Highest known Sterling L34A1 - Mk5 ?

Here are the two currently highest known serial numbered commercial Sterling Mk5's serial # 1597 & # S 4212. The (Guns of Dagenham) book estimates 3500 commercially manufactured, but these serial numbers confirm that estimate as being quite low.

1597 + (S) 4212 = 5809 (by adding the two highest serial numbers);

However PL below states that he believed that Mk5 serial numbers may have restarted at S 1001, if this is the case, the known extant serial numbers would indicate that there were at least 4,809 commercial Mk5's manufactured.

In GoD, PL & DH show (in the early 1970's) 50 unit conversion batches of Mk5 SMGs, if that remained true for all production, possible totals would be 4,850 (based on restarting at S 1001).
now we just have to watch for serial numbers "no letter pre-fix" above 1597 and "S" prefix serial numbers below S 1001 and above S 4212.

and the highest known UK L34A1 (from the Royal Armouries)
US67A423 (again the stated 50 unit batches - so a minimum of 450 units).

Implying a minimum production total of 5,300 L34A1 & Mk5 units.


here is the highest known (so far) pre "S" prefix Sterling Mk5 (1597)
Attachment 123525

Here is the lowest known (so far) "S" prefix Sterling Mk5 (S1185)
Attachment 123527
the bolt is dated 1971
Attachment 123528

Here is Mk5 serial # S 4167, the highest known (so far) Sterling Mk5
Attachment 123526

Lapped by a "SINGLE SHOT" Serial # S4212
Attachment 133874
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread....l=1#post533878


https://www.milsurps.com/showthread....l=1#post387183 Link to post 31 (serial number list)

Nice! And it has the studs to mount scope a rail.

Does it have the drooped cocking handle? Polymer butt?

I seem to recall that the commercial serial numbers started at 1001

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vincent

Nice! And it has the studs to mount scope a rail.

Does it have the drooped cocking handle? Polymer butt?

---

Nope & nope...

Does it have TWO of the round raised 'Posts' on the top of the Reciever?

If so, they WERE intended to mount a scope of some type onto the Weapon. The Military Issue variants did not have these features.

A 'Popular' Scope at the time was the single point red dot optical sight. It never really made it into British Service, but was used by the Practical Rifle boys I recall.

The scope was a Nikko Stirling who had a commercial tie-in with Sterling.

As a matter of interest, there were 50 or so crackle black commercial Sterling Mk5/L34's that were put into the UK MoD system following their seizure by UK Customs in the 80's. They also retained their commercial serial numbers. The matter regarding their seizure was finally settled in a High Court case about 8 or so years ago when it was ordered that the owners and directors of Sterling were honest and acted lawfully in all their undertakings regarding the matter. The Country for whom they were intended - who also acted lawfully - simply went ahead and ordered 50 more silenced guns. Only this time, from H&K!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tankhunter

Does it have TWO of the round raised 'Posts' on the top of the Reciever?

If so, they WERE intended to mount a scope of some type onto the Weapon. The Military Issue variants did not have these features.

A 'Popular' Scope at the time was the single point red dot optical sight. It never really made it into British Service, but was used by the Practical Rifle boys I recall.

---

As of 2009 all of the following was in stock for sale in the US... welcome to the candy store...

http://www.reocities.com/Pentagon/ba...AScopeRail.jpg

http://www.reocities.com/Pentagon/ba...ScopeStuds.jpg

Sterling Publications
http://www.geocities.ws/psarms/SALit...-CoProfile.pdf
http://www.geocities.ws/psarms/SALit...nsBrochure.pdf
http://www.geocities.ws/psarms/SALit...esheet1975.pdf
http://www.geocities.ws/psarms/SALit...k5Foregrip.pdf


PS Arms Sterling Price List

http://www.reocities.com/Pentagon/ba...AMk5ArmKit.jpg

Paul hasn’t maintained his site for many years. You have to call him to see if he has what you are looking for. He sold out of most of the parts years ago.

I wish I had bought one of those Armorers kits for the L34 (Silenced) Sterling. When they were available. A UK Company was selling them off at the time, & I thought to myself.
'I will get one later' & never got around to it!....Dam!!!!!!

The only thing you missed Tankie was the cachet of being able to say that you had one! There was nothing in there that we didn't have readily available to us in the basic tool kit and the usual stuff that we had in the Armourers shops. I always looked on the 'special' Mk5 kit as something like a foresight cramp......... Something for your mates to woweeee about on the range!

The tool kit boxes and the Mk5 special keep your dainty hand cool wood fore-stock thing were made by a little woodworking outfit in Dagenham. That hot hand thinggy....... I mean....... would a silenced gun ever get too hot to handle.........?

I imagine a Mk5 Sterling could get quite hot if things went pear shaped and you had to use several magazines quickly.

The Sten suppressor gets really hot! I will burn you.

mmmmmmm...... we certainly didn't feel the need to adopt the wood grip. Maybe our special forces and sniper teams didn't envisage bouts of rapid or burst fire.

I think the wood grip is used because a thermal sleeve would block the Mk5 front sight.

India uses a full length thermal sleeve.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...02a12010-1.jpg

Their sights are also higher.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...a1203png-1.jpg

I would rather have a full length thermal sleeve than the wood grip. A sleeve would lower the suppressor’s IR signature.

The only ones I ever saw had an old woolen sock pulled over the casing and held on with some string. But that was because he wanted to stop it clattering about while it was diagonally across his front.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

The only thing you missed Tankie was the cachet of being able to say that you had one! There was nothing in there that we didn't have readily available to us in the basic tool kit and the usual stuff that we had in the Armourers shops. I always looked on the 'special' Mk5 kit as something like a foresight cramp......... Something for your mates to woweeee about on the range!

The tool kit boxes and the Mk5 special keep your dainty hand cool wood fore-stock thing were made by a little woodworking outfit in Dagenham. That hot hand thinggy....... I mean....... would a silenced gun ever get too hot to handle.........?

---

Pete, yes I agree. We got by with what we had. BUT...In those 'commercial' tool kits, there was one tool that I would say was a VERY important one. That is the alignment gauge rod. All Parker Hale .22" Supressors had one with them when new. As it is obviously EXTREMELY important, that the internal Baffels are correctly aligned upon reassembly. Otherwise, a Bullet would tear a chunk out of the side of them!

As you will recall, at the front end. There are three Allen headed long tie rods, that hold the front bearing cap on. Tightening these EQUALLY, is an area of concern. As you really DONT want any slight misalignment that would cause damage to those baffels!

I never saw such a gauge in service, & it was up to the skills of the Armourer. To tighten up & set alignment correctly as you know. I suppose some Unit Armourers may well have turned up such a gauge. But I never saw one in my Service time.

but I REALLY would have liked one of these commercial tool kits for my own collection! :(

I concur, as a covert item. The L34 should never be used enough to get hot at all! Thus we deemed the front insulator grip as unnessacary in British service.

Most Armourers of the L34 era were required to make one of the L34 alignment tools from the drawing in the EMER during their 1st class trade test bench fitting phase. Even if they were never to see an L34 again! It was deliberately set for the trainees to think and ponder about setting soch a thing up. Because without a bit of thought, being long, it would........ Anyway, they got there in the end, even if it was after a cou8ple of failed efforts!.

I borrowed mine off Steve XXX one of the RM instructors........ Still got it!

Do you know, I never ever read the E.M.E.R On the L34 Pete!

I just got on with it on the bench, as you do sometimes. I am surprised that the alignment gauge wasn't an issue item TBH.

I was pretty much always loaded with work most of the time at unit. & if I ever needed a particular tool or gauge making. I would mostly bung in a request to Workshops, & their machine shop would manufacture for Me. :D

After all, those Private jobs/ Homers, don't make themselves you know!.......:madsmile:

As well as being Tasked by the QM to fit Radio in His Wifes car. Or make a Mech to ensure a doll jumped out of a cake, Or................You know how it was Mate! :lol:

I seem to remember that the L34 EMER was classed above RESTRICTED and CONFIDENTIAL and therefore numbered to an individual. so they weren't common

The strangest thing that I was ever asked to do was........ and you ain't going to believe this......... was paint a bloody dolls house for one of the EME's kids. He was actually a nice bloke and did a lot of the in depth paperwork that allowed the REME to sponsor me at Uni. We also put a load of his sons well worn, battered and bruised Dinky Toys over to the paint shop and sprayed them khaki. The Sgt running the A&G section saw that they were all Bedford QL's and RL's, Champs and 1 tonners and said that he was going to put them all on official paperwork so that the FORWARD counters (an almost medieval method of time and lack-of-motion study) back at Stats Group (the statistics brain deads) would think that our output was increasing beyond recognition.

This 'FORWARD' method of time accounting and study taught me early on that you should NEVER confuse motion with action. FORWARD stood for something but like most blokes on the front line, someone invented another set of words that could be used. I only remember that the F and the O stood for Fxxxxxx Obstructive......... Anyway...., I digress

Pete, I could 'Digress' with you for hours Buddy! :D Yes in deed, FORWARD has now been replaced by a computer system. Equally Time consuming & time wasting, called JAMES!....:banghead:

Agh James, it's now tri-service. It's supposed to track all our GSE (ground servicing equipment) yet they have to send guys out around the unit every day to find the stuff. As they say, Sh1t in-Sh1t out.

Off at a frustrated tangent...... So time to turn the page if you are so minded!

The sheer irony of these time accounting and lack-of-motion studies is that the senior Warrant Officers running them think that it is wonderful. On the basis that they're there because they aren't going to be commissioned and they think that they can jump into a similar job in civvy life afterwards.

I had to phone a Major up at 'stats' regarding a small problem with FORWARD/JAMES that had percolated downwards like a bucket of crap from one of the WO's at Stats Branch. It had escalated into what seriously looked like becoming a forthcoming discipline matter. To be honest, I didn't understand it all, neither did the Chief Clerk and more to the point, neither did the clerk at PC&A (provision, control and accounting) somewhere else further up or along the food chain. Tom Bowers, the Major (another ex Carlisle boy vehicle mechanic) suggested after a few minutes of huffing and puffing followed by a chat about our old pals from Carlisle that I send the whole bloody lot up to him and endorse the registry bit of this pure guff that we retained '.....on file' to that effect. And that I give the Sgt in the gun-bay suitable words of advice.

It got worse........ Because I was a Capt; AND a called-up Territorial, I was not authorised/qualified to enter the world of discipline - of which 'words of advice' was a part. Words of advice had to be imparted officially by a Major............ I mean, how xxxxxxg difficult could it be..... Back to Tom Bowers..... who told me to tell Sgt Bxxxxx to speak to him in person the following Tuesday. Advice given, crap file 'filed', no written record, Warrant Officer left jumping up and down like a frog on fire and everybody happy - eventually. All except the WO at Stats!

Afterthought. Tankie, was Malcom Bennett one of your Guards Sgt Armourers?

No Pete, not a chap that I came across during my Service Time. I'm afraid.

Yes, as the Service shrinks these days. There are an awful lot of People, trying VERY hard to hang onto their positions. & indeed, attempting to justify their Jobs. (Badly in a lot of cases) Definitely a level of the 'tin God' variety! ....:ugh:

I knew that you, Brit Plumber and Skippy would chuckle at my dealings with 'stats' Tankie. End of going off at tangents for today!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I knew that you, Brit Plumber and Skippy would chuckle at my dealings with 'stats' Tankie. End of going off at tangents for today!

---

:D :lol: :cheers:

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It appears that the GoD book is wrong in regards to serial numbers...this is at least the 3rd Mk5 I've observed without a letter prefix to the serial number. It appears that Mk5 serial numbers were not letter prefixed - probably until James Edmiston took over Sterling and added the "S" for Sisi...rather than "S" for "Silenced" as described in the GoD book.

The PG on this is coded S67 and the serial number is 953
Attachment 123529


This one shows as 278 with no prefix
http://www.armsregister.com/arms_reg..._mkv_l34a1.pdf

Like I say and have said a thousand times before and will repeat a thousand times again, the first person who reads your book immediately knows more than you know. Because he knows ALL that you have just written PLUS the tiny bit he knew before. There are several more accurate books on the subject I'm sure. Maybe it's time to sell your valuable copy of TGOD for the premium prices thay seem to be fetching and get one of the more worthy books.

Just re-read that and it reads a bit facetious. Sorry, it's not meant to be written that way but if it's taken 20 years or so for these 'missing' guns to turn up, that David Howroyd doesn't even recall existed, then it's not bad is it?

My posting is not an indictment, merely an educational comment based on (and supported by photographic evidence) observation.

Your reply raises the question; Have the missing serial number registers ever turned up?

The excellent book which you and Mr. Howroyd authored points out that the serial number list used (and therefore production numbers) is incomplete and reconstructed based on the personal notes of one of the shippers ( not Mr. Howroyd himself)...

Also I would note that the commercial Mk5/ UK military L34A1 started serial production in 1966 (single serial marking photo in GoD), which was more than 20 years before the book was published.

I'm pretty sure that Mr. Howroyd had far more important concerns in 1971 than the serial number prefix of a specific model of gun, and we know that the Mk4/L2A3 line serial numbers restarted from S1 (or whatever low number they picked).

Why would they restart 1 products serial numbers, but not another products?

Having said that, Colt supposedly started serial numbers on their M1903 at 9999 and counted down to 1.

I feel grateful for all new information that comes to light. It’s all interesting to me. Discoveries by members like LE or Peter’s informative tangents…. It’s all good to me.

I love to learn. If I am not doing something, I spend my time trying to learn. And learning something about my favorite SMG…. Well, it often makes my day. :D

Vince, If you keep an open mind in life, you will NEVER Stop learning! Even if you are fortunate enough to possess knowledge.
On a Vast Spectrum of subjects!.....:super:

From photographic evidence it appears that there were approx. 5200 (1000 with no serial prefix and 4200 with the S prefix)commercial Sterling Mk5's produced in addition to the UK MOD order(s).


An observation based on the serial numbers posted on the internet (mostly of new condition guns which were deactivated) is that when Sterling folded, they had guns from approx. serial number S 3200 to S 4200 in stock.

The next observation is that the commercial mag housings were (probably) all roll marked as Mk4 (L2A3) guns, had the " 4 (L2A3) "welded over and then re marked "5 L34A1".

Notice also the lack of brackets surrounding the UK MoD designation on the L34A1.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../20fp4co-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...9/8z1939-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../2rnv960-1.jpg

Notice the smaller font used for " L34A1 " and if you find enough photos (not many exist by the way), sometimes the L34A1 disappears into the mag housing brazing.

These pics just show the spacing between the "5" and the "L34A1" being different from above. And the L34A1 is on a different vertical Plain from the "5".

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../148g4r4-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../2mmhcsj-1.jpg

All of the pictures are stolen from the internet and random websites...

I went trolling through the Royal Armouries on-line collection and found the following serial numbers. These guns are all catalogued as "Silenced", or "Suppressed" , unfortunately, none of them have available photos - several of them however were used to illustrate the GoD book:

06 Patchett MkII Experimental w/ suppressor PR.7329

SV1 (In an incomplete condition) Centrefire automatic silenced submachine gun - Sterling L2A3 Experimental (about 1958) -Silenced PR.1434 Centrefire automatic suppressed submachine gun - Sterling L2A3 Experimental (about 1958) - Royal Armouries collections
SV2 Trials model Centrefire automatic submachine gun - Sterling L2A3, Experimental PR.7607 3.6.18Sterling Patchett (L2A3) Experimental SV (Silent version) Centrefire automatic submachine gun - Sterling Patchett (L2A3) Experimental SV (Silent version) (about 1965) - Royal Armouries collections
SV3 Centrefire automatic silenced submachine gun - Sterling L2A3 Experimental - about 1958 - Silenced PR.1431 built on a rejecyed Fazakerley made casing,The Patchett push rod-activated silencer
SV4 " Silenced" Centrefire automatic silenced submachine gun - Sterling L2A3 Experimental - about 1958 PR.1432 built on a rejecyed Fazakerley made casing The push rod has been eliminated
SV6 (In an incomplete condition) Centrefire automatic suppressed submachine gun - Experimental Sterling L2A3 - about 1958 PR.1429 The push rod has been eliminated, incomplete
SV8 "Silenced" about 1958 - Centrefire automatic silenced submachine gun - Sterling L2A3 Experimental PR.1433 Sterling Patchett (L2A3) Experimental SV (Silent version),The push rod has been eliminated

- this serial number looks really interesting - was Faz going to spool up, or was it just one of the re-used receiver casings? No date in the production code is shown -

UFSV01 "Integrally silenced" "A prototype L34A1" Centrefire automatic silenced submachine gun - Sterling-Patchett L2A3 Experimental -about 1956-1967 PR.7335

[I] "NVN" means "No Visible Number" - Warren suggests which seems to make the most sense.

NVN (A Saben & Hart design) Centrefire automatic silenced submachine gun - Sterling L2A3 Experimental (examined & listed in tGoD) PR.7606
NVN (Conversion to silenced) Centrefire automatic silenced submachine gun - Sterling L2A3 Experimental (about 1956-1993) - NOTTINGHAM; RO PR.9159

DD1 This gun was used by the RSAF Enfield Design & Development Department (D&DD) for sub-sonic ammunition and silencer experiments. They utilised ex-Fazakerley L2A3 casings. PR.1423
DD3 "With Enfield detachable silencer" Centrefire automatic silenced submachine gun RSAF Enfield experimental gun PR.7605 [One of these 2 could actually be DD2]
DD3 This gun was used by the RSAF Enfield Design & Development Department (D&DD) for sub-sonic ammunition and silencer experiments. They utilised ex-Fazakerley L2A3 casings. (examined & listed in tGoD) PR.1418 [One of these 2 could actually be DD2]
DD4 This gun was used by the RSAF Enfield Design & Development Department (D&DD) for sub-sonic ammunition and silencer experiments. They utilised ex-Fazakerley L2A3 casings. PR.1421
DD5 This gun was used by the RSAF Enfield Design & Development Department (D&DD) for sub-sonic ammunition and silencer experiments. They utilised ex-Fazakerley L2A3 casings. PR.1422

- We know from the photo in GoD that these guns are US66A002 & US66A003 apparently the 2nd & 3rd UK MOD production L34A1's -

US66A002 (Integrally silenced) Centrefire automatic silenced submachine gun - Sterling L34A1 PR.1436 (updated 8.4.17)
US66A003 Integrally silenced "about 1966" Centrefire automatic silenced submachine gun - Sterling L34A1 (examined & listed in tGoD) PR.1437
US67A205 Centrefire automatic silenced submachine gun - Sterling L34A1 - Presented by the Ministry of Defence PR.8405
US67A423 (Integrally silenced) Gifted with the Pattern Room from the Ministry of Defence, 2005 - Centrefire automatic silenced submachine gun - Sterling-Patchett L34A1 PR.7336

- Photographic evidence indicates that approx. 1600+ commercial Mk5's were built before the "S" serial prefix was added in 1972 - tGoD seems to suggest 50 unit commercial batches starting #(S)001 on 20 June 1966 and reaching serial #(S)1150 in Feb 1972, (this batch presumably reaching #(S)1200). While the serial # list in tGoD suggests that all of the Mk5's had an "S" prefix I believe the evidence shows that we can discount a prefix on the Mk5 until James Edmiston changed the prefix on the Mk4 when he took over in 1972.

152 "Law Enforcement Athens Georgia" ARS gun in US c.2009 (photos) https://www.milsurps.com/showthread....l=1#post470900
278 (Commercial gun in New Zealand in link posted above) (Arms Register)
293 Integrally silenced Centrefire automatic silenced submachine gun -Presented by the Ministry of Defence PR.7337 updated description 3.6.18 Sterling Patchett Mk.5 (L34A1) commercial model (made 1968)Integrally silenced with crackle finish
297 Mk5 live and for sale in UK CG firearms Sterling SMG 9mm Supressed (L34A1/Mk.5) | cgfirearms
867 Maschinenpistole, GB-Ord. Sterling MK5 L 38 A1, lot 16431, http://www.kesslerauktionen.ch/Katal.../Katalog16.pdf
887Maschinenpistole, Sterling SMG MK 5, Kal. 9 mmP. , no handguard, Kessler Auktionen AG auction 43 lot # 43841 sold for 1100chf Nov 10-11, 2017 http://www.kesslerauktionen.ch/Katal.../katalog43.pdf
953 (see photo posted above) (Chicago Regimentals)
980 (Chicago Regimentals)
1062 Single shot issued to Sussex Police (Presented by Sussex Police 2003. Police no. S/2/01B. Previously on issue to Sussex Police, Single Shot, Mk5) Centrefire automatic submachine gun - Sterling Mk.V date 1970 XII.11669
1283 demilled in USA on Gunbroker 10.4.23 https://www.milsurps.com/showthread....l=1#post532818 https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1011695123
1430 wood handguard, straight cocking handle and no studs -dealer sample Ohio Ordnance USA The L34A1 Sterling Submachine Gun: A Stormtroopers Weapon of Choice! - YouTube
1493 US "pre-86" Dealer Sample Armalite - Costa Mesa CA marked as importer bolt date S72 Lot Detail - (N) FANTASTIC STERLING ARMAMENT MODEL MK V INTEGRALLY SUPPRESSED MACHINE GUN (PRE-86 DEALER SAMPLE).
1528 US "pre-86" Dealer Sample, bolt dated "S72" missing outer tube and baffles "Law Enforcement Ordinance, Athens Georgia" https://www.rockislandauction.com/de...submachine-gun
1532 US "pre-86" Dealer Sample, bolt dated "S72" "Law Enforcement Ordinance, Athens Georgia" Lot Detail - (N) STERLING ARMAMENT CO. L34A1 MACHINE GUN WITH STERLING ARMAMENT CO. SUPPRESSOR (PRE-86 DEALER SAMPLE).
1597 US "pre-86" Dealer Sample, ARS https://dealernfa.com/shop/mkv-sterl...r-xs1597-1597/


- while we don't know (photographically) where the numbers were restarted when the serial prefix was added in 1972, although GoD states that production resumed in April 1973 at serial # S1200, and PL above suggests that they may have started at S1001 -

I wonder if the COD (Central Ord. Depot) Donnington sourced guns below weren't the ones which ruined James Edmiston and led to the witch hunt... and which PL above says were later "bought in by MOD"

S1115, read as "57775" (see NOTE at bottom)
S1185 (bolt dated S71, PG dated S73) Deac at Citadel.ru ММГ Бесшумный пистолет-пулемет Sterling L34A1 / Mk.5
S1634 A R S crinkle paint https://www.milsurps.com/showthread....l=1#post534344
S1650 (listed in tGoD as first of a batch in October 1976)
S1678 Sterling-Patchett Sub-machine Gun 9mm Mk5, "crinkle" finish w/ wooden foregrip. SMG 9m/m MK5 L34A1 Sterling-Patchett Sub-machine Gun 9mm Mk5 bolt date coded 1978 (this one is in the Imperial War Museum - Argentinian Falklands capture)
S1686 (highest serial number listed in tGoD with notation "following records incomplete")
S1929 (examined for magwell markings & listed in tGoD)
S2206 "Integrally silenced" Centrefire automatic silenced submachine gun - Sterling Mk.5 PR.1435
S2238 Mk5, Pistol Grip dated 1972, Singapore Police rack Number SPF 33 (bolt date hidden) US Dealer Sample 4.25.23 https://www.gunbroker.com/item/983263982 Sterling Mk5 - YouTube
S2248 DEAC dwsuk
S3073 Maschinenpistole, Sterling SD, Kal. 9mm Para. http://www.kesslerauktionen.ch/Katal...KatalogSIG.pdf lot # SIG399
S3220 Excellent Condition British Mk.5 Silent Sterling – SN 220 MJL Militaria[product-gallery]/8
S3268 (see photo posted above)
S3301 (see photo posted above)forend, grip, no mount buttons,
S3304 Mk5, marked "34" "1" "SAFE", no studs, wood forend S81 bolt, S86 PG - CMS
S3305 Mk5 Collectorssource
S3315 Helston Gunsmiths, fixed plastic stock, no studs Untitled 1
S3320 Iraq capture 10.10.09 Green0 ar15.Look What FEDEX brought Sat STERLING MK5!!!! - AR15.COM
S3510 Mk5, marked "34" "1" "SAFE", no studs, wood forend S87 bolt, - Pre-May '86 US Dealer sample https://dealernfa.com/shop/mkv-sterl...it-s3510-3510/
S3530 "Short model" Centrefire automatic silenced submachine gun - Sterling MK.VS - NOTTINGHAM; RO PR.9165
S3554 Mk5, marked "34" "1" "SAFE", no studs, wood forend S79 bolt, S75 PG "Sterling Dagenham/Lanchester USA Dallas Texas" US Pre-86 Dealer Sample https://www.gunbroker.com/item/957491740 11.18.22
S3570 Centrefire automatic silenced submachine gun - Sterling L34A1 (about 1967-1993) -COD DONNINGTON PR.9385
S3606 Mk5 Mk5, marked "34" "1" "SAFE", no studs, wood forend S81 bolt, S86 PG dealer sample STERLING MKV - NEW, UNFIRED WITH 2 MAGS AND SLING - Machine Guns at GunBroker.com : 793648389
S3666 wood handguard, no studs, high night vision mount, no scope Lot 42895: Maschinenpistole, Sterling SMG MK 5, Kal. 9mmP Kessler Auktionen AG April 22, 2017 http://www.kesslerauktionen.ch/Katal.../katalog42.pdf
S3693 "Integrally Silenced" Sterling Patchett Mk.5 (L34A1) commercial model PR.1438(made 1982) Gifted to the Ministry of Defence Pattern Room by H.M. Customs & Excise, Lower Thames Street, London, June 1986
S3705 (With wooden grip) Centrefire automatic silenced submachine gun - Sterling Patchett Mk.5 (L34A1) - Integrally silenced PR.7338 -Gifted to the Ministry of Defence Pattern Room by H.M. Customs & Excise, Lower Thames Street, London, June 1986
S3710 Mk5, marked "34" "1" "SAFE", Black wood grip, scope studs, bolt dated s83 (G&A video) Class III: Sterling L34A1 - Guns Ammo
S3747 Centrefire automatic silenced submachine gun - Sterling L34A1 - COD DONNINGTON PR.9384
S3748 Single shot model - Centrefire self-loading silenced submachine gun - Sterling Patchett Mk.V (L34A1) - NOTTINGHAM; RO PR.9162 updated description 3.6.18 Transferred to the Pattern Room from Royal Ordnance PLC, Nottingham, March 1993
S3789 Mk5, marked "34" "1" "SAFE", no studs, for sale on Gunbroker 9.8.17 url="http://www.gunbroker.com/item/692755798"]http://www.gunbroker.com/item/692755798This Pre May ('86) Dealer Sample is the suppressed version of the..Sterling...original Factory gun with perfect finish. Considered..most quiet 9mm suppressed SMG.
S3799 [SIZE="1"]"with sight mount" Sterling Patchett Mk.5PC (L34A1) commercial model - NOTTINGHAM; RO PR.9161 Centrefire self-loading silenced submachine gun - Sterling Patchett Mk.5PC (L34A1) commercial model (made 1985)
S3800 reported in NZ https://www.milsurps.com/showthread....l=1#post530411
S3818 "Short Single Shot" Sterling MkVS PR.9164
S3875 Mk5, studs, black foregrip - GSL GSL Technology - The Company That Built Gemtech - The Firearm BlogThe Firearm Blog
S3889 Mk5, 34, 1, Safe, Studs ??????????-??????Mk5???????? ?????????????????????_???????
S3893 mk5, 34, 1, safe studs, bent cocking handle, wood forend 11.21.23 MINT Condition Original Silenced Sterling Mk5 - MJL Militaria
S3898 Maschinenpistole, Sterling SMG MK 5, Kal. 9mmP , lot #40175 http://www.kesslerauktionen.ch/Katal.../katalog40.pdf , has scope studs
S3906 "Skeleton" Centrefire automatic silenced submachine gun - Sterling Patchett Mk.V (L34A1) - NOTTINGHAM; RO PR.9163 Centrefire automatic silenced submachine gun - Sterling Patchett Mk.5 (L34A1), skeleton (about 1967-1993) - Royal Armouries collections
S3918 "Single shot model" Centrefire self-loading silenced submachine gun - Sterling Patchett Mk.V (L34A1) - NOTTINGHAM; RO (examined & listed in tGoD) PR.9160 Transferred to the Pattern Room from Royal Ordnance PLC, Nottingham, March 1993
S3927 (see photo posted above) (Chicago Regimentals)
S3951 (see photo posted above) (Chicago Regimentals)
S3957, a standard commercial gun with the Stanag mounting studs on the top of the body - woodsy
S3988 mk5, 34, 1, safe studs, bent cocking handle, wood forend, chicago regimentals http://www.regimentals.jp/detail_gun.php?id=5964
S3995 Mk5, 34, 1, SAFE, studs, bent cocking handle, wood forend, bolt dated S83, collectorssource
S4003 Mk5, marked "34" "1" "SAFE", studs, wood forend CS
S4058 (PS Arms dealer sample demilled May 2001 in USA for parts kit)
S4064 (Commercial gun in New Zealand in link posted above) (Arms Register)
S4106 Mk5, marked "34" "1" "SAFE", Range gun in vegas - wood handguard, bent cocking handle and mounting studs (Battle Field Vegas 2017)
S4141 mk5 in NZ 9mm British Mark 5 L34A1 Sterling Machine Gun Suppressed. - Collector Weapons
S4144 (With crinkle finish and a wooden forend) Purchased from Helston Gunsmiths, June 1999 Centrefire automatic silenced submachine gun - Sterling Patchett Mk.5 (L34A1) commercial model Sterling Patchett Mk.5 (L34A1) commercial model (made 1987)
S4154 mk5, 34, 1, safe studs, bent cocking handle, wood forend 11.21.23 MINT Condition Original Silenced Sterling Mk5 - MJL Militaria
S4156 https://www.milsurps.com/showthread....l=1#post534157
S4157 mk5, 34, 1, safe studs, bent cocking handle, wood forend
S4167 (see photo posted above)
S4173 mk5, 34, 1, safe studs, bent cocking handle, wood forend "American Liberator" on youtube and https://www.instagram.com/jumboshrim...l/C4BmMc9rA2N/ 4.27.24
S4212 Single shot model PROMO UK dealer pic. 11.15.23 https://www.milsurps.com/showthread....l=1#post533878 Untitled 1


LA2 Semiautomatic 9mm Carbine Mk6, long front tube like OGT Peter Wilke Mk9 Untitled 1
LA3 Semiautomatic 9mm Carbine Mk6, long front tube like OGT Peter Wilke Mk9 (Helston Gunsmiths 4.2.25)

Note: where "PR.1234" is listed it is the Royal Armouries at Leeds inventory number
and a weird outlier:

probably handwritten S1115, read as "57775":
S 1115:
57775 Maschinenpistole, Sterling SMG MK 5, Kal. 9mmP, lot 42921 Kessler Auktionen AG April 22, 2017 [url="http://www.kesslerauktionen.ch/Kataloge/Katalog/katalog42.pdf"]
I theorize that the "5" is a mis-read "S", but 7775 is far too high...unless this is a 1957 dated receiver?? one of the test guns? a homebuilt? re-serialized?
-misread or mistyped in the catalogue description? S 1115 is tempting, but S 1185 doesn't show serifs on the "1"s.

Tour of Battlefield: Vegass gun vault with 500+ machine guns! - YouTube

Quote:

---

S3530 "Short model" Centrefire automatic silenced submachine gun - Sterling MK.VS - NOTTINGHAM; RO

---

Would this “Short model” be like S3818 (deleted forward expansion chamber), only open-bolt and capable of automatic fire?

Some of the more modern Mk5 suppressors have baffles in the forward chamber.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...aft20can-1.jpg

The area around the barrel has a thin sleeve inside the tube. It keeps the carbon buildup inside and makes getting the outer tube off easy. You can still see the larger hole where the bayonet lug was and the flat area for the bayonet handle. There’s a barrel busing and the rear inner suppressor rear cap is also the barrel nut. The blast baffle chamber is vented into the outer chamber and expansion chamber below the front sight. There’s another small expansion chamber between the front cap and the forward inner suppressor.

Just to add to the list, I have #S3957, a standard commercial gun with the Stanag mounting studs on the top of the body.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Just to add to the list, I have #S3957, a standard commercial gun with the Stanag mounting studs on the top of the body.

---

I would love to see some pictures if you get a chance.

Attachment 79859
Serial number S3957:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vincent

Would this “Short model” be like S3818 (deleted forward expansion chamber), only open-bolt and capable of automatic fire?

Some of the more modern Mk5 suppressors have baffles in the forward chamber.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...aft20can-1.jpg


The area around the barrel has a thin sleeve inside the tube. It keeps the carbon buildup inside and makes getting the outer tube off easy. You can still see the larger hole where the bayonet lug was and the flat area for the bayonet handle. There’s a barrel bushing and the rear inner suppressor rear cap is also the barrel nut. The blast baffle chamber is vented into the outer chamber and expansion chamber below the front sight. There’s another small expansion chamber between the front cap and the forward inner suppressor.

---

Attachment 123533
does that mean you don't have the diffuser tube inside the rolled screen?
Attachment 123534
Attachment 123535
Attachment 123536
Attachment 123530
Attachment 123531
Attachment 123532

I've lost track of where this thread is but the factory 'shortie' was nothing more than a short, 1" or so long forward expansion chamber tube that fitted over the front part of the alloy foresight block band in place of the longer standard forward section. 3x shortened rods replaced the standard rods and the standard end cap fitted into the short forward expansion chamber. Locked in place by the notoriously fickle hex recessed locking nuts.

In short, the standard gun did away with the forward expansion or plenum chamber. Not a good move as the plenum chamber acted as a vehicle for another well thought out design to operate properly.

The production guns commenced at S-1001

The foil wrapping was simply commercial oven insulation material cut to size and rolled. It was said to be easy to unroll, clean and re-wrap......... Don't even bother. It is a total pain ITA to do. Just replace every 100 or so rounds. To be honest, if you are shooting sub-sonic ammo then don't even bother to use the vented barrel and all that that entails. Just use a standard modified barrel threaded at the front and machined inside the rear flange. The rear section of the gun is all about not letting the bullet reach the speed of sound - which it won't if it is already sub-sonic! Maybe that will help understand why.......... Won't complicate matters.........

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Attachment 79859
Serial number S3957:)

---

Wow! It looks great, Woodsy. Thanks for posting the picture.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lee Enfield

does that mean you don't have the diffuser tube inside the rolled screen?

---

It didn’t come with the tube or screen, just coarse stainless wool. I throw it away and put fresh in when I clean. It’s the same stuff Scotch-Brite stainless scrubbing pads are made from. Costs about $1.50 each time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

... the factory 'shortie' was nothing more than a short, 1" or so long forward expansion chamber tube that fitted over the front part of the alloy foresight block band in place of the longer standard forward section. 3x shortened rods replaced the standard rods and the standard end cap fitted into the short forward expansion chamber. Locked in place by the notoriously fickle hex recessed locking nuts.

In short, the standard gun did away with the forward expansion or plenum chamber. Not a good move as the plenum chamber acted as a vehicle for another well thought out design to operate properly.

---

Thanks Peter.

Does the end cap need the standard-length plenum to work correctly?

The spiral diffuser is very interesting to me. Do you know how the gas flows through it? I am guessing there’s an interaction between gas flowing through the spiral and gas entering through the center hole?

I am also guessing the spiral creates some kind of vortex in the forward expansion chamber?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vincent

The spiral diffuser is very interesting to me. Do you know how the gas flows through it? I am guessing there’s an interaction between gas flowing through the spiral and gas entering through the center hole?

I am also guessing the spiral creates some kind of vortex in the forward expansion chamber?

---

The spiral diffuser is based on the spiral baffle system used in the WW2 De Lisle Commando Carbine. The theory is that as the expanding gases spiral through the baffles they are exposed to a much greater metal surface. This speeds the cooling of the gases and reduces the volume of them so that by the time they have reached the muzzle there is very little residual pressure. The largest part of the muzzle 'bang' of a firearm is the hot gases striking the cool air as they exit. The spiral baffle is an efficient way of cooling the gases without making the silencer body excessively long.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Woodsy

The spiral diffuser is based on the spiral baffle system used in the WW2 De Lisle Commando Carbine. The theory is that as the expanding gases spiral through the baffles they are exposed to a much greater metal surface. This speeds the cooling of the gases and reduces the volume of them so that by the time they have reached the muzzle there is very little residual pressure. The largest part of the muzzle 'bang' of a firearm is the hot gases striking the cool air as they exit. The spiral baffle is an efficient way of cooling the gases without making the silencer body excessively long.

---

Thanks, Woodsy. :thup: That’s an interesting theory.

This video shows very little gas being expelled through the muzzle compared to the breech. Also, there appears to be no first round pop. The second round sounds just like the first.

sterling L 34 silenced - YouTube

I remember a slow-motion film clip of Mk5 suppressor with clear plastic cover over a cut away. You could see how the gas passed through the suppressor. It was many years ago, and crude by today’s standard but it was good enough to get the gist of it.

I had one of those here for a short time too. It was someone else's though and I didn't get to properly wring it out, always something I would have liked.

When you are firing the L34/ MK V Sterling. It will sound to you like a .22" Short cartridge report. If you stand say 15 feet away & listen whilst some else fires it. You wont hear a thing, not even the mechanical sound of the bolt going forwards!

It is superb design, & item of engineering!

Thank you for updating the thread, LE.

I don’t remember seeing these two before.

Centrefire automatic suppressed submachine gun - Sterling L2A3 Experimental (about 1958) - Royal Armouries collections

Centrefire automatic submachine gun - Sterling Patchett (L2A3) Experimental SV (Silent version) (about 1965) - Royal Armouries collections

Looks like they were made using Fazakerley guns.

I like the short one from 1958. Wonder of they used a short barrel too? I'd like to have a look...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vincent

Thank you for updating the thread, LE.

I don’t remember seeing these two before.

Centrefire automatic suppressed submachine gun - Sterling L2A3 Experimental (about 1958) - Royal Armouries collections

Centrefire automatic submachine gun - Sterling Patchett (L2A3) Experimental SV (Silent version) (about 1965) - Royal Armouries collections

Looks like they were made using Fazakerley guns.

---

Just a note on the dates many of the experimental guns listed by the Royal Armouries staff: A lot of the Royal Armouries dates are (generally) out to lunch in their descriptions - how could a salvaged Fazakerley L2A3 casing be used in 1953 - 1955... 2-3 years before the L2A3 existed?

Physical Description: built on a rejecyed Fazakerley made casing.


Faz manufactured production L2A3 in '57, '58, '59 so the earliest the L2A3 project guns could have been is 1957... and from the (very few available) dated examples, Fazakerley L2A3's dated 1957 do not have the (distinctive) flanged magazine housing.
Markings and Spares sterlingl2a3.com
http://armamentresearch.com/wp-conte...2271755_WM.jpg

And the Patchett L2A3 "Silenced Version" test reports date to 1961 (15 Nov 1961 for the attached)...found one dated march 22, 1960 too.
https://www.smallarmsreview.com/arch...cfm?arcid=1746

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by browningautorifle

I like the short one from 1958. Wonder of they used a short barrel too? I'd like to have a look...

---

Actually BAR, this one is incomplete, we are looking at just the bearing surfaces for the silencer casing...it appears that they put a sleeve across the whole of the front receiver tube covering the cooling holes. If you blow up the photos you can clearly see that the tube between the bearing surfaces is larger in diameter than the rear section of the casing.

Yes, it would be nice to see the suppressor internals.

Did you see the Mk5


Centrefire automatic silenced submachine gun - Sterling Patchett Mk.5 (L34A1), skeleton (about 1967-1993) - Royal Armouries collections

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vincent

Yes, it would be nice to see the suppressor internals.

Did you see the Mk5


Yes, it would be nice to see the suppressor internals.

Did you see the Mk5


Centrefire automatic silenced submachine gun - Sterling Patchett Mk.5 (L34A1), skeleton (about 1967-1993) - Royal Armouries collections

---

There is a line drawing in c. 1978 Small Arms of the World which is also in Nelson & Lockhoven IIRC, it shows the ["current" baffle stack e.t.a This is wrong from review of the drawings] with a piston passing thru the top of the baffle stack and flapper (presumably located where the screws on either side of the casing below the front sight).

Attachment 130983 Pachett L2A3 Silenced Version

Attachment 130985
Attachment 130986 Sterling L34A1 / Mk5




So the pictures in Small Arms of the World are of the L34 type baffle system. The line drawings of both are in "the World's Machine pistols and Submachine Guns" by Nelson and Musgrave. printed 1980 and still one of the best reference books available. The whole series (starting in 1963) is highly recommended.
Attachment 95544
It appears to only have a single reflex type baffle, similar in concept to the end cap. The space between the baffle and the front sight housing appears to have space for several more baffles.
Attachment 95545
Attachment 95547
Attachment 95546


https://www.milsurps.com/showthread....l=1#post387183 Link to post 31 (serial number list)

The push-rod actuator system shown above was doomed to failure from the word go. Within a few rounds the rod and its mechanism would/will foul up with carbon. The muzzle cap designed by Patchett is also an important feature of the L34/Mk5. Can I presume that everyone knows about this important feature before I say it again?

The short one, not sanctioned by Patchett for audible reasons didn't leave space.volume for a mathematical formula to operate effectively so was never(?) an available option. But there are reports that some were '.....supplied'

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

The short one, not sanctioned by Patchett for audible reasons didn't leave space.volume for a mathematical formula

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lee Enfield

Actually BAR, this one is incomplete, we are looking at just the bearing surfaces for the silencer casing

---

That follows, bigger is better in those. I do know that for a fact. I know it's a pipedream, somewhat like the tiny silencers you see in movies or portrayed on revolvers in movies. None are feasible.

There's a rule of thumb that the FREE area inside the silencer casing (that's the volumetric FREE area and not including baffles etc etc0 must be 27 barrel volumes. Don't quote me on the 27 figure, it's from memory. But it's all to do with the mathematical physics of it all. Someone PM'd me about the mechanics of the Patchett muzzle cone earlier so I'll describe the theory and practice tomorrow. Sure I said about it some time ago.........

Do you remember what the 2 screws (1 on either side) below the front sight are for?

Attachment 95569
Attachment 95568
Attachment 95567

I initially thought that they could be the "axle" that the flapper valve operated on, but now after viewing the drawings, I'm thinking that they were meant to hold the front sight fixture to the tube "fixing" that was simplified to a single socket screw on the production gun?

Attachment 95572
Attachment 95573

No, don't know what those two screws are for but it's not a Sterling production gun and obviously nothing to do with zeroing either. I would imagine that that they are retainers for the foresight housing. The locator being the larger 4BA(?) allen bolt seen at the 6 o'clock position. In real life the 'retainers' are not required because the muzzle cap is pulled rearwards against the rods and clamps the foresight block in place. The 'locator' and the steel stud in the brass front barrel centraliser keeps everything aligned. Another bit of useless Enfield sort-of related info

If anyone has got one of these guns that they use regularly then I'd suggest that they replace the awful rods and muzzle screws with stainless steel. The originals were a total PITA.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

…. In real life the 'retainers' are not required because the muzzle cap is pulled rearwards against the rods and clamps the foresight block in place. The 'locator' and the steel stud in the brass front barrel centraliser keeps everything aligned. Another bit of useless Enfield sort-of related info.

---

It’s all good information, Peter.

Do you know if there was a good reason for the front site guard to be put on backwards? Or was Enfield copying Sterling again and didn’t get it right.. again?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by browningautorifle

That follows, bigger is better in those. I do know that for a fact. I know it's a pipedream, somewhat like the tiny silencers you see in movies or portrayed on revolvers in movies. None are feasible.

---

Well, here in good Ol Texas, USA, it’s a fact of life.. bigger is always better! But if you really want to kill geckos at 02:00 and not disturb the neighbors with a tiny suppressor, get a Gemtech Aurora 2. It’s good for about ten geckos before you need to replace the wipes. It’s a bit like the front of the old Knights “tooth chipper”, only without the blast chamber and sights.

What sight guard is on the wrong way Vince? The foresight protectors were odd-legged so as to clear the shape of the foresight blades

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vincent

Gemtech Aurora 2

---

Neat, I'll take two...

A US "Dealer Sample" Sterling Mk5 imported to the US by Armalite sold at auction last week. It's serial number was No. 1493 (no letter prefix) supports the conclusion that serial numbers re-started for the Mk5 with the Letter Pre-fix "S" for Sisi (Sisi was James Edmiston's wife).

Also attached is the lowest (so far) seen "S" prefix Mk5 No. S1185

I would note that: 1493's bolt is dated 1972, while S1185's bolt is date 1971, while it's PG is dated 1973.

so there seems to have been a small overlap in parts dates - though both PG and bolts are replaceable parts, they do match nicely with probably manufacture dates (Mr. Edmiston bought Sterling in 1972 and is recorded as having the serial number pre-fix of "S" added at that date to Mk4 production).


Here is the list of known numbers https://www.milsurps.com/showthread....l=1#post387183

I still have copies of the Mk.5/L34A1 EMER if in need. I also have the EMERs for the Patchett through Mk.4/L2A1, illustrated parts catalogues and beautiful user handbooks.

---------- Post added at 03:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:34 PM ----------

Almost forgot: I also have the Infantry Training Pam available.

Get 'em while they're still available.

Found 2 more "Dealer Sample" pre "S" serial number pre-fix Mk5s for sale in the US

Serial Numbers 1528 and 1532, Both imported by "Law Enforcement Ordnance" of Athens Georgia, both have bolts dated 1972.

Serial Number 1528 (note you can just see the barrel porting)
https://www.rockislandauction.com/de...les-sample-smg
Attachment 131749
Attachment 131750
Attachment 131751


Serial Number 1532 (you can see how the outer casing tube was marked)
Attachment 131752
Attachment 131753
Attachment 131754
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread....l=1#post387183 link to the update serial number list

Attachment 106482

The lowest commercial Mk5 so far (Serial # 152)...and in the US - should have been manufactured c.1967/68 ...possibly early enough to be transferable in the USA depending on when it was imported!!??

1597 US "pre-86" Dealer Sample, ARS https://dealernfa.com/shop/mkv-sterl...r-xs1597-1597/
Attachment 118019
and now very close to 1600 serials before the "S" prefix was added

started adding replacement photos

US "Dealer's Sample" former Singapore Police "SPF 33" (marked on bottom of mag well)
POST-86 DEALER SAMPLE

Sterling Mk5 - YouTube
Attachment 130977
Attachment 130978
Attachment 130979
Attachment 130980
S2238 Mk5, Pistol Grip dated 1972 (bolt date hidden) https://www.gunbroker.com/item/983263982

Sienna Armory LLC

Yep, they're sure neat. I only handled one years ago but it makes you want one.

Centrefire automatic silenced submachine gun - Sterling Patchett Mk.5 (L34A1), skeleton (about 1967-1993) - Royal Armouries collections

S3906 from the Royal Armouries collection

Attachment 130981
Attachment 130982

Ressurrecting this thread from the dead to show my "sort of" MK5, although the correct designation is actually Mk IV. There were apparently only 13 of these specifically manufactured in a special run for Peter Wilke of Ontaria Gun and Tackle, a prolific Canadian dealer in military surplus firearms and associated exotica/raffica back primarily during the 1980s. They are a semi-automatic-only, closed-bolt gun, built on a Mk 5 Receiver, to include the 3 Alignment/End-Cap threaded Rods. There are no internals (Mesh, Spiral Diffuser, etc) as the barrel runs the length of the Suppressor Casing to project just past the End-Cap. The right side of the Trigger Housing is engraved "Sterling, England" over top of "O.G.T. Canada" to denote the special run between Sterling and Wilke.


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...13162732-1.jpg

Sterling SMG 9mm Supressed (L34A1/Mk.5) | cgfirearms

Live Mk5 for sale in the UK

Serial # 297

Attachment 131746
Attachment 131747
Attachment 131748

L34A1 S3800 is in NZ, I got to handle it the other day. New condition, what a lovely piece of kit I think the bolt is dated 1985

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nzl1a1collector

what a lovely piece of kit

---

They are. Makes you immediately want to go shooting.

Talking of the Singapore Police. We used to be the Base Workshop facility for them and the Inspector that we dealt with was a Mr Soliano. He was always pretty good to us, taking one or two of us into Singapore when we were dowwn from 'up-country' for various reasons, the main one being WORP's - or War Office Repair Programmes. The first L34's I ever saw were the New Zealand Army ones that were landed there and soon afterwards, th local SPF police ones. These were commercial ones with hand grips and if I remember correctly, small rubber disposable buffers in the return spring cap.

The NZ Army ones were '.....up North.....' without wooden grips

Ironically, seeing 'Mr Sterling' next week!

Attachment 132382

notice the marking overwritten below the Mk5 designation

Ah, yes..... Well spotted. The L designation, such as L2A3 or L34 was often - but NOT always - stamped after the commercial Mk type designation to indicate the gun was in fact identical to the UK Military L2 or L34 gun and as a result, the spare parts, and what you were getting/buying were one and the same. It also informed UK Armourers where ordnance resources were pooled, such as Malaya etc, that a 'foreign' gun that came through was a big standard L2 - or L34.

The miscellaneous instructions EMER did mention that in operational theatres where Ordnance stocks came from pooled resources, Armourers and quartermasters should be aware that gun serial numbers would not always conform to the accepted standard. We did see quite a few RNZN, New Zealand Navy, marked commercial L2A3's from the Naval dockyards at Sembawang

1283 demilled in USA on Gunbroker.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1011695123

Attachment 133245
there are 2 muzzle supports and 6 tie rods, indicating that perhaps, 2 guns were destroyed.
odd that the diffuser wrap and diffuser tube show signs of being destroyed/damaged.

really interesting photos showing the spacers between the baffles. and the 2 brass end baffles.
Attachment 133242
Attachment 133243
Attachment 133244

Looks to me, looking on as an amateur, that this is a made-up gun. Made up from an Mk4 casing. Can't say for sure but the blurry indistinct image of the magazine housing says a lot

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

the blurry indistinct image of the magazine housing

---

Says Mk 5 L34A1

Yep, I can see that Jim, but it ain't engraved or roll pressed in as I am used to seeing one or two of them. And what is lurking elsewhere....., that we can't read?

S4212


Edit: not mine. UK dealer pic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Promo

S4212


Edit: not mine. UK dealer pic.

---

Thank you for the photo - that is a large step from S4167 (the previous high number noted).
Attachment 123526

Here are the two currently highest known serial numbered commercial Sterling Mk5's serial # 1597 & # S 4212. The (Guns of Dagenham) book estimates 3500 commercially manufactured, but these serial numbers confirm that estimate as being quite low.

1597 + (S) 4212 = 5809 (by adding the two highest serial numbers);

However PL below states that he believed that Mk5 serial numbers may have restarted at S 1001, if this is the case, the known extant serial numbers would indicate that there were at least 4,809 commercial Mk5's manufactured.

In GoD, PL & DH show (in the early 1970's) 50 unit conversion batches of Mk5 SMGs, if that remained true for all production, possible totals would be 4,850 (based on restarting at S 1001).
now we just have to watch for serial numbers "no letter pre-fix" above 1597 and "S" prefix serial numbers below S 1001 and above S 4212.

and the highest known UKicon L34A1 (from the Royal Armouries)
US67A423 (again the stated 50 unit batches - so a minimum of 450 units).
Collections Online | Royal Armouries

Implying a minimum production total of 5,300 L34A1 & Mk5 units.

I'd want to point out that the inscription additionally carries a "SINGLE SHOT" marking atop the designation that you do not find on the next lower number known. The original description to the pictured sample btw reads as:

Quote:

---

Fires from closed bolt, folding stock, semi-auto, raised sight blocks

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Promo

I'd want to point out that the inscription additionally carries a "SINGLE SHOT" marking atop the designation that you do not find on the next lower number known. The original description to the pictured sample btw reads as:

---

It would be very interesting to confirm that it is closed bolt.

added S3893 & S4154
MINT Condition Original Silenced Sterling Mk5 - MJL Militaria
MINT Condition Original Silenced Sterling Mk5 - MJL Militaria
and 1 without a shown serial
MINT Condition Original Silenced Sterling Mk5 - MJL Militaria

I forwarded this closed bolt material to James Ed and he is quite perplexed, saying that they'd prepare any variation if a customer wanted it - and had deep pockets. But the L34 marks (or L2A3 markings) were there to indicate that the gun was identical to the UK military L34 and/or the L2A3.

In this case, the closed bolt gun is definitely NOT the same and nor would many of the parts be interchangeable. It is clearly not a made up 'fake' but certainly not one that the owner knows about or recalls. Shame engineering director David Howroyd isn't here to add his 2c's worth.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I forwarded this closed bolt material to James Ed and he is quite perplexed, saying that they'd prepare any variation if a customer wanted it - and had deep pockets. But the L34 marks (or L2A3 markings) were there to indicate that the gun was identical to the UK military L34 and/or the L2A3.

In this case, the closed bolt gun is definitely NOT the same and nor would many of the parts be interchangeable. It is clearly not a made up 'fake' but certainly not one that the owner knows about or recalls. Shame engineering director David Howroyd isn't here to add his 2c's worth.

---

I would think that it wouldn't be that difficult to convert any Sterling to a closed bolt by simply installing the trigger group and the bolt.

If the US requirement to make it irreversable were ignored, should be extremely easy?

In fact many of the US "Century Arms" "Sterling" Mk6 pattern carbines available a few years ago had L2A3 bolts and Trigger groups converted to closed bolt.
How it works: NEW Sterling Mk4 semi auto kit - YouTube

How about S4156

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Martiy1971

How about S4156

---

not currently in the list, can you offer any info?

Sorry...... had to turn the video off after3 or so minutes. Absolutely dire........... Maybe he should have at least, got someone else to hold the camera

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Sorry...... had to turn the video off after3 or so minutes. Absolutely dire........... Maybe he should have at least, got someone else to hold the camera

---

Yes, I generally turn the volume down and drag the video until something useful is shown.

Sterling L34A1 / Mk.5 Silenced - YouTube

Submachine Gun In Pakistan | MP40 / M3A1 / L34A1 / Welrod | Pt.1 - YouTube

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Sorry...... had to turn the video off after3 or so minutes.

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I watched it...mostly. He was one of the worst speakers or gives the worst weapon lecture I've ever seen. Fail...

In my possession but do not know much about them

Attachment 134084Attachment 134085

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Martiy1971

In my possession but do not know much about them

Attachment 134084Attachment 134085

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What are the selector markings? 34 1 0 or A R S ?
Date of bolt? (If visible - usually
"s72" for example.
Date of Pistol Grip
Does it have scope studs?
Bent cocking handle?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lee Enfield

What are the selector markings? 34 1 0 or A R S ?
Date of bolt? (If visible - usually
"s72" for example.
Date of Pistol Grip
Does it have scope studs?
Bent cocking handle?

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S1634 is as follows
Selector is ARS
Looks like factory non crinkle coating
dont appear to have scope mounts
the bolt has tiny numbers on it and the first is S62
I do not know what a bent cocking handle looks like? the exterior lever on both are curved slightly.
This one is in rougher and could have been a parts kit maybe?
canadian trigger group

S4157

Looks virtually brand new
Crackle finish
Selector is 34 I SAFE
although have not disassembled I cannot see any numbers on bolt
has scope mounts
I have no idea how to date grips
non Canadian trigger group

I know nothing about these guns, but I did inherit these and a few others from a great uncle who passed and apparently his father was a tail gunner in Wellingtons primarily based over North Africa. These were with quite a few WW2 relics. These seem too new to be wartime,

Another is a SA58 Para FN with 11" barrel and factory scope. Looks really cool but definitely newer.

one does.

S2248
Sterling L34A1 Silenced SMG - DWSUK

1430
The L34A1 Sterling Submachine Gun: A Stormtroopers Weapon of Choice! - YouTube

Ohio Ordnance USA
1430 wood handguard, straight cocking handle and no studs -dealer sample Ohio Ordnance US

Helston Gunsmiths has 4 really interesting pieces:

S3315 plastic fixed stock, no studs, wood forend grip
Attachment 139021
Attachment 139022

S4212 Single Shot (previously reported)
Attachment 139023
Attachment 139024

LA 2 Semi-Automatic 9mm Carbine Mk6 - long front tube, corresponding with the semi (non suppressed) [Mk9?] sold by Peter Wilke from OGT in Canada
LA 3 Semi-Automatic 9mm Carbine Mk6 - long front tube, corresponding with the semi (non suppressed) Mk9 sold by Peter Wilke in Canada
Attachment 139025
Attachment 139027
Attachment 139026

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Martiy1971

S1634 is as follows
Selector is ARS
Looks like factory non crinkle coating
dont appear to have scope mounts
the bolt has tiny numbers on it and the first is S62
I do not know what a bent cocking handle looks like? the exterior lever on both are curved slightly.
This one is in rougher and could have been a parts kit maybe?
canadian trigger group

S4157

Looks virtually brand new
Crackle finish
Selector is 34 I SAFE
although have not disassembled I cannot see any numbers on bolt
has scope mounts
I have no idea how to date grips
non Canadian trigger group

I know nothing about these guns, but I did inherit these and a few others from a great uncle who passed and apparently his father was a tail gunner in Wellingtons primarily based over North Africa. These were with quite a few WW2 relics. These seem too new to be wartime,

Another is a SA58 Para FN with 11" barrel and factory scope. Looks really cool but definitely newer.

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Forgot to mention that both are open bolt with integral suppressors.

All mentioned within the TGOD book. Sterling easily adapted current production into whatever the customer wanted. The plastic stock was brought about because at one time the USA didn't want folding butt silenced guns.

The LA prefix serial number is a bit of an enigma to Edmiston.......

B]S3220[/B] Excellent Condition British Mk.5 Silent Sterling – SN 220 MJL Militaria[product-gallery]/8

S4141 for sale in NZ

9mm British Mark 5 L34A1 Sterling Machine Gun Suppressed. - Collector Weapons