Group Comment -Which No 4 Should I lean towards?

G'Day All,

Feeling like opening a can of worms here, just for a bit of fun.

Currently have 3 off No 4's being offered to me for sale:

• No 4 Mk 1* Long Branch 1942
• No 4 Mk 1* Savage 1943
• No 4 Mk 1/2 Fazakerley 1943/56 FTR

All in similar condition, all around similar price, 1/2 being a little dearer.

Which one should I lean toward, and why do you feel that way inclined?

Just for fun, just a conversation starter, don't take it too seriously! :madsmile:

Thanks for your thoughts and comments in advance. Will be interesting to hear your passions!

I like Savages for their wood and finish. Also most parts are stamped S, so easier for me to tell the rifle is original.

Long Branch would be second for me, assuming it's not an FTR.

Generally it comes down to the rifle though. I really like grooved hand guards, forends with low wood for where the magazine cutoff would have been if they kept doing it, early cocking pieces, and the milled adjustable rear sights.

Buy all three see which one is the pick of the litter for condition and grouping then if you wish flog the others chances are you will keep all three they are that addictive..............................ENFIELDITIS !

I would say :

bore condition first, including throat

Price second.

Long term WWII original samples will hold their value more than FTR rifles. If in the US of A the Savage has a cross over appeal to US WWII collectors, if original they will pay a lot. FTR rifles, not so much.

For fun I say the savage. Always preferred them over the rest.

The 1/2 ... less of them loose in the world??

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

Buy all three see which one is the pick of the litter for condition and grouping then if you wish flog the others chances are you will keep all three they are that addictive..............................ENFIELDITIS !

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Ha ha, from a Sandgroper that's a brave suggestion of believing the Constabulary will be that accommodating. But I like your thinking... Thank you.

---------- Post added at 02:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:35 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by Frederick303

I would say :

bore condition first, including throat

Price second.

Long term WWII original samples will hold their value more than FTR rifles. If in the US of A the Savage has a cross over appeal to US WWII collectors, if original they will pay a lot. FTR rifles, not so much.

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Very helpful thoughts, there Frederick303, thank you. I appreciate the knowledge.

Depends on what your going to use them for if on an open license then you may have a bit of explaining to do I have 2 on open a No.4 & MkIII and that's it, the other 4 are on club support and with that you can wiggle around a bit say the Savage & Faz or the L/B may have 2 different battle sights just make up a shoot like a 3-600m flip sight say it is for that type of sight, the Singer say its for that type of shoot over varying ranges. When I brought my 1944 BSA M47C T I put down WWII sniper rifles only match leaving wiggle room if I can afford to get a HT for WWI sniper rifle and a post WWII sniper rifle as I would dearly love an L42 even though it is in a different caliber but that is just dreaming.

There are allot of things to consider with them Frederick is on the right track but you really have to dig into them preferably getting down to stripping is right down and fully inspected. This may sound OTT but with the price of them here in Aus and spares in short supply you need to be granular.
The worst thing I did was shove a bore scope down my 303's as in the day barrel care was not on the priority as long as it grouped their service life may have been measured in days with attrition at the front they were making plenty more believe me, as PL says if it is grouping well but the bore looks cruddy then why change something that is working.
The draws need to be looked at as my T's were flogged out and buying from the east I had to go on face value and what I was told by the owner, an all matching would be nice but chances are they may not all match but better if they do, I have seen POS No.4's that you say holy cr*p what a dog but shoot they do and very well I have seen prima donna ones that just group no better than a handle full of wheat.
I like Long B's for some reason followed by Maltby the only reason I have Savages is because they were at a good price and local plus I knew the rifles as well as having shot them, both have helped me come 2nd for 2 consecutive years and 1st last year in state run as issued shoots last years was a 3 range multiple position shoot.

Take your time if you have some one that is experienced in them it may help to seek their input by looking at them first hand etc if you have a gunsmith friend who can assist all the better.

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

Depends on what your going to use them for if on an open license then you may have a bit of explaining to do I have 2 on open a No.4 & MkIII and that's it, the other 4 are on club support and with that you can wiggle around a bit say the Savage & Faz or the L/B may have 2 different battle sights just make up a shoot like a 3-600m flip sight say it is for that type of sight, the Singer say its for that type of shoot over varying ranges. When I brought my 1944 BSA M47C T I put down WWII sniper rifles only match leaving wiggle room if I can afford to get a HT for WWI sniper rifle and a post WWII sniper rifle as I would dearly love an L42 even though it is in a different caliber but that is just dreaming.

There are allot of things to consider with them Frederick is on the right track but you really have to dig into them preferably getting down to stripping is right down and fully inspected. This may sound OTT but with the price of them here in Aus and spares in short supply you need to be granular.
The worst thing I did was shove a bore scope down my 303's as in the day barrel care was not on the priority as long as it grouped their service life may have been measured in days with attrition at the front they were making plenty more believe me, as PL says if it is grouping well but the bore looks cruddy then why change something that is working.
The draws need to be looked at as my T's were flogged out and buying from the east I had to go on face value and what I was told by the owner, an all matching would be nice but chances are they may not all match but better if they do, I have seen POS No.4's that you say holy cr*p what a dog but shoot they do and very well I have seen prima donna ones that just group no better than a handle full of wheat.
I like Long B's for some reason followed by Maltby the only reason I have Savages is because they were at a good price and local plus I knew the rifles as well as having shot them, both have helped me come 2nd for 2 consecutive years and 1st last year in state run as issued shoots last years was a 3 range multiple position shoot.

Take your time if you have some one that is experienced in them it may help to seek their input by looking at them first hand etc if you have a gunsmith friend who can assist all the better.

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Cinders,

Excellent comment, thank you. You've gone above an beyond.

You raise a very good point here in Oz, re: the small and expensive market. We pay way too much and I'm really envious of the Yanks and their large and very competitive market. Also, the approach of many collectors on here, they are sticklers for value in their sales, which is a good thing. We seem to be bound by 'take it or leave it, there's little choice otherwise...' attitude.

The difficulty in serious inspection is distance. I've handled one of the rifles and feel comfortable knowing a little about its feel, look and maintenance. I used the borescope and got a good feel for the quality of the barrel and it's life (much better than my No 1 Mk III*s) and pulled out the head space gauges to see how it fared, but am only going to be able to handle one other. The final one is too far away and the owner seems knowledgeable enough, but they have a vested interest in selling the rifle, so 'salesmanship' tends to cloud critical judgement from years on the range with the rifle.

I'm probably competent enough to be able to manage most initial mechanical inspections without a gunsmith. Not suggesting I know all they do, not implying I have all the details ready for a methodical inspection. But certainly feel confident to go looking for the main wear points and assess the overall condition, maintenance and originality of the rifle.

As for the holes in paper down range, well, therein lies the largest and most uncontrollable variable - the firer! I won't be putting my hand up for the next Queens Shoot.

Its interesting how many are on the market at the moment because they've sat in the safe for '... many years...' untouched. I suppose the real rifles are not as attractive as plastic and high powered optics? (OK, that probably wasn't called for and those whom raised to the bait, stand down! Just levity, folks...)

Your comments on assessing from the East coast are thought provoking, as I've bought two from the West. How do you go about narrowing down the variability in what the seller is trying to have you accept, without being able to hold it? Photos are certainly the essential component, so how do you get past the usual "...Oh, it's god a good shiny barrel, mate..." when you know full well that it's the dark areas of the grooves that you want to know about, not the immediate bearing surfaces of the lands which should be polished if working properly? Few punters are equipped with a borescope, so they're not in a position to send you down bore piccies...

All good information, and I think your final comment is one that sits well with me. I'll take my time and talk to each of the vendors patiently and see how much they want me to buy their rifles. I doubt any of the three would be a dud.

The only 2 guns I have brought ex-east have been nightmares my Parker Hale 1200 Safari Grade 22/250 was as you say "shoot - by jove it can shoot bloody accurate rifle in good nik...." so I brought it for $750 got it here and the group at 100m was a dinner plate as I had previously owned a PH 1200 Safari Grade 22/250 the accuracy was not there that one was stolen along with a Lithgow 1945 MkIII.
So I had a re-crown $100 same dinner plate bit the bullet new barrel waited 6 months for a 1-12TR Bartlein 28" tube (Frank from Bartlein is a really good chap helped me heaps) so that was fitted for an all up $1,000 (see where this is headed?) now I have found out the accuiracy is still not under 1.0MOA/100 why the old gunsmith put a long throat on the chamber and when I sat the rounds at 2.350" COAL they were jumping @200-thou!
Now the pills are barely in the case with a 20 thou jump making me wonder about their concentricity after they have hit the feed ramp as it still wont group and I have all the bells and whistles for setting jumps, trimming, turning, uniforming, shoulder measuring & bumping and so on till the cows come home??
So now it is a case chop 1/4" off the chamber end re-reaming with a standard throat and go from there my wife has named it "The Black Hole Rifle" as money disappears very fast with it.

My T is also ex east from a friend (sadly the deal cost a friendship) who did not miss me in price but same same this had a 20moa at a 100 with my hand loads pulled the gun down after discovered by accident it was rocking on the trigger guard screw front even though it was rock tight, when I got the bottom fore stock off the draws were smashed to pieces literally so Ken Davis the Master Stock-maker fixed it with a method he devised for such an issue it will never again need the draws fixing. So that was an extra $250 ontop of the all up $6,900.00 the rifle cost with a very solid aluminium transport case.
Purists may cringe at the idea but from my side who cares because I will be long gone before they ever need doing again

Nice assortment of weaponry you have can see your dilemma..........

Bore condition is paramount; you can't just pick a up a spare barrel at the corner disposals store any more. Aftermarket ones are, of course "new", but not exactly cheap.

The BIG problem with the LB and the Savage, long term, is the potential "hazards" associated with the bolt-head "release" cutout in the guide rib along the RHS of the body. If the Savage has a release catch and no cut-out it is a bit of a rare bird. Only the initial few hundred thousand were made that way before the "simplified" system went into production. It will simply be marked "Mk1", (no star).

Too much vertical "play" in the bolt / body fit in a Mk1* will see the bolt-head "floating" up and down and potentially chipping the corners of this cut-out, (if there is not already some damage there).Yes, I know, millions of users have had no issues with this, especially in the first sixty years of service, etc., etc.

The Mk1/2 SHOULD have its trigger "hung" on a bracket fitted to the body, as opposed to swinging off the trigger-guard in traditional Lee Enfield fashion. This functionally duplicated the arrangement on the British manufactured Mk2 and these retrofits started being done as FTRs in 1949. This later "hung-trigger" system is MUCH easier to true and "trim", (and test for safety / sear-return / engagement, release etc.), because all of the "bits" are on the same piece of rifle.

Furthermore, a Mk1/2 should also have the spring-loaded bolt release catch and not the simple “cut-out” on the body, as it should be an "upgrade" from a Mk1 rifle. It may well have a two-groove barrel, which is NOT a problem, unless it is shabby internally, but this caveat also applies to any likely barrel, be it with two, four, five or six grooves, left or right-hand twist.

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

So now it is a case chop 1/4" off the chamber end re-reaming with a standard throat and go from there my wife has named it "The Black Hole Rifle" as money disappears very fast with it.

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Cinders,

Your situaiton is one of great concern. If I was buying a range rifle (my other past-time, to 'learn how to shoot...) from afar I think it'd be a different kettle of fish.

The small mercy of Service rifles is their tolerances are... tolerant. Having said that, I'm now about to replace bolt heads in No 1 Mk III*s and another No 4... as I know how far out the head space is. I guess the old addage of 'ignorance is bliss' sometimes covers up a multitude of sins?

Will consider your points very carefully when talking with these fellows next.

You need to shoot all three if at all possible, check the bores, bedding and make sure the draws aren't damaged.

If we are going purely by makers choice, then I would go for the Savage.

No particular reason, I just think they are an interesting part of the Lee story and the larger WW2 story with their Lend Lease connection.

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Originally Posted by 22SqnRAE

Group Comment -Which No 4 Should I lean towards?

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I see by your signature line that you already have a No4 Mk1, Mk1* and Mk2. You absolutely must get the No4 Mk1/2 and then start looking for a 1/3.

I just love my Long Branch.......

Range test all three for accuracy AS THEY ARE and then take the most accurate one. You can correct everything else easily. And remember this when viewing barrels. It's a point that the experts don't tell you. Some absolutely superb looking barrels shoot like crap whereas some sewer pipes shoot like a dream. And some of those super doooper shining barrels are only like this because they've been scrubbed/polished to death.

ALWAYS accuracy test first. Just my opinion of course

I would say the Faz 1/2.
There are a few reasons!
1: I have one and it shoots really well.
2: You have the benefit of a rifle that has the Mk2 type trigger assy and FTR in 56 means it's not seen any real action since, so probably less wear than the other two. (needs inspection of course)
3: The original build date is WWII era so still interesting.
4: I believe they made around 350.000 No4Mk1/2's so not rare, but still rarer than the Mk1

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Originally Posted by Steve H. in N.Y.

I see by your signature line that you already have a No4 Mk1, Mk1* and Mk2. You absolutely must get the No4 Mk1/2 and then start looking for a 1/3.

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+1. Perhaps it's because there's so many of them kicking around here but I find the Savage and LB Mk I*'s to be nothing special and you already have one! What your collection is lacking is a "Long Lee". They are something special with lots of interesting history and fit and finish above and beyond a typical SMLE or No. 4. Also perfectly usable. Final selling point- over here, due to the big interest in WW1/2, you can get an excellent MLE I or I* for the same price as a good, collectable SMLE or No. 4.

Ridolpho

I agree with post #4 with the extra proviso, outside condition as well as bore.

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

If we are going purely by makers choice, then I would go for the Savage.

No particular reason, I just think they are an interesting part of the Lee story and the larger WW2 story with their Lend Lease connection.

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Excellent, mrclark33, that's what I was hoping to hear at some stage. Pure preference! I think this is shows the essential passion that drives collectors to greater awareness.

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Originally Posted by Ridolpho

+1. Perhaps it's because there's so many of them kicking around here but I find the Savage and LB Mk I*'s to be nothing special and you already have one! What your collection is lacking is a "Long Lee". They are something special with lots of interesting history and fit and finish above and beyond a typical SMLE or No. 4. Also perfectly usable. Final selling point- over here, due to the big interest in WW1/2, you can get an excellent MLE I or I* for the same price as a good, collectable SMLE or No. 4.

Ridolpho

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Ridolpho,

Thank you for noticing! I do have a Long Tom, just have (embarrassingly overlooked in the listing. I'll sort that out. Well done, that man.

---------- Post added at 10:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:46 AM ----------

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Originally Posted by Steve H. in N.Y.

I see by your signature line that you already have a No4 Mk1, Mk1* and Mk2. You absolutely must get the No4 Mk1/2 and then start looking for a 1/3.

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Thanks Steve, a good point.

"...None shall pass..." And then it gets quite messy from there...

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Peter, some very good points. I have a couple of No 1 MK III* barrels that look like the proverbial sewer trunk main, but they are consistent and reliable shooters. Buggers to clean, though.

I get tired of the superficial comments from those with a very little knowledge, whom are only too keen to share it with you. "...Mate, its got a great shiny barrel..." Yes, very helpful, but what about the dark parts called grooves where the real information is that were looking for on wear? Still, it's a challenge to continue to educate others, for their benefit at least, through patient explanation of the important considerations as opposed to the obvious ones.

The ability to get these rifles to a range and snug in to my shoulder may be a bit of a challenge, as they're well scattered, and in our market not too many are keen to hand over a rifle until the deal is completed. Our laws have created some very nervous and suspicious behaviour where once decency and integrity used to allow sound judgement to be made. I'll take the advice and see how it can be best used, it is good, thank you.

---------- Post added at 11:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:59 AM ----------

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Originally Posted by 30Three

I would say the Faz 1/2.
There are a few reasons!
1: I have one and it shoots really well.
2: You have the benefit of a rifle that has the Mk2 type trigger assy and FTR in 56 means it's not seen any real action since, so probably less wear than the other two. (needs inspection of course)
3: The original build date is WWII era so still interesting.
4: I believe they made around 350.000 No4Mk1/2's so not rare, but still rarer than the Mk1

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3Three, an excellent viewpoint, thanks for that. You have a good argument.

If the conditions are equal i say go the longbranch.

I came across some pics of the same rifle 22sqnrae is looking at, while tire kicking. To my untrained eye there was one possible minor issue but it is in the first half of the 2L series. For me that makes it interesting enough to lift it above the others.

If all three are equal and your point is investment and you lived in America the Savage. However I believe OP is in Australia.

Me personally I would go with the one with the most history if condition and bores are equal. Which may very well turnout to be the Faz.

If the Long Branch was a MkI there wouldn't be a decision if they were all the same price. Which would be unlikely.

If you have none of those types OP and they are all good to go try to make a package deal for all 3.

[QUOTE=

If you have none of those types OP and they are all good to go try to make a package deal for all 3.[/QUOTE]

capt14k, an interesting challenge, as I have 3 vendors, all separated by around 200 km each!

If you want a shooter ,go for the 1/2, if you are more of a collector, I would go for the Longbranch[which probably came from NZ]. The Savage rifles in this part of the world are quite often rather second hand!!. At the end of the day you really need to see all of them, and pick the one you like the best!!!. Stuart.

Dear Fellow Enfielditis Sufferers,

Thanks to all of you whom responded and offers your thoughts on my question of which of the No 4's on offer to buy. Thought I'd finish off this conversation with the results.

I looked hard at two in my hands (and via borescope) and could only see photos of another. This time, the North Americans came second to a former BSA, finally Fazakerley Mk 1/2.

Thinking about the comments regarding better shooting, retained heritage and that I was pretty interested in securing a BSA specimen, I chose the Mk 1/2. I spent a little while cleaning and re-oiling the timber and doing a thorough clean of the steel under the furniture. To be fair, this rifle is quite new, done little work since its FTR and was victim to some long-term harsh storage. She's looking a lot happier now.

Attachment 83552Attachment 83553Attachment 83554Attachment 83555Attachment 83556Attachment 83557

Is that the famous "Ishy screw" on the bottom fore wood 22Sqn the head could do with some very judicious file work and cold blue to make it look smicko nice looking rig of course a range report is next well done.

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

Is that the famous "Ishy screw" on the bottom fore wood 22Sqn the head could do with some very judicious file work and cold blue to make it look smicko nice looking rig of course a range report is next well done.

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Cinders,

A good point and yes, there is still reconditioning to go. The range report should have been prepared, but circumstances saw me missing out on the Service Rifle prac on Saturday, straight to TR shoot.

Am thinking that I'll read up on the Canadian pams on preparing a No 4 for competitions, and do the minimum bedding as recommended by the good book. Might even read Roger Wadham's Complete Book on Lee Enfield Accurizing to pick up some ideas. Slowly, slowly on this one. I'm going to use this one as my main comp rifle, it's a pearler.

You could safely remove that screw and replace it with a wood plug in the hole. If the fore-end isn't cracked, it really serves no useful purpose. And in any case, if the fore-end IS cracked a hardwood/oak taper-to-suit wood peg will secure it as well as anything. There is a note of how to do it all properly somewhere.

When it comes to setting up rifles for competition, I'm a bit old fashioned or of the what my mum used to call 'from the bleedin obvious school'. The sniper rifles were pretty competitive as their targets were prone to shoot back. So what about using the No4T method of fore-end fitting.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

You could safely remove that screw and replace it with a wood plug in the hole. If the fore-end isn't cracked, it really serves no useful purpose. And in any case, if the fore-end IS cracked a hardwood/oak taper-to-suit wood peg will secure it as well as anything. There is a note of how to do it all properly somewhere.

When it comes to setting up rifles for competition, I'm a bit old fashioned or of the what my mum used to call 'from the bleedin obvious school'. The sniper rifles were pretty competitive as their targets were prone to shoot back. So what about using the No4T method of fore-end fitting.

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Peter, thanks for the advice, I believe I will take up that option when I find the appropriate stain to match some Tasmanian Oak, which we have easy access to in Aus. I believe I'm lucky enough to have scored a fairly new beech set of furniture, as I've compared it against the birch of the brand new "Irish" (... yes, I know...) No 4 Mk 2's I have recently acquired. The beech is magnificent in the quarter sawn components in its 'fish scale' texture.

I'll not be hasty in making any decisions, and will study carefully. I may have to ask some questions of those of you with more than a modicum of experience and knowledge to guide me along the way. So, study, understand and appreciate what I currently don't know first. Then I'll be better prepared to admit the rest of what I still don't know.

On the shop floor we always found that it was easier to refit the existing fore-end than fit a new one from scratch!