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Don't know much about these, but I figured Winchester made, PERFECT bores, have not been through Wheedon, one is a 4 digit serial # - the other 6, bolt/barrel/receiver match all in excellent shape (lots of cosmoline everywhere) was worth $360. Did I do OK?
Yes, I'd say you did pretty darn good. Do the rear sight serial numbers also match? Are they fully wooded? What makes you think they haven't been through Weedon? The rear volley sight missing its arm suggests otherwise. More pictures please.
If there is a daisy stamp (asterisk) on the receiver, bolt handle, extractor and butt then it went through Weedon. If it has no rear volley sight as kiwi said and no front volley sight but the base is on the stock that is an indicator as well. - Bill
I did not say I did not think they had been arsenal rebuilt, my guess is that they have, just not Weedon. The rear sight serial numbers do not match. No asterisk anywhere. The blurring is way to nice to be original. Again, bores are perfect and original per the matching serial numbers to the receiver and bolt. Found what I think is an importer stamp. Will update with pics later. Really wondering where they were for so long that they were never upgraded but did go to some sort of rebuilding. Thanks for your interest and helpQuote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi
---------- Post added at 12:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:31 AM ----------
No stamps daisy asterisk or otherwise to be found. Guess I could measure the lugs if I knew what the before and after was supposed to be. Also, does not look like barrels have been st back at all. Question: is it hard to find these that have not been upgraded (altered) and are they safe to shoot? ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by oldfoneguy
The stock's will tell you where the WRS took place. Underside to stock below hand grip there should be a pointed star with a capital letter. A star and an E for example means the WRS occurred at RSAF Enfield. Looking forward to the pictures.
Oh cool. Not at home, but will look. Can't figure out how to upload more pictures. On my iPad at the office. Have many, but few of the wood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi
OK. Will upload some pictures here of the metal. Wood to follow.
And some of the wood. Interesting thing - stock only looks roughed in. You can still see the lines from the duplicator. Never finished sanded. only 3 things on the under side - an X a 6 and a 1. See photos. No brass disc. Has been plugged.
Here is a super easy way to tell if it went through a Weedon process. Pull out your bolt get a good flashlight and look for the mill work done to mine during the Weedon refurb. If your barrel face has this relief milled into it then it's been Weedon'd. Your 6 digit serial numbered one may not have needed the Weedon treatment. If it was made in December 1916 or later they started life with the longer bolt lug and didn't need the change done. If in the British arsenal in 1939 the 4 digit one most certainly would have been changed during it's refurb.
Seeing as you have 2 compare the length of the bolt lugs opposite of the extractor, that's the one that was lengthened. The lug on the 4 digit serial number should be .010" shorter coming out from the bolt face toward the chamber.
Many weren't refurb'd and they are less common than those that were but they are out there and not unheard of. Take a quick run through the older threads in this section and you will find several. - Bill
Interesting. Thanks for the info. So one has been rebuilt, one has not. The older 4 digit rifle (blued bolt) has not been. "Newer" 6 digit (bright bolt) has. It has the asterisk on the extractor and N.S. on bolt body. See pics
The other interesting thing is that the older "unaltered" one sits in an Eddystone stock. The newer one sits in a correct P14 stock. You know where i'm going with this. Yes - the switch is on.
The blued bolt is an original small lug configuration, congratulations! If the chamber on the right is the 6 digit one it has not been modified and is original to the rifle. The daisy on the extractor is a Weedon stamp but may just be a used replacement as they are easy to break if not feeding from the magazine. If the rifle doesn't have that stamp on the bolt handle and the receiver then it hasn't had a Weedon refurb and was most likely made later with the larger bolt lug. The NS stamp stands for nickel steel and was a common stamp on later Winchester P14's and all US Model 1917's. - Bill
Thanks for all of the great information Bill. Much appreciated. Don
Actually, I think you have got original bluing there; those numbers are too crisp at the edges and the surface appears too untouched to be anything else IMHO. Rare bird indeed if I'm right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baldy44
Bill - Quite possible as the markings are still very sharp. Can't find edges that have been rounded either. Perfect bores are an indication as these obviously have not been shot/cleaned much. Hoping one is a good shooter for Perry. May go back and buy the remaining two which were equally as nice. Cheers...
I wish you luck Don and often wonder why I don't fall into good fortune like that...ever!
Let us know what you end up with.
I'm curious if you could do any better than what you have already found. - Bill
Bill - You seem very knowledgeable on these, so I'm hitting you up with another question. Is it totally improper to find a P14 in a 1917 stock, or was it one frequently out of necessity. Kinda thinking someone at Camp Perry might complain unless I can show evidence that it was common/proper. A 1917 wont the vintage bolt match just a couple years ago but I think I can get more accuracy out of one of the P14's to be honest. Thanks.
If you search a bit here, you'll find threads talking about this very thing. There are minor differences in the rifles and some are more than minor...Quote:
Originally Posted by Baldy44
Don it is very common to find a P14 in a Model 1917 stock. My own Remington P14 came in a beautiful Eddystone Model 1917 stock. I replaced that with a Remington P14 stock and transferred my sporter 1917 into the Eddystone. There was a British manufacturer whose name escapes me that made M1917 style stocks for P14's during the Weedon refurbs. There were also many 1917 stocks that were shipped to Britain during the first war for use as spares.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baldy44
Will it be accepted at Camp Perry? Sorry but that is a question I can't truthfully answer as I have no experience in dealing with them. In my limited match experience, the rules seem to be set by the judges on the morning of the match. I'm sure Perry is somewhat different however than the local matches I've been in. I would contact someone there for proper info. - Bill
Those WW2 era P14 stocks were stamped No.3 MkII on the right side of the buttstock.Quote:
Originally Posted by oldfoneguy
Bill, the British company making the stocks was H. Morris & Co, Glasgow. They were a furniture manufacturer (and still are).Quote:
Originally Posted by oldfoneguy
From all I've read the up-grade from Mk1 standard to Mk1* was not a modification undertaken at Weedon, but an up-grade in the rifles' spec incorpoated at the manufacturing stage. The first 100,000 rifles or so from each manufacturer were Mk1's, then the spec was changed and all further production was at Mk1* standard. Major machining work such as milling out the breech faces for the longer bolt lug would have been outside the remit of the refurbishment process.
Harry, what I've read from a reliable source (Remington Society of America) all P14's made in December 1916 and after were built with the larger bolt lug upgrade. It has been my understanding that the Weedon process was established to upgrade the surviving stock of pre December 1916 built rifles to the Mk I* standard. It is also my understanding that not all of this work was done at Weedon itself but was contracted to several small shops that were capable of this type of work. If you know what to look for and the key to the codes (which I don't know) you can look at a Weedon process rifle and know where the work was done.
Thank you for the name H. Morris & Co. Deep in the gray matter I had some recall that the firm was Scottish but just couldn't draw out the name. Hopefully I may remember this going forward but my hopes for that aren't very high. - Bill
My understanding of the Weedon process is that it was purely a refurbishment programme. Rifles were repaired or refurbished purely with a view to making defective rifles serviceable again. Any which had gone into storage as Mk1's would merely have been inspected, and repaired as necessary.
I don't know if rebarrelling may have been undertaken as part of this, but it's the only way I can think of that a Mk1 would have come out of Weedon as a Mk1*. But even if that is the case the "upgrade" would have been an accidental result of having the barrel replaced, rather than a conscious effort to up-grade.
The fact that many Mk1*s in civilian hands today have Mk1 bolts fitted, further muddies the waters.
I believe that any Mk I's in arsenal storage between 1939 & 1940 were upgraded to Mk I* specs. The thought behind the initial upgrade was the round could fall off the bolt face prior to chambering. Any and every service rifle available had to be ready for action which is why I believe the upgrade was done. The majority of rifles seen without an upgrade in original Mk I configuration look like they have never been reworked since originally issued. Rifles that most likely were never returned to store. They either remained in private hands or some far off colony post war.
Please see the pictures of my Remington P14 which has under gone a Weedon process.
The mouth of the barrel at the chamber has been relived to accommodate the larger bolt lug. This was the common process to upgrade the rifles with a replacement bolt. Some bolts were new manufactured but most were used and were always matched to the original maker. My bolt in particular was a used Remington and previously numbered. The old serial was ground off the bottom of the handle and forced matching numbers were added to the top. Other than that the rifle was all matching. The tell tale "daisy" indication of a Weedon process refurb is stamped throughout the rifle including the chamber, bolt handle, extractor and stock. - Bill