UK No4T withdrawal date?

[Peter Laidler]

Those in collections have probably been there, polished and cared for, for absolutely ages. Those in Police Armouries were stored there untouched and uncared for in the 50's through into the 70's when there was no real armed crime to speak of that would warrant their use. Those with the Army were in semi-regular use so were worn. Many of which were culled at Enfield.

Incidentally, the Police at the time also had hundreds of Inglis Brownings and .38" Enfield anf Webley revolvers. I collected a couple of hundred rifles and pistols from some Southern police forces and while they'd been 'cleaned' for the purposes of handing in, the Station handyman at Nxxxxx told me that he'd struggled to find the key to the locker they were in - which itself was stored in a garage (albeit a lock-up) but next to the power washer and sprayed them over with WD40. As for anything like resembling a CES or chest or........., well, anything, forget it! They were pretty-well unaccounted for, believe me! All taken to an Ordnance Facility at Longmoor initially.

There were so few suitable that the traveling examiner told me several relaxations in the FTR standard were introduced for the L42 including the height of sear stop as I recall plus a few other minor bits. Happy days. But I did manage to get myself a spare telescope/bracket/tin out of it.........

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[mrclark303]

Those in collections have probably been there, polished and cared for, for absolutely ages

I suppose when you take into account wartime production of 24,000 odd rifles, factor in wartime loss WW2/ Korea plus all the other post empire Brush fire wars including WFU and gifted rifles etc, taking ordnance down to what shall we say, half the production number?

Then factor in the reduced requirements of the post National Service professional Armed Forces and you still have (theoretically) more No4T's than you require, so I would guess that many of the good examples in collections today probably got sold off to trade in the 1958 - 1962 time frame along with hundreds of thousands of other Enfields.

[Lee Enfield]

I suppose when you take into account wartime production of 24,000 odd rifles, factor in wartime loss WW2/ Korea plus all the other post empire Brush fire wars including WFU and gifted rifles etc, taking ordnance down to what shall we say, half the production number?

Then factor in the reduced requirements of the post National Service professional Armed Forces and you still have (theoretically) more No4T's than you require, so I would guess that many of the good examples in collections today probably got sold off to trade in the 1958 - 1962 time frame along with hundreds of thousands of other Enfields.

I'm surprised that so many brand new rifles were released to commercial sale if the war stock rifles were so "well used".

Having said that, we (the canadian gov't and military anyway) have made disposing of stored arms a habit ( Inglis Hi Powers + No4 rifles as just 2 examples) resulting in a need to canabalize new guns in stores, and purchase beaten debris from the open market to suplement systems still in use...

My 90L long branch was inspected by V.Ball in 1961 or 1962.

I believe the only firing was at conversion and after MOD released it.

That raises the question of British commercial proofing...are they actually ALL proof fired??

I'm really not sure how my "mummy wrapped" 1955 Fax mk2 was proof fired?? Without being unwrapped (except at the muzzle and serial number on receiver side).

[Bindi2]

I'm surprised that so many brand new rifles were released to commercial sale if the war stock rifles were so "well used".

Having said that, we (the canadian gov't and military anyway) have made disposing of stored arms a habit ( Inglis Hi Powers + No4 rifles as just 2 examples) resulting in a need to canabalize new guns in stores, and purchase beaten debris from the open market to suplement systems still in use...

My 90L long branch was inspected by V.Ball in 1961 or 1962.

I believe the only firing was at conversion and after MOD released it.

That raises the question of British commercial proofing...are they actually ALL proof fired??

I'm really not sure how my "mummy wrapped" 1955 Fax mk2 was proof fired?? Without being unwrapped (except at the muzzle and serial number on receiver side).

Proof fired before wrapping for storage. Broken wrap to check serial and apply import stamp.

---------- Post added at 06:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:09 PM ----------

I'm surprised that so many brand new rifles were released to commercial sale if the war stock rifles were so "well used".

Having said that, we (the canadian gov't and military anyway) have made disposing of stored arms a habit ( Inglis Hi Powers + No4 rifles as just 2 examples) resulting in a need to canabalize new guns in stores, and purchase beaten debris from the open market to suplement systems still in use...

My 90L long branch was inspected by V.Ball in 1961 or 1962.

I believe the only firing was at conversion and after MOD released it.

That raises the question of British commercial proofing...are they actually ALL proof fired??

I'm really not sure how my "mummy wrapped" 1955 Fax mk2 was proof fired?? Without being unwrapped (except at the muzzle and serial number on receiver side).

Proofed fired before wrapping for storage. Wrap broken to check serial an d to apply import stamp

[Lee Enfield]

Proof fired before wrapping for storage. Broken wrap to check serial and apply import stamp.

---------- Post added at 06:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:09 PM ----------



Proofed fired before wrapping for storage. Wrap broken to check serial an d to apply import stamp

Sorry I didn't make it clear enough, "civilian commercial" proof firing, it could not have been commercial proof fired as the bolt is wrapped in, and the original packaging and Fazakerly tags are intact.

I have heard of a UK mummy wrapped rifle slit open JUST enough to lift and open the bolt and muzzle to be proof fired. Then sealed up again. Alas, not cleaned properly - or at all.. Several years later, new owner, opened wrapping with a badly corroded barrel. So make sure you clean it yourself and THEN re-wrap.

The bolt is sealed by the original long term storage wrapping.

[mrclark303]

Sorry civilian commercial proof firing, it could not have been as the bolt is wrapped in, and the original packaging and Fazakerly tags are intact.

It's an interesting thing Civilian proof law, I think I am right in say that it is a legal requirement for all firearms sold in the UK to be within proof (British or CIP), I guess if a rifle is surplussed and sold for export however, its not required.

Its amazing though (and I am sure the RFD's and collectors on here will agree) the amount of Milsurp firearms that are sold out of proof in the UK, even worse, the RFD's who haven't got the first clue about proof and the law and think military proof/ownership markings are good enough!

The lack of knowledge on occasion is simply breathtaking!