Rare early (1971) Lithgow full auto L1A1!!

[mrclark303]

Very interesting video, so from what we can see, HK style cocking system, bolt carrier looks very AK, so can we assume they moved the fixed cocking handle from the bolt carrier and attached it to some sort of disconnecter on the piston body so it no longer reciprocates with the action?

Or have they pushed the boat right out, re-invented the wheel and melded together some sort of HK roller delay / AK back end contraption!

All looking hugely unnecessary, haven't they got better things to be wasting money on?

[Gil Boyd]

Sadly,
Its a lot wider than that unfortunately. If you have ever spent anytime in India, it comes down to a cast system that is as old as the hills, and simply put, comes down to the level of the pecking order in the heirachy of leadership in the Military, to make these unfounded decisions to reinvent the wheel so to speak. Money doesn't come into it when they set about a challenge they just soldier on, and is refelctive of where we are with both unfinished weapons systems.

In partial answer to your question, I think they have looked at all the weapons they trialled and taken the best components from each to make the Excalibur. I would put money on the fact that they have more than likely probably used AKM bits internally.

The way I understood it from those officers I spoke to, its a long way from the finishing post and there is a real reluctance to produce it in vast numbers before serious operational trials by the lads on the ground have agreed it is what they want.

Lots of guarded comments as you can imagine, but as I said earlier, their view, not mine, was, the SA80 had gone through the same pain barriers they are now experiencing, with lots of fingers in the pie, but it has now come through it all and is still a favoured weapon of choice by those that fired it as an intermediate weapon, and they could see 10+ years of both Afghanisatan and Iraq to give it some form of credibility!

[mrclark303]

Well, it could be a whole new future for the L85A2 then, perhaps incorporating licence manufacture, after all we will only be able to let them have small batches in drips and drabs as replacements slowly come on line (not even a competition on the cards yet), unless they are buying the 40,000 ish remaining stored A1's??

I can just see an Indian engineer with an AK bolt carrier and a stripped L85 .... "now if we can just fit this "....

[Peter Laidler]

There are no remaining stored L85 A1's The last 'remains' or vestiges of anything remotely connected with the A1 was the L98A1 that was replaced a few years ago. I know this because I was part of that project

[mrclark303]

Thanks Peter, I was referencing some old info I had, so what happened to the thousands of unmodified A1's in the end, just broken for parts or simply scrapped?

[Peter Laidler]

They were all examined, sifted out and converted. Those with totally worn out TMH's (the master component) were reduced to scrap. There was a programme to see whether the remains of the upper halves (of the scrapped TMH lowers) could be salvaged but it was deemed uneconomic due to the fact that not much from the old uppers was actually utilised in the A2 programme. I forget the parts that could be used now....... The gas block(?) and the bare upper housing was easily modified to A2, as zillions were, but the economics as I seem to remember overruled it

The excess LSW's were....... anyway.......

[Sentryduty]

Well Colt Canada spent some time with my unit doing "trials" before I departed the Army, and while I wasn't part of the trial, I did drop in to look things over and ask some informed questions.

The CC (Diemaco) reps had a series of modular chassis made of aluminium with various pieces that could be moved around to test ergonomics, notable observations of this bit of trials.

The "rifle" was always configured as a "bullpup" with a "D" style drip and guard, like the AUG series. In fact, if you were to look at that Bushmaster M17 rifle, add a D grip. make it silver and shorten the length you would have an excellent visual of their Lego Gun test chassis.

Bushmaster M17S shown for reference
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../2iay6mh-1.jpg

The magazine was much shorter and thicker than the STANAG 5.56mm 30 rounder we know today. The CC Reps, when asked, indicated they are working on some "new" caliber options, no other explanations. If I had to describe it, imagine a magazine that could be a quad-stack of .30 carbine. The same footprint of two extended M1 Carbine 15 round magazines taped together side by side.

The current issue Elcan C79 optic was in use for the trials.

A dummy M203 launcher was also mounted on some, but it was above the bore and the C79 mounted on top of that. The launcher did not work, so no idea how they planned to load or trigger it in that arrangement. Vertical parallax must have been silly as well.

Front pistol grips were mounted, as was some other high-speed junk, no provision or consideration for a bayonet was observed.

At this time, I consider all of the above to be masturbatory vaporware, the CC people didn't seem to be asking the troops what they wanted, they were presenting a school of thought and watching soldiers climb around and pretend to point it at things while squeezing dummy triggers.

From a reality standpoint, the Small Caliber Bullpup Lego Gun worries me, but the C7A2 service life upgrade is only 11 years old at this point, so I think we will not see any new replacement for some time. That, and the defense budget by GDP is the same as Spain and slightly less than Japan.

As an update to this post, the internet has shared some photos of the prototyping I was talking about above:









In my opinion makes our current rifle look downright featherweight and sensibile:

[Paul S.]

That looks like an example of the expression 'jack of all trades, master of none'.

[browningautorifle]

the Small Caliber Bullpup Lego Gun worries me,

That doesn't even look man portable, let alone user friendly or suitable for infantry. Another test that will fall away and waste money. The C7A-whatever rifle short term mid life upgrades will carry the rifle FAR beyond what they express. Specially with the crew in power now, keep your powder dry...it'll need to last a while.

[Sarge]

I've fired both metric and inch pattern rifles on full auto and they're as worthless as tits on a boar hog.

Well I have had a considerably different experience with the FN/FAL rifle. I have owned a select fire version for probably 20+ years and shoot it with some regularity.
I also own an M14 select fire rifle and seldom shoot it except on semi! On FA it is a worthless POS!!!
The FN/FAL is a dream to shoot on FA!!! It is Very controllable and thus very accurate. I normally shoot 3 - 5 rd bursts, mostly 3 since it has a beautiful trigger that makes 3rds easy.
I own and shoot about 9 different full autos from SMGs to LMGs and the FN/FAL is by far the most fun to shoot altho a couple of others come very close - the MP 43 comes to mind.
Over the years I have shot a fair variety of full auto weapons of all types/nationalities both in the Army and out, and I can truly say that the FN/FAL I have is better than any of them! (altho I kinda like the RPD, wish I had one.)
Sarge