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Afternoon all,
After seeing the pics of Geoff's great XL42, I started pondering the out of service date for the No4T.
Considering the L42 came into service in dribs and drabs in the early 1970's, when was the final No4T withdrawn from UK active service?
I would imagine it must have served on in a few TA units until the mid 1970's at least ??
John, I would guess like you say mid 70's but reading some old posts on the L42, Peter mentioned something regarding the last serving Enfield then they had to change the wording etc, due to drill rifles and No8's, even then he mentions a SMLE No1 Mk111 still being on the "Books" ......
I'm waiting for Peter to chime in on this one, as he is probably in the best position to know. However, I remember chatting to the late Pete Bloom in my garage one evening many years ago (whilst effecting some urgent Lee Enfield first aid for him!), & he stated that during his first tour in Northern Ireland as a RM sniper, in 1971 I think he said, he was equipped with a 4T, though he had a L42A1 for subsequent tours. The Marines would hardly have been at the bottom of the pecking order for new kit, so I would have thought that the mid-seventies would sound about right, once one takes into account TA units & so on.
They were all pretty much withdrawn from UK service in the mid 1970's.nPeter may have an exact date when he returns.
The withdrawal of No4T's was all done on a rotating basis due to the severe shortage of them in use and Ordnance. Even those in 'service' as 'loan stores - to aid the civil powers' to UK Police forces were withdrawn at about the same time*. So as those in Ordnance were converted a couple of hundred at a time, issued out and the unit would then return the old No4T's - and so on. So the mid to late 70's would be about right.
* this gave rise to a demand for the new Enforcer as Police Forces wanted the new L42. But there weren't sufficient stocks. And the condition of the 4T's they returned was best described as '.....dire' and incomplete
Which begs the question, Its amazing there are so many No4Ts sitting in collections that are in excellent order.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Those in collections have probably been there, polished and cared for, for absolutely ages. Those in Police Armouries were stored there untouched and uncared for in the 50's through into the 70's when there was no real armed crime to speak of that would warrant their use. Those with the Army were in semi-regular use so were worn. Many of which were culled at Enfield.
Incidentally, the Police at the time also had hundreds of Inglis Brownings and .38" Enfield anf Webley revolvers. I collected a couple of hundred rifles and pistols from some Southern police forces and while they'd been 'cleaned' for the purposes of handing in, the Station handyman at Nxxxxx told me that he'd struggled to find the key to the locker they were in - which itself was stored in a garage (albeit a lock-up) but next to the power washer and sprayed them over with WD40. As for anything like resembling a CES or chest or........., well, anything, forget it! They were pretty-well unaccounted for, believe me! All taken to an Ordnance Facility at Longmoor initially.
There were so few suitable that the traveling examiner told me several relaxations in the FTR standard were introduced for the L42 including the height of sear stop as I recall plus a few other minor bits. Happy days. But I did manage to get myself a spare telescope/bracket/tin out of it.........
I suppose when you take into account wartime production of 24,000 odd rifles, factor in wartime loss WW2/ Korea plus all the other post empire Brush fire wars including WFU and gifted rifles etc, taking ordnance down to what shall we say, half the production number?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Then factor in the reduced requirements of the post National Service professional Armed Forces and you still have (theoretically) more No4T's than you require, so I would guess that many of the good examples in collections today probably got sold off to trade in the 1958 - 1962 time frame along with hundreds of thousands of other Enfields.
Wish I could remember it fully but I recall many years back watching an episode of either the "Sweeney" or "The Professionals" which featured Police Marksmen on a roof during a Bank robbery and they were armed with 4(T)s
I'm surprised that so many brand new rifles were released to commercial sale if the war stock rifles were so "well used".Quote:
Originally Posted by mrclark303
Having said that, we (the canadian gov't and military anyway) have made disposing of stored arms a habit ( Inglis Hi Powers + No4 rifles as just 2 examples) resulting in a need to canabalize new guns in stores, and purchase beaten debris from the open market to suplement systems still in use...
My 90L long branch was inspected by V.Ball in 1961 or 1962.
I believe the only firing was at conversion and after MOD released it.
That raises the question of British commercial proofing...are they actually ALL proof fired??
I'm really not sure how my "mummy wrapped" 1955 Fax mk2 was proof fired?? Without being unwrapped (except at the muzzle and serial number on receiver side).
Proof fired before wrapping for storage. Broken wrap to check serial and apply import stamp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Enfield
---------- Post added at 06:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:09 PM ----------
Proofed fired before wrapping for storage. Wrap broken to check serial an d to apply import stampQuote:
Originally Posted by Lee Enfield
I have heard of a UK mummy wrapped rifle slit open JUST enough to lift and open the bolt and muzzle to be proof fired. Then sealed up again. Alas, not cleaned properly - or at all.. Several years later, new owner, opened wrapping with a badly corroded barrel. So make sure you clean it yourself and THEN re-wrap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bindi2
Sorry I didn't make it clear enough, "civilian commercial" proof firing, it could not have been commercial proof fired as the bolt is wrapped in, and the original packaging and Fazakerly tags are intact.
The bolt is sealed by the original long term storage wrapping.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
It's an interesting thing Civilian proof law, I think I am right in say that it is a legal requirement for all firearms sold in the UK to be within proof (British or CIP), I guess if a rifle is surplussed and sold for export however, its not required.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Enfield
Its amazing though (and I am sure the RFD's and collectors on here will agree) the amount of Milsurp firearms that are sold out of proof in the UK, even worse, the RFD's who haven't got the first clue about proof and the law and think military proof/ownership markings are good enough!
The lack of knowledge on occasion is simply breathtaking!
You surprise me with that statement! It's not as though UK Military firearms aren't proofed - they ARE, so it's hardly breathtaking! So where is the real problem. It's just a technicality you're talking about. The law requires that they are proofed at a UK proof house and the UK military proof houses for small arms don't exist any more.
Maybe you can tell me when the last prosecution for a non civilian proofed but full military proofed weapon went to court? Nope......., nor can I...... nor can the law books. Because it wouldn't even get to court! My specialist subject here....... Ask me about the clown who told us to reproof all of our Vickers guns
Yeah there are lots of experts around who know the law chapter and verse and love to quote it. Disappointingly for them this intricate level of expertise doesn't really extend to the authorities who have more important things to think of - like simply trying to do the basics of gun control with hardly any resources.
What I mean by breathtaking Peter is this is the law, it's very straight forward on this subject, if you sell a firearm in the UK it has to be in current civilian proof, British or CIP, that's it, absolutely straightforward, the thing that amazes me are the RFD's that don't know that!Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Is it a stupid old fashioned law, yes, it is, with at best marginal relevance in this day and age, but it's still a law.
Hypothetical situation ... you are at the range with your newly acquired No4 (that's not been legally proofed), you pull the trigger and it lets go, seriously injuring you and the people around you, now, do you think your shooting insurance would pay out ?
My guess would be not a snowballs chance in hell ...
That's my take on it anyway.
But it's ALREADY been proofed......... And legally proofed too, to the legal requirement of the UK Military. I mean, how many times do you need to proof something. It is simply over stressing it. Can you imagine a mountaineer stressing his ropes twice? Is the UK Military proof seriously less that of, say, the Bulgarian proof house that's now accepted by default - but isn't even CIP approved? Come on! And when was the last time you saw an ex Army rifle, your No4 for example, break? Nope....., me neither.
Evening Peter,
I agree with you, the whole proofhouse thing is no more than a pointless firearm overdressing money generating cartel, unfortunately military proof just isn't regarded as legally "within proof" from the point if view of RFD or private sales.
Insurance wise, all they need is a reason not to pay out, any potential litigiousness situation will do involving the rifle in question.
Cheers John.
If the U.K. military proof houses for small arms don't exist anymore where does the U.K. military get it's small arms proofed then. Presumably the SA80s are now proofed in Germany and are the remainder of the country's small arms proofed there as well?
Commercial UK proof I believe, I would hope such contracts include delivery of proofed firearms, putting the onus on the contractor.
The usual story of one hand not knowing what the other is doing. Those in "disposals" need to find things to dispose of to justify their own employment. Considering the rifles were selling for £25 in the chest complete in the late 60s you'd wonder why they didn't just quietly buy them back, but then that would not provide the employment opportunities that bureaucracies love to foster.
In the case of the sealed in wrap No 4 MK II rifles sold out I Ireland in 1996, a cut was made over the action body to verify the serial number, and then recorded by the officer in charge on a paper list, to ensure the packing list on each box of 5 matched what was actually in the crate. Each crate had 5 wrapped Enfield made No 9 bayonets and scabbards with no serial number on the bayonet. this was done by serving Irish reservists soldiers.
The rifles were sent directly to Canada and arrived there in the winter of 1996/early 1997. They did not get commercial proof in the UK.
The import marks were applied by century on the muzzle around 2002 when this final batch was imported into the US of A.