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I have this P17 bayonet without the normal grooved grips which may be because either the grips were replaced with 1907 grips at some time or some P17 bayonets had plain grips. Has any-one else seen this before on a P17 bayonet or perhaps even owns a similar example. The bayonet came to me without a scabbard and I was only able to obtain a top mount of the correct type. I "grafted" this mount to a 1907 scabbard.
Here are 2 more close up pictures of the grips.
The grooves were supposed to show the bayonet was not a 1907 bayonet. I wouldn't think it was made that way but probably replaced at some point
Does the proof marks on the grips looks like they are from Belgium?
--fjruple
I'm not sure about the markings on the grips; I think that they are inspector's markings but don't know who's.
Crown T6 E, I think thats the Enfield toolroom stamp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
Agreed, they are EFD stamps and they are replacements cobbled up to fit the bayonet. Better than nothing...
The only 13/17 I have seen with smooth grips was an Indian conversion of an 07 with the cross guard of the later model added, I have also a "07" that was made by replacing the cross guard from a 13/17 with an 07 one giving grooved grips on an 07
Is any-one able to post a couple of pictures of P17 bayonet grips that they know to be original and ideally on a bayonet that hasn't ever left the States, please?
Did not the P-14 bayonet have smooth grips and the P-17 the grooved?
I have a couple of P14 bayonets both with grooved grips but that doesn't mean all P14 grips were grooved. I did think that "grooving" the grips of P14 and 17 bayonets was a British thing that was done to bayonets that came to the U.K. side of the pond but this looks less likely to be the case than I had thought.
No, the P14 and M1917 bayonets are the same. It was done to avoid the confusion that this thread has right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.e moose
goto Bayonet Collection Presentation there are plentyQuote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
---------- Post added at 08:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:36 AM ----------
the early trials p14's did not have grip grooves but the issue ones did to prevent problems,
---------- Post added at 08:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:39 AM ----------
early trials versions for the new rifle didn't have grooves but by the time they were issued they did to prevent problemnsQuote:
Originally Posted by mr.e moose
Absolutely correct...agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by old-smithy
I wouldnt think so. They were the same shape/profile Rifles. Only the internal calibre was different. so a P.17 Bayonet SHOULD fit both types?Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.e moose
Probably just being a bit pedantic here but...should it not be a P1913 bayonet and M1917 bayonet rather than P1914/P14 and P1917/P17. Like I said a bit pedantic but may as well have it correct?
M1917 and Pattern14 bayonets are the same bayonet. This one isn't a Pattern13/test/experimental/provisional. It's a M1917 with a set of 1907 grip scales on it... It's nothing special.
I was once told that there is a very slight difference in muzzle ring diameter between the P14 and P17 bayonets which means either both bayonets will fit the P14 rifle but just 1 bayonet will fit the P17 rifle or it's the other way round. I only have a P14 rifle and not a P17 but I do have both types of bayonet although the P17, it would appear, has incorrect grips. I am not therefore able to fully test this theory but perhaps others are able to do so and report back on their findings, please. The amount of difference in muzzle ring diameter was suggested to me to be a tiny amount but just enough to make a difference between fitting and not.
Nope...all metal objects have tolerance differences. The bayonet is one pattern.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
I concur. Model 1917 and Pattern 1914 are identical bayonets
Yep identical, but as far as I know the British never used the name Pattern 1914, it was always the Pattern 1913? Even though the rifle changed to the P14, the bayonet, as far as I know anyhow, retained the P1913 name and wasn't renamed to the P1914 like the rifle?Quote:
Originally Posted by porterkids
OK then, the Pattern 13 and 14 are the same too, except for the originals with a hooked quillion. And I've never heard the Pattern 14 bayonet referred to as the Pattern 13... That was this one... --->
sword bayonet for Enfield 276 experimental rifle Pattern 1913 276 experimental (WEA 482.1)
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=42702
Does any-one actually have a P14 and a P17 rifle together with P14 and P17 bayonets that they are able to try fitting together in every possible combination, please, before we totally dismiss the possibility that there may be a combination that doesn't fit together. The person who told me was quite emphatic about it and he had no reason to make it up or lie to me.
I have a Remington P14 bayonet and it fits my Model of 1917 Eddystone OK. Also fits on my 12 gauge riot gun also.
--fjruple
Yes the original Pattern 1913 bayonet is as you say, but when the the the P1913 rifle was changed to .303 and renamed the P14 the bayonet wasn't changed officially to the Pattern 1914 bayonet it retained its original Pattern 1913 name. It's often called the P14 bayonet (as can been seen in this thread and possibly elsewhere) but this is just a collectors/unofficial term and whilst it was in production for the UK it was always a P1913. At the end of the day I don't suppose it really matters but if you call it a P13 or a P14 but it 'should' be a P13 bayonet which was stuck on the end of a P14 rifle and when the US took over production of the P14 rifle for themselves as the .30 M1917 the bayonet became the M1917 as you already know.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
I've had them all and they interchange, and he didn't lie he was just wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
Again, I concur. The bayonets are identical except for the markings. They are completely interchangeable.
The bayonet for the P14 rifle was designated Pattern 1913 and so stamped on the ricasso.
Has any actually checked, recently, to make absolutely sure that a P17 bayonet really does fit on a P14 rifle before we all get too carried away saying that the P14 and P17 rifles and bayonets are all fully interchangeable? I have a P17 bayonet as we all know because it started this thread and I also have a P14 rifle but, so far, I haven't checked to see if the 2 fit together.
They are completely interchangeable. In fact after the British contract was complete leftover Pattern 13 bayonets had the British markings barred out and were used in the US contracts. The US contract rifles are Model 1917 rifles and bayonets are Model 1917 bayonets.
I can confirm that the Brit P13 bts and the US M17 bts are 100% interchangeable on the P14 And M17 rifles.
I once had an individual tell me his bayonet didn't fit his rifle. I forget what rifle it was, not one of these. The bayonet lug or mortise slot was hammered, the ring was bent...once corrected and returned to spec they fit as designed. That can happen to ANY rifle/bayonet made.
Two P1913 bayonets re-stamped for US service.
Attachment 75060Attachment 75061Attachment 75062
2.
Attachment 75063Attachment 75064
This one is in British P1907/1913 type scabbard with oval locket. I doubt either scabbard is original to these bayonets.
Same bayonet, different markings, different scabbards. Basically the same rifle except the caliber change and volley sights on some p-14's. A lot of the parts interchange.
sure glad the thread finally got to the reality that the p13 rifle became a p14 but the bayonet remained a p13 , until both became m17s and yes all fully interchangeable , both had the grooved scales save for possibly some early vickers p13s , this one is wearing p07 scales ,
That's where I was the first day...
But are you sure?
When I have tried fitting my P17 bayonet to my P14 rifle I will report back on the results. This bayonet was made from scratch as a P17 bayonet. If it fits my P14 rifle I will I will agree that the P14 & 17 bayonets and rifles are fully interchangeable. If, however, the P17 bayonet doesn't fit the P14 rifle and this is not due to any sort of damage/distortion etc I will be most interested to hear all the explanations from every-one who has insisted that they are fully interchangeable. I will not be seeing if the bayonet fits the rifle this evening as I have other things to do but at a convenient time for me I will do so.
I agree with Jim, the bayonets for the Rifle P14 and the US M1917 Rifle are the same, unless there is damage to the bayonet's muzzle ring. If it fits one than it will fit both.
We will find out when I try fitting the bayonet to the rifle.
We've already found out, Doubting Thomas.
the only one i might be skeptical of [perha[s porter kids knows = or one of the others i know to be knowledgable here] is if the muzzle ring of the original P13 for the P13 rifle could be different
thats because i dont have one - yet?
i know wishful thinking like the HAC i want .........
All that will compare is your rifle and bayonet. If yours is gimped the rest of the world will be wrong...? And we can't see either to determine what's what. Anyway, we've told you so have fun with YOURS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
Strangely enough, there was a plug gauge for the bayonet crosspiece holes. We had one for the No1 bayonet that was identical to the No3 bayonet and another for the No5 bayonets. Never saw one for the L1A1 but I would imagine that by then, it'd dawned on 'scales branch'* that nobody ever used the gauges! We all had an L1 or No5 flash eliminator/muzzle end of a scrap Sterling or old No4 barrel muzzle bolted onto our benches. Same as testing the rifles. The out-inspector usually had a relevant selection of bayonets that he used to test the serviceability of the flash eliminators. 'Big' Robbie had a nice collection of bayonets with cut-off blades and white painted handles used as his bench test pieces
Off at a tangent time. So if you're not interested, look away now........
* Scales Branch. The section '....somewhere' that decided the scales of equipment that were issued to or available to us in the technical side of the Army. Usually very approachable, down to earth and would always listen to a good idea. When you dealt with them, paperwork was at an absolute minimum and a quick note, suggestion or sketch was all that was required
I have now tried fitting my P17 bayonet to my P14 rifle and this bayonet was originally made as a P17 bayonet as it would have been pointless trying a P14 bayonet re-labeled as a P17 bayonet for the purposes of this study. As far as I'm aware I am the first person on this thread to actually try fitting a P17 bayonet, originally made as such, on a P14 rifle. I can confirm that it does fit without problems. When people tell me things like like the P14 &17 bayonets not being fully interchangeable I do not automatically assume that I am right and they are wrong. As in this example, I test the theory out in practice if at all possible which I have now done.
I fitted the bayonets to the rifles a long time ago. Didn't think it was needed to specifically state that considering the overwhelming consensus that the bayonets are the same other than markings which is also further indicated in all written matters on the subject. The 1917 was a wartime expedient to get rifles into US soldiers hands as fast and as efficiently as possible. Nothing but the caliber was changed along with eliminating volley sights which the US Army did not use.
We told you we'd done it...Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
The P14 bayonets (1913 bayonets) which were relabelled for the P17 rifle, in my books, are still P14 bayonets and have not somehow magically morphed into the same thing as the P17 bayonets which were made as such from scratch. No-one has stated that they have tried a P17 bayonet made as such from scratch on a P14 rifle until I did in post 45, as far as I am aware. Please correct me if I have missed a post in which some-one clearly states that they have done so.
All bayonets were made from scratch on the same machinery for the same rifles. After each was made, it was stamped with the appropriate marks. Acceptance marks for the British on all P-14 bayonets, US on all 1917 bayonets which again are identical except for the markings. P-14 bayonets which had been marked for British acceptance but not yet shipped when the US entered the war were also stamped with US marks. Again, exact same bayonet other than the marks. Whether anyone specifically stated they had tried them or not it was clearly implied by several, myself included. There also was no need, there is no mystery, they are the same bayonet.
I actually own two 1918 bayonets made by Remington who being used to stamping the year on British bayonets, 1913, 1914 and so on started with 1917 on the US bayonets and switched to 1918 upon the new year until being informed that the US wanted the model, 1917, not the year. These also fit on both the 1917 and P-14 rifles.
I repeat, no-one has clearly stated that they have tried a P17 bayonet, made as such, on a P14 rifle until I did, as far as I'm aware.
OK, you get a gold star for being the first one to try a Model 1917 (not P17) bayonet on a P14 rifle. Congratulations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
Maybe you were being a bit pedantic F-10. The interchangeability of the two bayonets has been common knowledge since they were introduced in......., well......, 1913 and '17!
Maybe because there is no such thing as a P17 bayonet? It is correctly called a M1917 bayonet, many of which are P13 bayonets manufactured in surplus of British needs and accepted by the US with no alterations other than US acceptance/inspection markings. The bayonets made for the British but accepted by the US still had the "1913" stamp on one side of the ricasso and the British acceptance markings on the opposite ricasso were cancelled and a "US" added below their location. Once the US contractors started making M1917 bayonets, the only change made was in the markings; "1917 replaced the British "1913" and where their acceptance/inspection marks had been were stamped our Ordnance Bomb and Eagle over "US".Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
In one of the old wartine Armourers training notes that I have here (not mine I hasten to add......) on the pages that go on to detail interchangeable parts between the M'17 rifle?bayonet and the 3 versions of the No3 rifle and No3 bayonet, it mentions that you will encounter UK and US made No3 bayonets in service. I think that they really mean UK issue and US issue - both of which, plus the grips, screws, springs and catch are interchangeable
I wish they'd lock this thread...
Thank-you Peter for your last post; that is exactly the type of information I wish to hear.