Noticed a couple odd things about an M1A1 for sale online.

There is a M1A1 on sale online at gunbroker ($3k with 3 days left) and I noticed something that seems off. I am new to these so I could be all wrong about it.

I read that the cutout section of the stock left side where the cheek pad rests is supposed to have smooth flowing curves in the first production carbines. This one has sharply milled edges in that area same as the reworked stocks have. Am I wrong or is that not correct for a first production paratrooper?

Also noticed that the cheek pad doesn't fit the cutout when the stock is folded. On mine it fits exactly in the right spot.

In another pic it looks like the leather pad is not fitted well to the base metal.

The sling has absolutely no wear at the points you would expect even if lightly used.

I've been looking at details of these for a solid week trying to determine if mine is legit and now I am noticing oddities in many online examples. Has my imagination gotten the better of me?
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ed_edges-1.jpg
Inset for tubular stock was milled, leaving pronounced edges as opposed to smooth curves. (From uscarbinecal30.com)
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...d_edges2-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ed_edges-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ion_area-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ooks_off-1.jpg

My OCD about minor details has taken over. Further examination of the pics reveals a plethora of differences. At least with mine.
First pic:
Orange lines: The curve at the end of the forestock on mine is gradual and does not reach the barrel at 90 degrees. The one for sale has a more distinct round curve reaching the barrel at more than 90. The area at the top on mine is not curved but is mostly straight while on the for sale one is curved all the way around top and bottom.
Green arrow: My carbine barrel band has a faint mark while the for sale one has a distinct modern die or machine mark in the top curve. (same as the one on the cheek plate)
Red arrow: Sling terminator tab on mine is flat all around, other one is rounded and not stamped as flat throughout.
Blue arrow: Snap on mine has a tiny dent where the 2 halves were pressed together. For sale one has a raised dent in 2 places. Also I see some brass showing through and one that unused should not, mine is 73 years old and the finish has not worn away to show brass. (sling does not look 70+ years old nor does the leather on the cheek pad)
Purple arrow: No id stamp on swivel on the for sale item.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...nd_diffs-1.jpg

Second pic:
Red Arrow: Machine mark to secure cheek plate is very distinct and just like the one above on the barrel band. Mine has a mark but it is a simple indent.
Blue arrow: Curve of the folding wire stock starts farther out and is sharper than mine which starts right at the exit from the plate.
Green arrow: Rivets on the for sale one look like they are not brass or have been parkerized. My example clearly shows brass rivets.
Overall the cheek pad plate doesn't seem to fit as neatly as mine does and is not mounted in the correct position to let it rest in the cutout when folded. However the way it was made would not let it be moved back to allow correct fit.
Also the wire stock is not the same color as the cheek pad plate on mine but the for sale one looks like it was all made together same origin and finishing process (oiler too from the look of it).
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ferences-1.jpg

I realize many manufacturers took part in making these and some differences can be explained by that but there is too much oddity here. Looks like this one for sale was rebuilt with new(er) wood and metal stock parts. I could be completely wrong of course and I won't be upset if I am corrected. More knowledge is a good thing in case I ever see another one so feel free to pile on with opinions or pics to prove me wrong.

It all looks right as rain to me.

I am new to the M1A1 stock, but with what you say and the great pic's you have shown I will have to agree with you, look's like a lot is wrong with that gun, good job.

HDSledge, are you able to clarify exactly which pictures in post 1 are your gun and which belong to some-one else which they are trying to sell, please? Is the first picture some-one else's gun which is for sale and the remainder are pictures of your gun?

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Originally Posted by lboos

I am new to the M1A1 stock, but with what you say and the great pic's you have shown I will have to agree with you, look's like a lot is wrong with that gun, good job.

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Thanks lboos. Now that I am also convinced I feel kinda bad for whoever is bidding. Someone did a fair job putting it together but the fine details give it away. I am sure it is still worth a pretty penny since almost everything else looks ok. Now I understand what everyone has been saying about the market for these. You have to be extremely aware of fine details since many more are out there than were originally built I have been told. How much is the price difference between a legit M1A1 paratrooper and a regular M1?

Hey Bill take another look at the details. Here is a pic of a the stock folded. The one pictured above doesn't fit. Can't be original. Below is a pic of the recoil plate cap on the one for sale. No way that was passed by ordinance inspectors. That has to be an aftermarket repro part or the stock is. No way they came off the line together.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ockleftb-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...f_kilter-1.jpg

Flying1Dulk: The top pic in post #1 is a reference pic from uscarbinecal30 showing a milled cutout, the rest are of the for sale gun. In post #2 my gun is on the top in the pics and the for sale gun is on the bottom.

Mine is the inset. Mark is also shown on the reference pic in post #1.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo..._rebuild-1.jpg

Buttplate. Mine on top. The for sale one below has finer casting and a fatter rounded edge. Most evident at far right in the pic.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ded_edge-1.jpg

I would stay away from this gun, to many things wrong.:runaway::runaway::runaway:

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Originally Posted by lboos

I would stay away from this gun, to many things wrong.:runaway::runaway::runaway:

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Everytime I look I see a problem: Notice the star symbol on the buttplate? Different on the for sale gun. That one is only an asterisk and the crossed lines are oriented at 12, 2, 4, 6, 8, and 10 o'clock instead of properly at 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, and 11 o'clock. According to uscarbine30cal.com all of these were cast by the same foundry.

AND: The jump case (not pictured in the thread) looks like current production repro. too. The one snap has brass showing through as if paint flaked off. If it is unused (and it looks it) there would be no brassed area from wear or use.
edit: not sure about this item.
Current bid over $3,000. Auction ending time 7/31/2016 9:00 PM
Bid snipers always wait until the last few seconds. We will see what happens Sunday night. Hopefully genuine collectors will notice what I did and stay away but I feel for the poor bidder who thinks he is getting the real deal based on the description and previous sale slip shown for $6500.

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Originally Posted by HDSledge

Everytime I look I see a problem

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Then you're good to go, you have yourself convinced...

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Then you're good to go, you have yourself convinced...

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Ouch. Yes Jim I am convinced the for sale gun is being misrepresented. I was pretty sure soon after I started looking close at the auction pics. But the primary reason I went the extra mile(s) with all the detail, dual pics, pointers, etc. is I am grateful for all the input from members and I don't want to see anyone in here possibly overlook the details I noticed. Some of you old farts may have bad eyesight. (said the old fart) I would hate to have not spoken out and a member here wind up with it. Heck it took me more than a few hours to share everything I spotted and my wife's yard long honey do list ain't getting any shorter. (I think she added 30 items while I was in here making nice pictures for you guys.)

Since I guess I didn't convince you and you have a wealth of experience, I would love to hear your take on where I may be wrong. If I ever see another one on the table in front of me what you have to say about it will be valuable info.

M1A1 buttplates were cast. The number on the right states it's position during casting. I've seen and owned thinner, and fatter edged examples. That wouldn't be a deciding factor to me. The number, font, star, would. I am surprised there are no buttplate marks on the front wood. I might look for sanding. But I've not seen an original stock without at least some mark there. Mine have thin and thicker places on the same buttplate. And scars on the front wood.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...plate002-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...plate004-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...08/M1A1s-1.jpg

I think I've been bitten by the vintage firearm bug. I collect vintage safety razors too so I guess I've jumped down another rabbit hole.

Interesting pics. Tell me about the 1911's and holsters, did they come with the other gear? What is the grip/trigger assy. in the middle?

<0

The center is a OSS "Liberator". It's .45 and made by "Guide lamp" of GM I believe...bit of an oddity...I think they're making them again though.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

The center is a OSS "Liberator". It's .45 and made by "Guide lamp" of GM I believe...bit of an oddity...I think they're making them again though.

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When I first looked I thought I was looking at a frame with the slide off. Zoomed in I see it is the whole gun. Very cool item. Have you ever shot it?

HDSledge, checkout the "fit-up" details on this M1A1 (clone) auction on Gun Broker. Hope your new "shooter" stock turns out better. - Bob

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/574233332

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Originally Posted by USGI

HDSledge, checkout the "fit-up" details on this M1A1 (clone) auction on Gun Broker. Hope your new "shooter" stock turns out better. - Bob

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/574233332

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Wow me too. The hand guard is way off and that wide barrel band is not going to work at all. If it fits that poorly it will go right back in the box to be shipped home.

JimF4M1s,
What a wonderful collection you have, I esp. like your Liberator, I'm always on the lookout for one, only seen one at a gun show in year's, can't remember the price, but it was way over my head.
You really have some great part's of History, Thank's for letting us see it.

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Originally Posted by lboos

JimF4M1s,
What a wonderful collection you have, I esp. like your Liberator, I'm always on the lookout for one, only seen one at a gun show in year's, can't remember the price, but it was way over my head.
You really have some great part's of History, Thank's for letting us see it.

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Agreed, thanks. Very interesting history on that and very rare, one can fetch 5k they say. A single shot made of 20? stamped parts. Have to use an included wooden dowel to get the brass out after firing and range was a few yards tops. Amazingly impractical but great historical item.

FP-45 Liberator Model 1 2 | Vintage Ordnance Company, LLC - Makers of FP-45 Liberator Pistol

while the original Liberator had a smooth barrel the new ones have a rifled barrel to comply with ATF rules.

That wood stock may be Inland but it didn't start out as a M1A1 . I'm sure that looks like a nice Sunday project in the wood shop !:)

This goes away from the ops thread, but the Liberator is a cool piece of history. STORY, a friend and I bought three. One night we decided to shoot one of them out in his backyard. I shot ten rounds and said I'd had enough. Stove piped, recoil, wasn't much fun. My buddy, WW2 fighter pilot had his turn. Round 18 most of the spot welds broke and the pistol shattered in his hand. He wasn't hurt. Original cost to the government was around $2. We paid $800 each for them. Sold those parts in a baggie for $400. Expensive 18 round play session. I still see an original once in a while running in the $2,500 - $3,500.

It wasn't designed/made for too many rounds. The ten in the grip was most likely the safe factor. Shoot the enemy get his Luger.

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Originally Posted by JimF4M1s

It wasn't designed/made for too many rounds. The ten in the grip was most likely the safe factor. Shoot the enemy get his Luger.

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That's about right, from what I understood too.

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Originally Posted by rcycles45

That wood stock may be Inland but it didn't start out as a M1A1 . I'm sure that looks like a nice Sunday project in the wood shop !:)

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It sold for $4,125.00. Wow.

A few of them battled it out in "overtime." Now the buyer will probably research M1A1's and find out what he really has. The description didn't match what I saw in the pictures. :ugh: - Bob

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Originally Posted by USGI

A few of them battled it out in "overtime." Now the buyer will probably research M1A1's and find out what he really has. The description didn't match what I saw in the pictures. :ugh: - Bob

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For that kind of money you would assume they would be inclined to spend adequate time researching before bidding. Easy to find the definitive information and find it fast with a simple search. A lot of detail about these though and I can see how some important info could get skimmed over. The glowing description about authenticity helped along by the "hook" of the old receipt for six thou lulled someone into not doing their own research. They probably thought they were getting a great deal.

I didn't buy it but am sorta peeved at the seller anyway. Could be they didn't know either. If not they must be unhappy with the final selling price themselves considering the old sales slip number.

Unfortunately, the market is being controlled to some level or the other by the greedy, the corrupt and like in this instance the ignorant. We've all made mistakes large in small, but greed. corruption and ignorance are probably some of the or are the most significant reasons we all pay what we do at this particular moment in the current carbine market.

I saw this in a display case at a museum yesterday which may be of interest. It is behind glass or perspex so the picture isn't as good as it could be.

I don't really know much about this particular model of weapon but I'm sure forum members will be able to tell us more about this example.

here is one now for sale on fleabay that has been verified by an expert (ROTFLMAO)

M1 Carbine Paratrooper Stock Believed Original | eBay

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

I saw this in a display case at a museum yesterday which may be of interest. It is behind glass or perspex so the picture isn't as good as it could be.

I don't really know much about this particular model of weapon but I'm sure forum members will be able to tell us more about this example.

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First thing I noticed: the rivets.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...eal_not2-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...100_6845-1.jpg

Leather is uncut? The aftermarket ones I've seen have relief cuts in the corners.

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Originally Posted by shadycon

Leather is uncut? The aftermarket ones I've seen have relief cuts in the corners.

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Like this Inland repro?
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...p_of_pad-1.jpg

Not in the corners but in the lower stock radius .

Those cuts that you mention are there to make it easier to put the leather on. You don't need to take the time to mold the leather if you make those cuts. The cheap repros all have them.

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Originally Posted by jimb16

Those cuts that you mention are there to make it easier to put the leather on. You don't need to take the time to mold the leather if you make those cuts. The cheap repros all have them.

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Would you mind posting a pic so I can see what you are referring to? Thanks.

I think they're talking about the stock from the eBay link in Post #30. - Bob