A No.4 T for 20 bucks

Found this stripped barreled action in a pile of rusty shotgun and 22 barrels today.

The muzzle end was sticking out showing the bayonet lugs so I reached in to grab it as I was in need of a barrel, I was happy to see it was attached to a receiver.

I literally took a triple take when I saw the squares where the old pads sat and thought it couldn't be....

Well it is! 1943 BSA no.4 T with full length shiny barrel!

The owner said 20 bucks and I didn't argue.

I did tell him what it was and The price was still 20 bucks.

I have a mount and mk1 scope so this one will be getting rebuilt over the next few months/years.

Hard to see but above the TR on the wrist is the serial which looks electro pencilled and matches the barrel.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...lth3eccg-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...jvlpojo5-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...vjwqimxc-1.jpg

Although I've stopped buying bits or long term projects, I'd doubt I would pass on that...... nice find.

I wouldn't either! It is also a little more interesting than average (well, if you're an anorak like me) in that it has the smaller than the norm receiver side wall 'T'. I have owned or seen several rifles like this & still have one in my collection. I have no doubts whatsoever that they are correct, & I have only ever seen this phenomenon on BSA 1943 rifles.

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

I wouldn't either! It is also a little more interesting than average (well, if you're an anorak like me) in that it has the smaller than the norm receiver side wall 'T'. I have owned or seen several rifles like this & still have one in my collection. I have no doubts whatsoever that they are correct, & I have only ever seen this phenomenon on BSA 1943 rifles.

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Very interesting thanks Roger!
Now I need a set of good pads.

As a matter of interest, those 'T's, 'S's and inspectors stamps only had a short life on the bench. Don't forget that they are wearing out during each and every hit! I found quite a few T stamps in fair to worn out condition when I sat at the examiners bench....... I suspect these small T's were used for the period until they too were worn out and then replaced and so on and on and on

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

As a matter of interest, those 'T's, 'S's and inspectors stamps only had a short life on the bench. Don't forget that they are wearing out during each and every hit! I found quite a few T stamps in fair to worn out condition when I sat at the examiners bench....... I suspect these small T's were used for the period until they too were worn out and then replaced and so on and on and on

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Once I find a set of pads (and time) I'll be putting your articles to good use Peter!

If you want pads that are reputedly as good as they get, get on to Fultons of Bisley. To be honest, if I was sitting on a potential £2000 worth of rifle I'd be cracking on with it now! Get a bracket from Roger Payne, borrow a telescope to collimate the lot together........

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

If you want pads that are reputedly as good as they get, get on to Fultons of Bisley. To be honest, if I was sitting on a potential £2000 worth of rifle I'd be cracking on with it now! Get a bracket from Roger Payne, borrow a telescope to collimate the lot together........

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Yes I want the best I can buy for sure. No way I'm messing around with repro.

I currently have a Dalglish bracket that someone "lightened" but is still solid, and that no.32mk1 with serials removed that I intend to use. Unless anyone can suggest otherwise, that'll be the setup.

Unless you already have a set or know of a magician of a machinist, I'd strongly suggest you buy a set of body pads (bases) from Fultons of Bisley here in the UK. I don't know for sure the current price, other than it will not be cheap, but they are superb. As well as being well made, they also 'look' right.

Yes, I guess there was a small T (or maybe a few of them) in the H&H workshop during the latter part of 1943! It doesn't seem to be until that year that the side wall T's were consistently applied (earlier rifles were commonly though by no means always retro-stamped) so perhaps the small T was the first issue, soon giving way to the 'normal' sized one?? Just speculation, of course........

ATB.

Added later: sorry, just saw Peter had already mentioned about Fultons' pads!

This will be an interesting build, one thing I would do before even getting pads, bolt bodies and the like is to check the receiver over with a fine tooth comb to ensure there is nothing wrong with it same with the barrel if alls well then full steam ahead. I would just hate to see dollars poured into it just to find something was missed and thats the reason it was in the $20 bucket.
Good score well done anyway........

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

This will be an interesting build, one thing I would do before even getting pads, bolt bodies and the like is to check the receiver over with a fine tooth comb to ensure there is nothing wrong with it same with the barrel if alls well then full steam ahead. I would just hate to see dollars poured into it just to find something was missed and thats the reason it was in the $20 bucket.
Good score well done anyway........

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I have some cerrosafe here to do a chamber casting and it looks like there's some slight vice marks on the receiver and wrench marks on the barrel, so I'll be sure check the barrel index also.
The metal itself is in decent shape showing no rust or pitting on the receiver and some surface rust on the barrel only.
I have parkerizing tanks here also so I'll be sure to give her a fresh look.

It wasn't so much in the 20 dollar bucket as it just belonged to someone who gave zero sh!t$ about it.

Hmmm vice marks and wrench marks that sets the alarm bells going as the Lee action is notoriously weak longitudinally to twisting and its a piece of pi$$ to wreck the action if you do not use the correct tools for the job to remove & replace the barrel, obviously Bubba has flown in some where, I hope the action is sound.

Jon,
Good find there. Looks like it has given great service to someone, and really good to see it being resurrected by someone who cares about its historical prestige in the Milsurps world.

Good luck with it and keep the photos coming as she progresses as a reborn service rifle.
You never know, whilst someone is going through their records they may even find some background to provide a little provenance!

Maybe someone with better eyesight than mine can confirm, but it looks like the serial number prefix is AT, which is also spot on for a lateish 43 rifle.

Correct Roger it is AT 3758

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

Hmmm vice marks and wrench marks that sets the alarm bells going as the Lee action is notoriously weak longitudinally to twisting and its a piece of pi$$ to wreck the action if you do not use the correct tools for the job to remove & replace the barrel, obviously Bubba has flown in some where, I hope the action is sound.

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Looks like whoever tried to remove the barrel gave up rather quickly, the action is not twisted and the vice marks are light, they'll come right out.

---------- Post added at 10:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 AM ----------

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Originally Posted by Gil Boyd

Jon,
Good find there. Looks like it has given great service to someone, and really good to see it being resurrected by someone who cares about its historical prestige in the Milsurps world.

Good luck with it and keep the photos coming as she progresses as a reborn service rifle.
You never know, whilst someone is going through their records they may even find some background to provide a little provenance!

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I certainly hope to do it justice!
I want this back to as close to original as I Can, I won't skimp out on repro parts and will take pictures as I go.
I will start a new thread for it as work progresses.

---------- Post added at 10:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:34 AM ----------

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

Maybe someone with better eyesight than mine can confirm, but it looks like the serial number prefix is AT, which is also spot on for a lateish 43 rifle.

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Yessir, AT prefix

There is an EMER Miscellaneous Instruction to detect a twisted body. But, alas, there is no repair standard!

I think we are all crossing our fingers and hope the receivers in good order. What a great find!

Hopefully its just one of those rifles that's been stripped down years ago as a potential sporting rifle build that never got underway.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

There is an EMER Miscellaneous Instruction to detect a twisted body. But, alas, there is no repair standard!

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Have you any of that info I could look up?
My not so scientific method will be to compare it to a couple other receivers I have in the form of eyeballing them from behind....

Got a message from a true gent offering me a set of pads if he can locate them!
I wish him all the luck in his quest!!

If he comes up empty handed, I've sent an inquiry to Fultons of Bisley if they have a set available.

As luck would have it, our fellow milsurp enthusiast has found the pads and is in the process of shipping them to me.

I can't get over the generosity and willingness to help within this community.

Many many thanks to Bob for the massive help in ressurecting a long forgotten T!

---------- Post added at 04:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:42 PM ----------

Was looking over the action today and as far as the vice and wrench marks are concerned, they are quite light. Certainly not evident of any force used to try to removebthe barrel.
It looks more like the action was held in a vice while the components were removed from it.

Left side vice marks
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...eawwlivv-1.jpg

Right side, barely visible next to the S
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ozsoxhsm-1.jpg

wrench marks?
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...w3czkn1w-1.jpg

---------- Post added at 04:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:47 PM ----------

Few more stamps and barrel condition

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...raff9zdt-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...gygw4dev-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...taendwx0-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...zrrhmmde-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by jonh172

Left side vice marks

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by jonh172

wrench marks?

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Yep, looks like someone was definitely "Having a go" at that one. No idea how to take a barrel off but going to try it anyway. I know one that used to grab the receiver by the flat bottom and top edge in a vise and use a huge adjustable wrench to grab the barrel. Looks like that here...

That galling is evident of a bit of applied force, I am looking forward to seeing a Phoenix rise from the ashes and the rifle coming back to its former glory good luck to you sir.

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

That galling is evident of a bit of applied force, I am looking forward to seeing a Phoenix rise from the ashes and the rifle coming back to its former glory good luck to you sir.

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My luck jar must be bone dry by now for not only finding the action but also someone offering me a set of real pads to boot!

Hardest part will most likely be getting those old screw studs out, if I can do that without ruining the threads the rest should be fairly straight forward after a little optical collimation.

I've pretty much already sourced all the parts except a cheek riser and full length forend.

Looks like some one has had a go at the very last one on the rear pad, you may have to gently heat the screws and the area where they go through the receiver as I think they were silver soldered as they were done up to ensure they never came loose. One course of action may be pilot hole them if possible then use an easi-out tool!

To test for a twisted body we had a BODY PLATE. This was a 3/8 or 1/2" thick steel machined flat plate that had cut-outs of different sizes to cater for the front trigger guard screw and the block for the drawers/sear axis block. This was configured for the No1 rifle on one side and the No4 and 5 rifle on the other side. The plate could be held/clamped in the leather vice jaws. The body is placed on the plate and it should sit flat and not rock left/right or bow front to rear. Nothing too complicated. But the bodies are real basxxxxx to UN twist. We wouldn't bother even trying...... as when they came in to us it was usually for some other reason. I do recall that when a rifle was sentenced ZF for a twisted body it had to go back with the G-1043 paperwork marked in a certain way (forget but will check.......) to the effect that the condemnation was total

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

Looks like some one has had a go at the very last one on the rear pad, you may have to gently heat the screws and the area where they go through the receiver as I think they were silver soldered as they were done up to ensure they never came loose. One course of action may be pilot hole them if possible then use an easi-out tool!

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I'm expecting the studs are soldered....
Heat and an easy out is going to be my first method.

---------- Post added at 08:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:59 AM ----------

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

To test for a twisted body we had a BODY PLATE. This was a 3/8 or 1/2" thick steel machined flat plate that had cut-outs of different sizes to cater for the front trigger guard screw and the block for the drawers/sear axis block. This was configured for the No1 rifle on one side and the No4 and 5 rifle on the other side. The plate could be held/clamped in the leather vice jaws. The body is placed on the plate and it should sit flat and not rock left/right or bow front to rear. Nothing too complicated. But the bodies are real basxxxxx to UN twist. We wouldn't bother even trying...... as when they came in to us it was usually for some other reason. I do recall that when a rifle was sentenced ZF for a twisted body it had to go back with the G-1043 paperwork marked in a certain way (forget but will check.......) to the effect that the condemnation was total

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I see.
The old eyeball technique sure won't do.
I have a machinist buddy here and will see if he can fashion something you described.

The pad screws were only soft soldered in, so you won't have to get it too hot.

Roger does silver solder melt at a higher temp than lead or vice versa!

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

The pad screws were only soft soldered

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Yes, that was my understanding.

Silver solder is a different animal. You need real heat to do that, soft solder is just lead and won't take much. Too, after the hole is open you can chase the thread with a tap and not hurt the tap. It just cleans the lead out. Basic guide for solder would be... Tin/lead 60/40:361-374°F.(183-190°C) 50/50:361-421°F.(183-216°C) 63/37:361°F (183°C)Melts and flows at same temp.

Lead free, Tin/silver

96/4: 430°F(221°C) Melts and flows same temp.

Jim just about said it all Cinders. Can't remember the relevant temps for silver solders, but they're quite a bit higher - the process is as much akin to brazing as soft soldering.

If you are handy with a MIG welder, those front screws would be an easy removal. Put a small flatwasher with the appropriate size hole over the highest one, then a larger machine nut over the washer. Hit the top of the broken screw with the mig welder and fill the nut within reason with weld. You can then remove the broken screw by turning out the nut. There will be minimum heat transfer to the actual receiver...the stud will absorb it all and likely melt the solder at the same time.

If you are not handy with a mig welder, then best not try this yourself.

I have removed broken bolts, studs and screws on many items from engine blocks to gun receivers with this method, and have not had to use an extractor in a lot of years.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Yes, that was my understanding.

Silver solder is a different animal. You need real heat to do that, soft solder is just lead and won't take much. Too, after the hole is open you can chase the thread with a tap and not hurt the tap. It just cleans the lead out. Basic guide for solder would be... Tin/lead 60/40:361-374°F.(183-190°C) 50/50:361-421°F.(183-216°C) 63/37:361°F (183°C)Melts and flows at same temp.

Lead free, Tin/silver

96/4: 430°F(221°C) Melts and flows same temp.

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Thank you for this information!

---------- Post added at 01:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:15 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by stencollector

If you are handy with a MIG welder, those front screws would be an easy removal. Put a small flatwasher with the appropriate size hole over the highest one, then a larger machine nut over the washer. Hit the top of the broken screw with the mig welder and fill the nut within reason with weld. You can then remove the broken screw by turning out the nut. There will be minimum heat transfer to the actual receiver...the stud will absorb it all and likely melt the solder at the same time.

If you are not handy with a mig welder, then best not try this yourself.

I have removed broken bolts, studs and screws on many items from engine blocks to gun receivers with this method, and have not had to use an extractor in a lot of years.

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Very interesting technique, i am unfortunately MIG welder inept....

Looking at them, they look like they're plain and simple soft soldered - as per standard. Do you want to know what Armourers used to do......? Come a bit closer as I don't want to upset the real experts out there. I've done a few in my time and L42's were the biggest offenders....... Right. Just carefully drill into the centre of the remaining screw head and punch a small allen key into the hole that you've drilled......., go on, bang it in hard..... Now heat that part of the body up until the solder turns shiny silver and wind the screw right through or back out. Never failed yet and soooooooo simple!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Looking at them, they look like they're plain and simple soft soldered - as per standard. Do you want to know what Armourers used to do......? Come a bit closer as I don't want to upset the real experts out there. I've done a few in my time and L42's were the biggest offenders....... Right. Just carefully drill into the centre of the remaining screw head and punch a small allen key into the hole that you've drilled......., go on, bang it in hard..... Now heat that part of the body up until the solder turns shiny silver and wind the screw right through or back out. Never failed yet and soooooooo simple!

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Perfect thanks Peter!

---------- Post added at 01:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:33 PM ----------

Is there a specific brand of soft solder to look for? Can anyone suggest a retailer where I can order some?

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Now heat that part of the body up until the solder turns shiny silver and wind the screw right through or back out.

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Yes, that's what I'd do...not weld it over.

Just soft solder and follow the instructions in the article to the letter regarding the screws.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

To test for a twisted body we had a BODY PLATE. This was a 3/8 or 1/2" thick steel machined flat plate that had cut-outs of different sizes to cater for the front trigger guard screw and the block for the drawers/sear axis block. This was configured for the No1 rifle on one side and the No4 and 5 rifle on the other side. The plate could be held/clamped in the leather vice jaws. The body is placed on the plate and it should sit flat and not rock left/right or bow front to rear. Nothing too complicated. But the bodies are real basxxxxx to UN twist. We wouldn't bother even trying...... as when they came in to us it was usually for some other reason. I do recall that when a rifle was sentenced ZF for a twisted body it had to go back with the G-1043 paperwork marked in a certain way (forget but will check.......) to the effect that the condemnation was total

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My holding plate, fairly basic!:


http://www.milsurps.com/images/impor...stuff068-1.jpg


http://www.milsurps.com/images/impor...stuff066-1.jpg


http://www.milsurps.com/images/impor...stuff067-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by jmoore

My holding plate, fairly basic!:


http://www.milsurps.com/images/impor...stuff068-1.jpg


http://www.milsurps.com/images/impor...stuff066-1.jpg


http://www.milsurps.com/images/impor...stuff067-1.jpg

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That IS a simple setup, thanks for the pictures!

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Originally Posted by jonh172

That IS a simple setup, thanks for the pictures!

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Quite useful for working on the pads/mounting holes, if needed. Hence the extra width, so you can mount the plate in a milling vice or 90 degree angle plate with toe clamps.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

I wouldn't either! It is also a little more interesting than average (well, if you're an anorak like me) in that it has the smaller than the norm receiver side wall 'T'. I have owned or seen several rifles like this & still have one in my collection. I have no doubts whatsoever that they are correct, & I have only ever seen this phenomenon on BSA 1943 rifles.

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So was it one enterprising armourer who was stamping them or were they in fact converted at BSA as the records state, and they were using a smaller "T"?

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Originally Posted by jonh172

I've sent an inquiry to Fultons of Bisley if they have a set available.

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Well, they had a set on display last Sunday.

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Originally Posted by harry mac

Well, they had a set on display last Sunday.

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Thanks!
A forum member has a set of originals for me, the community here is amazing!

I love projects like this. They may take years to finish but the thrill of that find makes it all worth it. I bought a real Remington Model 10 WWI trench gun receiver in a parts bin for $40 years ago. It took a long time but I finally got her done last year.

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Originally Posted by nhetzer

I finally got her done last year.

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How about considering doing a thread on that gun? We'd love to see it all done up in pics...?

You could probably use a No.22 Tel. just to collimate. They're pretty cheap.

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

You could probably use a No.22 Tel. just to collimate. They're pretty cheap.

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I'll just use my no.32mk1

Thread 47........ Just make sure that before you do use it, that it is PROPERLY collimated in itself - in that the optical axis of the telescope, indicated by the rotary position of the tip of the graticle is exactly aligned with the mechanical axis of the tube

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Thread 47........ Just make sure that before you do use it, that it is PROPERLY collimated in itself - in that the optical axis of the telescope, indicated by the rotary position of the tip of the graticle is exactly aligned with the mechanical axis of the tube

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Will do Peter!
I'll be sending it to Warren (Wheaty) in Sudbury for a tune up and then will follow your collimation instructions.

The beauty of the No.22 is that the collimation is already done: the reticule is fixed and centered .

Why they chose to put that scope with a measly 1" tube, minimal eye relief and not even a rubber bumper on the eye-end on the long-awaited 6 Pounder AT gun is a mystery. The 2 Pdr. had a far better sight in the No.24 and by 1942 the gun was more or less a useless toy, since they adamantly refused to provide it with either a HE or a canister cartridge. They could have taken the sights from the 2 Pdrs. and put them on the 6 Pounders since the adjustments were all external.

Whoever made that decision should have been hit over the head with a No.22