lee enfield mk4 forestock help needed please

hi guys
just joined the site today after finding it on google.

i have bought various parts on a lee enfield mk4 dated 1945 but unfortunately the fore-stock was not part of the deal so my question to you guys is does anyone know of a site which has the fore-stock specs on it so i can make my own, i am pretty good with woodwork so i`m not phased by the task. buying one is out of the question now since i spent what i had on the parts purchased and besides that i had heart surgery last November so this will be a great little project through the coming summer .

thanks
al

Welcome to the site .. :wave:

I don't know of any drawings, but I'm not sure this is worth custom tooling it, given the large availability of wood sets on places like eBay, as an example... :confused:

Just look at the top left of the site under "Search on Ebay" and type enfield wood sets and you'll see what I mean... :thup:

Regards,
Doug

thanks badger
£90 is the cheapest i can find off those that have them on ebay and at the moment that is way to much for me, i will be off work for a good few months now and that`s the reason i was looking at making my own for now.

thanks
al

even the basic measurements (accurate as possible) would get me started, the length / width / depth of the forestock would be a great help.

thanks
al

The internal measurements are going to be a case of reverse engineering I think. You need hardware to fit, if it's going to be correct then there's more reverse engineering for you. Then there's the given restrictions of the distance between the buttsocket and the foresight base for length. You have pictures to compare with...closeups here...

thanks jim
i can`t see the link you posted
regards
al

I didn't post any links...this forum of Lee Enfield Knowledge has countless threads showing internal pics, close ups and details. I'm wondering if you look at them, study them, you may gain some insight into the work awaiting you...

This forum... https://www.milsurps.com/forumdisplay.php?f=72

ok thanks, sorry for the misunderstanding.

thanks
al

No sweat, I wish I had a line drawing to send...this could be a huge task for you, I don't know what your skills are. We've see fine hand work examples here before though...

well i will no doubt be around for a good while and will definitely be asking for advice along the way so you will have the opportunity to give your views.

regards
al

The firsat question MUST be '.......what access do you have to woodworking machinery such as routers etc etc. Without that, don't even consider starting. That's not just some smart-arse giving you a glib answer, it's asked based on my knowledge and experience.

In my opinion, I'd get a damaged one and start with that

i have access to a router and a fair bit of wood to practice on, dont forget though that this is at present a project to keep me occupied till i start earning again which is going to be at least 18 months away, whatever i try and make a mess of there will be no damage done to the rifle so to speak but then again i might do a good job of it as well lol, regardless i have nothing to lose having a go at it and learning something along the way. the only thing holding me back is measurements.

at some point i will but the real thing but i need to be working again for that.

thanks
al

Have a look at "wood goes to war" in the screening room it may give you some ideas for jigs and templates.... No CNC machines simple cutters... It's helped me on a few projects.

I reckon find some one with a No.4 ask them very nicely if they can remove the bottom fore wood for you to measure in their presence of course get all the data you can.
Go out and buy some cheap as dirt pine and build a couple of trial fore woods that way errors you make will not impact on the Beech or Walnut of whatever hard wood you are going to use. "Measure twice cut once."
There will be plenty of WTF moments for you and there are critical areas of the stock that have to be exactly spot on, but I hope you get well and do not get yourself stressed out over it there are some very learned & kind people here that will help you if you know some one with a stock patterner then your miles ahead.

Here is some pics of my Master stock makers Ken Davis hand made stock he did for himself I am not sure but I think the wood was pear tree.

You could ask the Royal Armouries Museum, Leeds if they have the original engineering drawings for the woodwork and could you have a copy, please. I would suggest stating that it would just be for your personal use and not for any commercial venture. They most likely will not be able to help but it's worth a try.

The TROUBLE here is this............ I'd give you a bloody fore-end for the cost of the postage and a beer but since you want an 18month or so project, it defeats the object somewhat I feel. I suspect that there are several others here that might feel the same

Agree entirely Pete. I've been debating whether or not to post offering avin a free fore end (just cost of postage), but got the impression that he'd almost prefer to make one himself. If he'd like to pm me & let me know whether he has a Mk1 or Mk2 rifle, & preferred wood type, I'll see what I can come up with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

Here is some pics of my Master stock makers Ken Davis hand made stock

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This was exactly the stock I was referring to earlier bu had no idea where to find the pics or who'd originally posted them. Pear tree, we went in circles trying to figure out the wood two years back...

Yes BAR I only remembered it tonight about what some people can achieve and it just suddenly hit me as I to had pondered the wood Ken told me he made it out of.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

I to had pondered the wood Ken told me he made it out of.

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I'd shown a carpenter and he was unable to ID the wood, suggested it might be something "Aussie" as you have things there we don't have. Like Platypus...and Brisbane bitter(XXX).

evening chaps
thanks for all your comments and help, i will have a look at the wood goes to war video tomorrow as well as following up some of the other advice given me.

i have sent roger an email after his kind offer.

i will have a good look round the site tomorrow, first thing is to get a good sleep so i can get my brain in gear:p

thanks guys

evening chaps
thanks for all your comments and help, i will have a look at the wood goes to war video tomorrow as well as following up some of the other advice given me.

i have sent roger an email after his kind offer.

i will have a good look round the site tomorrow, first thing is to get a good sleep so i can get my brain in gear:p

thanks guys

If you do decide to go ahead and make your own new fore-end it would be interesting to see some pictures of your progress and to see how you decide to tackle the job, please.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

Agree entirely Pete. I've been debating whether or not to post offering avin a free fore end (just cost of postage), but got the impression that he'd almost prefer to make one himself. If he'd like to pm me & let me know whether he has a Mk1 or Mk2 rifle, & preferred wood type, I'll see what I can come up with.

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I was thinking the same thing as Peter and Rodger, I have a spare Mk1 forend that he would be most welcome to also, it's not in great shape, but it would restore well with a little effort.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

If you do decide to go ahead and make your own new fore-end it would be interesting to see some pictures of your progress and to see how you decide to tackle the job, please.

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Agreed F10, I take my hat off to those starting such a project, it's well beyond my humble woodwork skills.

My brother in law is a violin maker and the blend of precision woodworking skills involved are fascinating and hugely impressive, I think making a No4 forend to spec will be a very difficult task indeed...

Perhaps he could use the forend as offered by a couple as a pattern...that would be cake and eating it too...? Hands on example and measurements to reverse engineer.

Sounds like a good idea, it will be an easier task as you say Jim to have control piece to take measurements from.

Just let me know is if you want the forend Avin.

There you go, THREE fore-ends offered in the space of a weekend.............

Avin has pm'ed me & once he has taken possession of the rifle he will let me know if it's a Mk1 or Mk2 trigger configuration. I'll then send him something that'll do. Precise fitting won't be an issue as I gather it is deactivated.

Well done Roger:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

it is deactivated.

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Sort of anti climactic...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

Agreed F10, I take my hat off to those starting such a project, it's well beyond my humble woodwork skills.

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I find nowadays that a lot of men seem to lack the confidence to even have a go at practical tasks such as woodworking and simple metalworking and I do try to give encouragement to "have a go". The first attempt may not be perfect but if you don't try, you don't learn. The brilliant engineer Brunel didn't get everything right first time and I'm sure that he was involved in some embarrassing projects that he would rather forget. I am no more clever or better than anyone else but I'm never reluctant to try my hands at making something which I haven't done before. When something doesn't turnout as well as I would have hoped I put it down to experience and learn from it.

Today we are lucky in that we have the internet and how to do almost anything can be found out from it. For example, I needed to know how to splice rope together in order to make some new rope handles for a Bren chest, a while ago, and this was something which I had no idea how to do. I looked online, found the information, printed it out and I had several attempts at it. After 3 or 4 attempts I managed to splice the rope together, solely by looking online.

The spliced rope handles for the Bren chests were done by prisoners. Those that came to Elliotts of Newbury (Chests marked EoN) were done at Winchester Prison. Another useless bit of info..........

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

The spliced rope handles for the Bren chests were done by prisoners. Those that came to Elliotts of Newbury (Chests marked EoN) were done at Winchester Prison. Another useless bit of info..........

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Not at all useless Peter, it's precisely this sort of detail that gets lost with time, many thanks for sharing and please keep doing so!

You don't seem to hear about prisoners in U.K. jails doing work such sowing mail bags or as Peter has just mentioned splicing rope handles. Do prisoners still do work in U.K. jails or has someone thought up a reason why they shouldn't?

They used to repair mailbags, now that the Post Office uses plastic mailbags there is no point. They used to make kitbags, one I've got here is marked HMP BAR (Barlinnie). They do have opportunities to earn small amounts but the unions don't like it, see it as slave labour.

hi all
can i start by thanking roger payne, peter laidler, and mrclark for you very kind offers and helpful advice, as you will have read roger has offered a forestock thank you so much.
i hope to pick the rifle up tomorrow all being well, my intention was to go today but a 30 minute hospital appointment stretched out to 5 hours what with being sent to different depts.
i have decided that i will still attempt to copy the forestock from roger, reason being it will be something to do over the summer while using the original forestock to start to build the rifle,i will document and photograph the task as i go along, hopefully it will be of help to others, i know it`s only a replica but to own a war 2 rifle means a lot to me, i already have a mosin nagent rifle along with a couple of original iron crosses as well as a few other german medals found by metal detecting.

it`s only the financial situation at the moment till i can work again that is pushing me towards making what i can for now, as time goes by i would replace anything i make with original enfield fittings, but thats for the future.

i have emailed badger to ask if i am allowed to offer something in return for all the help and advice you guys are throwing my way, i will keep my fingers crossed.

thank you all, i really appreciate your help.

kind regards
al

A thread of where you've started and where you progress to would be great, you can update it whenever you have something...

will do jim, i have a few ideas`s as to how to go about it already and i must admit i am looking forward to making one. will let you all know when i am off and running with it.

regards
al

I would suggest that you try and make the inner parts of the fore end fit as original. I realise that this rifle is deactivated, and it would be easier to just make it look correct outside. But if you have the time and the skill's necessary; it would be a worthwhile project.
Could be useful if you ever decide to rebuild a live fire rifle.
Looking forward to seeing the progress; please post photos.

i agree, it would be all to easy to make it look right from the outside but if i am going to have a go at this then i want it looking right from all angles, i love a challenge and having an audience throwing in advice along the way makes even more of a challenge to get as close as possible to the original.

lets hope for a decent summer!

If I was going to make the fore-end from scratch I would produce/cut/shape the internal shape and form that the metalwork sits in first and leave the outside as a rectangular block of wood to be shaped last. This may seem a blatantly obvious statement to make to some but perhaps less obvious to others.

Chaps......., chaps........ lets get real here. As much as we'd all like Alvin to succeed, believe me, with no previous stock making, armouring or gunmaking experience, he ain't making one that fits all the criteria!

it`s going to be fun tho!, lets see how it works out:D

Good luck avin, the beauty of working with wood for me is it keeps my fire going....:lol:

But if it does turn out exceptional then I will be the first to send up an early SMLE fore-end for you to copy and I'll supply the walnut blank. (I will want the original back though)


Just a thought but on the Ross Forum or was it the restorers forum ? there was a guy who made a new stock.....

ADDEd INFO https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=49754

i asked badger earlier today if i could put a set of plans up for you guys, he now has them and if he approves them they will be on site for you guys to have some fun with! so what are the plans i hear you ask.

they are a full set of a replica sterling smg, if any of you guys want a little project then you can enjoy yourselves making this replica. it`s all metal and will end up weighing the same as the original.

it`s just a little thank you for all the help i have had off you guys and i know it`s not everyone`s cup of tea but some of you might enjoy it.

have fun
al

avin, how much general woodworking experience do you have? From reading your posts you seem to come across to me to have at least a basic knowledge and some experience of general carpentry?

The very best of luck Avin, it's certainly quite the undertaking and I don't mind saying way beyond me ... Reworking and refinishing/repairing wood and metalwork yes, but the black arts of making from scratch elude me!

We all wish you the very best and we will watch progress with great interest.

Cheers John.

finally at last i have my hands on it...... so now its time for you guys to tell me whats missing and whats needed to make it a believable replica please. i admit its a bit of a mess but for £20 i thought it is a bit of a bargain, a piece of history. the barrel has been cut but luckily i have an old stick welder in the shed so getting it together again will not be a problem.

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[SIZE=1]---------- Post added at 05:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:26 PM ----------[/SIZE

You might want to review your parts request Avin - you have some No4 parts (woodwork, foresight protector etc.) but the barrelled action is not of a No4 but of a No5 'Jungle Carbine.' If you want to complete the No5 you will need a flash eliminator, a rear sight, & a full set of woodwork & associated furniture. It is possible to modify a No4 fore end to fit & function on a No5, (& I am still happy to supply you with one), but you'll now have a number of other problems to overcome. It's all do-able - it's a case of finding the parts.......

more

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---------- Post added at 05:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:48 PM ----------

hi roger
nothing is ever easy is it! what would be the easiest and cheapest way to go about this, i have the time to do the alterations and the easiest way would be best, for what model no would the parts be most accessible?.
the action has number 4 stamped on it, has someone tried to hide the model?

thanks
al

I don't know what others would advise Avin, but as you most definitely have a Fazakerly made No5 barrelled action, that is what I would assemble it up as. (The '5' on the receiver side wall looks to have been changed to a '4'). I'll let others chip in, but off-hand, you'll need a flash eliminator, full set of wood & full set of furniture (bands, rubber recoil pad, butt metalwork etc.). A good idea might be to look at some photo's of complete No5 rifles, so you can see what is missing. Unfortunately the wood that came with the barrelled action is of no use to you as it is for a No4.

hi rodger
oh dear!!!! could i adapt the forestock you have offered to fit? obviously the butt is another problem which i will have to work on.
yes i looked at the no5 jungle carbine and i must admit i now realize the size of task i am facing, to say i am downhearted would be an understatement but never mind, i will see what can be done.

thanks
al

Yes, it can be adapted to fit; I have modified quite a few over the years. And the offer still stands, but I'm afraid I don't have any spare No5 wood as such. However, if you persist & you're not in a hurry, all of the parts will turn up eventually, & the job is certainly doable.

To be truly honest and if I were you I'd be thanking my lucky stars. The No4 butt is perfectly adaptable to No5 spec, as is the fore-end. In Malaya where we had zillions of the bloody things, modified/adapted fore-ends and butts were all that Ordnance sent out to us. Top handguard a sinch to adapt or modify too. As for the butt plate and pad and flash eliminator, you'll soon find them if you look hard enough. Correct backsights...., ten a penny! As are the rest of the bits

thanks both roger and peter, you have made me feel better, i think this will be a game of patience both in adapting and finding the parts to fit, i have been finding as much information as possible on the no5 as well as looking on ebay for which there is very little. i will continue to search anyway, my son is away to search as well so that`s two of covering the net.
i think i will have a few more questions if you don`t mind as this moves on.

thank you all.

roger i will send you a pm regarding the forestock.

thanks
al

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigduke6

there was a guy who made a new stock

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Difference is he has experience and a pantograph.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by avin

the action has number 4 stamped on it, has someone tried to hide the model?

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Yes they have, for whatever reason.

afternoon all
so as it stands i am going to adapt the mk4 butt, top rail and the forestock which roger is kindly sorting out for me, the action is a mk5 jungle carbine, which trigger will fit the mk5 and the will bands from the from a mk4 still fit after i have altered the forestock?, its fine looking about but knowing exactly what i am looking at to fit a mk5 is another story! i cant seem to see a flash eliminator anywhere other than the usa unless you guys can point me to other sites that i do not know of.

thanks
al

Top rail = the HANDGUARD EASILY modified to suit. Butt, once again, easily modified to accept the new butt plate plus wood patch the existing sling loop recess. Fore-end, fairly simple. Triggers are identical. Upper band, use a No4 band and sling loop BUT when you recess the fore-end and handguard to take the No4 band, do it carefully to as depth to suit the slightly different diameter of the No4 band (unless you have a slightly different No5 band. Technically speaking a No5 flash eliminator is not allowed in the UK as a spare part but in your case.......... anyway

Froim now on, your project is transforming a No5 RIFLE. It's not being pedantic but a a Mk5 is not a No5

ok thanks peter

Quote:

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Originally Posted by avin

cant seem to see a flash eliminator anywhere

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They're scarce in Canada too...rear sights can be had though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Technically speaking a No5 flash eliminator is not allowed in the UK as a spare part but in your case.......... anyway

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It's probably not a good idea to buy yourself a Flash eliminator in the States, avin, and get it posted to yourself in Scotland because the package may get opened on entering the U.K..

It's quite legal for a shotgun......... It all depends on what it is purchased to fit onto

Just to add re the Flash Eliminator Avin, it's one of those rather silly firearms laws I'm afraid...

Flash Eliminator's are technically speaking Section 1 controlled parts.

I don't think too many people are aware of or take any notice about this rather stupid rule to be honest...

Militaria dealers sell them on occasion, unaware of their legal status.

A workaround for this is to get an RFD to supply and permanently fit one when you have the rest completed.

Once it's pinned/welded in place it's no longer controlled.

Or tell him that you want it for a .410 shotgun...........

another way possibly as it`s just a deactivated rifle is to see if my mate can get one done at his engineering works then have it welded on, ok it will not be original but then again the whole rifle is a bit of a mismatch is it not, i would still rather have a piece of history than not. does anyone have any specs on the flash? length, height etc, if i have something close regarding size to give to him then i would end up with a part that is not to far off the original.

thanks
al

what is the best way to clean the action? it would be nice to see what other marks are hidden under the muck and grime.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by avin

another way possibly as it`s just a deactivated rifle is to see if my mate can get one done at his engineering works then have it welded on, ok it will not be original but then again the whole rifle is a bit of a mismatch is it not, i would still rather have a piece of history than not. does anyone have any specs on the flash? length, height etc, if i have something close regarding size to give to him then i would end up with a part that is not to far off the original.

thanks
al

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Avin,

The FE is quite an involved piece as it encompasses the sight block too, probably easier just to get hold of an original example

Quote:

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Originally Posted by avin

what is the best way to clean the action? it would be nice to see what other marks are hidden under the muck and grime.

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WD40 and an old tooth brush will fetch all the crap off Avin...

Peter, where does the law stand with some of the older deactivations where there is a Flash Hider? Have they always been permanently fixed to the barrel on deacs?

If they are on an old spec they are fine F10, they only started fixing them in position post October 1995 and the regs aren't retrospectively applied.

I would be very reluctant to state the law anywhere because, as the lawyers themselves will tell, you that you can be NEARLY right, but alas, hopelessly wrong.

I've never understood what the problem is with flash hiders, just a metal funnel stuck on the end of the barrel.

well i have someone who will make a flash hider for me possibly this week, do any of you guys have measurements of one before i take a rough guess?

thanks
al

Nobody ever have had a problem with them - ecvept that an item that is deployed to diminish the noise OR FLASH is prohibited. Unless it is for an air rifle or a shot gun. Problem solved!

Is it not just a fore sight for a No5 incorporating a bayonet boss.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by avin

i have someone who will make a flash hider for me possibly this week

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As in a sand cast or what? Numrich made some years ago and I think that's what they did. They were less than stellar. A CNC could do it if you had a drawing...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

I've never understood what the problem is with flash hiders, just a metal funnel stuck on the end of the barrel.

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Just like many areas of UK Firearms law F10, the flash eliminator regs make little sense and appear to be largely ignored by most anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

regs make little sense

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Because they're not written by people that understand firearms...

afternoon all
so i have an idea as to how i am going to copy a forestock, i will run this idea passed you guys and please give your thoughts but don`t forget this is a project that will give me something to do through a long summer ( thats if we get one up here, i think i should have stayed in geordieland )

so my intention is to first give the wood some protection then take a fibreglass mold of the outer area of the forestock, doing this exactly will allow me to shape the wood then place it into the mould i have made till it fits perfectly, i will then take a fiberglass mold of the inner forstocke getting all the detail and as i get the inner wood cut and shaped i will have the mold to drop into the new forestock and when it fits perfectly i will know i have the correct depth, width and shape, it will then just be a matter of light sanding to smooth off.

ok it sounds simples and there will be a lot of work in it but then again i will have the time, it`s not going to happen overnight so anyone who is interested in what i am going to attempt please keep an eye on this thread and if any of you guys have anything to chip in as i go along then please let me know, all ideas are welcome, i will add photos from the start to finish and a description as to how it goes.

cheers
al