still a favoured weapon of choice by those that fired it as an intermediate weapon, and they could see 10+ years of both Afghanisatan and Iraq to give it some form of credibility!
Well, it could be a whole new future for the L85A2 then, perhaps incorporating licence manufacture, after all we will only be able to let them have small batches in drips and drabs as replacements slowly come on line (not even a competition on the cards yet), unless they are buying the 40,000 ish remaining stored A1's??
I can just see an Indian engineer with an AK bolt carrier and a stripped L85 .... "now if we can just fit this ".... :banghead:
There are no remaining stored L85 A1's The last 'remains' or vestiges of anything remotely connected with the A1 was the L98A1 that was replaced a few years ago. I know this because I was part of that project
Thanks Peter, I was referencing some old info I had, so what happened to the thousands of unmodified A1's in the end, just broken for parts or simply scrapped?
They were all examined, sifted out and converted. Those with totally worn out TMH's (the master component) were reduced to scrap. There was a programme to see whether the remains of the upper halves (of the scrapped TMH lowers) could be salvaged but it was deemed uneconomic due to the fact that not much from the old uppers was actually utilised in the A2 programme. I forget the parts that could be used now....... The gas block(?) and the bare upper housing was easily modified to A2, as zillions were, but the economics as I seem to remember overruled it
The excess LSW's were....... anyway.......
As an update to this post, the internet has shared some photos of the prototyping I was talking about above:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentryduty
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...esearch1-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...esearch3-1.jpg
http://www.popsci.com/sites/popsci.c...?itok=bZVl43k4
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...10/DRDC2-1.jpg
In my opinion makes our current rifle look downright featherweight and sensibile:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...fle03JPG-1.jpg
That looks like an example of the expression 'jack of all trades, master of none'.
That doesn't even look man portable, let alone user friendly or suitable for infantry. Another test that will fall away and waste money. The C7A-whatever rifle short term mid life upgrades will carry the rifle FAR beyond what they express. Specially with the crew in power now, keep your powder dry...it'll need to last a while.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentryduty
Well I have had a considerably different experience with the FN/FAL rifle. I have owned a select fire version for probably 20+ years and shoot it with some regularity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Dick
I also own an M14 select fire rifle and seldom shoot it except on semi! On FA it is a worthless POS!!!
The FN/FAL is a dream to shoot on FA!!! It is Very controllable and thus very accurate. I normally shoot 3 - 5 rd bursts, mostly 3 since it has a beautiful trigger that makes 3rds easy.
I own and shoot about 9 different full autos from SMGs to LMGs and the FN/FAL is by far the most fun to shoot altho a couple of others come very close - the MP 43 comes to mind.
Over the years I have shot a fair variety of full auto weapons of all types/nationalities both in the Army and out, and I can truly say that the FN/FAL I have is better than any of them! (altho I kinda like the RPD, wish I had one.)
Sarge
I'm wondering which pattern you have? Would it be a black one? Not the UK/AUS/CDN version? It would have the original FH, not the slotted tube type? That could make a difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarge
It is an FN/FAL, not Brit, Canadian or ??
Sarge
Attachment 76807Attachment 76809
Great collection Sarge,
Some full auto goodness there! That said, rock and roll on a light rifle seems like a very expensive way of making a loud noise, here in the UK .308 is roughly 75p/$1 a round!
Yes, that's the FH I was expecting. Since it's the original, the one they designed to be with it, it might do a better job of keeping things steady...I haven't shot one of those on auto so I can't say. Guess I'll have to grab about 1000 rds and we can warm that one up. I remember how to clean them...I still have my kit here...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarge
This rifle is an odd ball since it has an Isreali proof mark on the mag housing. No idea how it got to the US, But I'm glad it did!!! Yes, As I said before - it is a dream to shoot on FA!!! Definately one of my top 2 or 3 favorites.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
U'all come on down! We can just exercise the hell out of it! I like shooting pop up targets when ever I get the chance to go to the ranges on the local Army base (which is about anytime I want - pays to know the right people:)).
Sarge
Yes, I've seen those too. They would have been there a long way back. I had one here that was about new and just beautiful...that was a long time ago...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarge
Yep, mine is in Exc cond. I doubt it had been shot much before I got it. I know the guy I bought it from had not shot it.
It is still in Exc cond and I shoot it with some frequency. As said before it is one of my favorites. IF the SHTF it is one of several that I would take with me when I headed for the hills!
Sarge
They were almost artwork. When I cocked it, allow the action forward under it's own power...it would ring like a bell... The outside finish was a rosy black glow, perfect, no marks or scratches. The subsequent owner made a mistake of some sort and when last seen, the rifle was going into the trunk of a cruiser and then I suspect the shredder... Sad end. It was still mint.