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Gents, would anyone have photos of the type of canister or crate used for Bren gun air drops to French Resistance in 1944.
A friend of mine was offered a wooden box that supposedly had a Bren in it. But to me it does not look military at all. More like home made.
I would like some proper info so I can prevent him buying an expensive piece of fire wood!
30Three,
Well hopefully I can fill in a small part of that. In our Parachute Regiment Museum at Duxford we hold several such containers, which I can best describe as long circular metal containers that come apart into two halves once the parachute straps were undone.
If they were EVER made in wood I have never seen one, well not in this man's Army anyway.
Could have been in another country......but not to my knowledge. Hope that helps.
I will try and post a container when I can find it on my database. ;)
Here you go.............metal two halves
A really bold maybe that it was a transit chest, more likely a shipping crate made by a workshop to send it to storage or surplus even... Some of those were really shabby.Quote:
Originally Posted by 30Three
Wood breaks on landing if you parachute stuff in it. Splinters everywhere, damages contents, etc. Except if securely padded, etc, which makes is it too expensive. Except if you drop pallets and the wood is used to absorb shock, even then there are better and cheaper options even in WW II.
Thank you Gil. I suspected it should be metal (probably aluminium).
My friend is currently researching some of the local history of the French Resistance and this item was shown to him. It could be something that was made and used for storage after the drop; or it could just be an empty box!
I recently acquired a No4 rifle that was part of a local drop in 1944. Currently waiting for the paperwork to come back from the authorities. I'll post details of the rifle when all the legal details are sorted.
30Three,
Sorry, so are you saying your friend has a wooden copy of the standard British weapon cannister?? I think it is a normal Bren or Rifle wooden chest which he is talking about.
I bet you chuckled at the thought of a wooden air-drop container Gil! Jeeeees...... Can you just imagine it?
I found this picture. Were not all the British containers a standard size?
Even the famous WEL bike got dropped in New Guinea air drops were often perilous for the aircraft due to terrain and low flying usually a only a 100'+- then pushing stuff out wrapped in blankets for a padded landing or just straight out the door with some instances of troops being killed by the falling supplies. Imagine surviving the Japanese attacks, disease, mud & the cold just to be taken out by a can of Bully beef............................
Oops few dollars down the gurgler here..........
Humvees failed airdrop - YouTube
Thats precisely why you clear the DZ as quick as you can, once you have your kit on your back and your weapon out of its sleeve, as heavy drops are renowned for this type of incident and they follow the troop drop very quickly.
Was this a riggers course?? either way, its a major enquiry
I was once told that it was ok to parachute drop military spec Land Rovers but civilian Land Rovers had to be put on a pallet before parachute dropping or you were likely to break the chassis in the drop. This was told to me by a T.A. soldier but I have no idea if it's correct or not. I do know that there are differences in the specification between military and civilian Land Rovers.
Whats the cost of a fully kitted out Humvee with all the gear on-board just turn key......and go!
I am not sure the person laughing at the 3 failures if this had this been an operational drop that they had to leg it back say 40-50 klms back to base with full kit.....tax payer gets hit again.
Flying10uk,
Well your TA lad was way off the mark and clearly never attended a parachute riggers course run by Air Despatch.
All vehicles are palletized like this Pinzgauer and trailer and the course is one of the hardest physical courses you can attend in the Army run at RAF Brize Norton where accidents are not allowed to happen.
The U.S. do there courses differently to us, with completely diferent pallets and do have a high failure rate as shown by the video.
Gil, what my friend has is a rectangular wooden box that was said to have a Resistance owned Bren stored in it.
It was obvious to me that it was not a military spec box;(no handles on it and one small latch) but wanted to show him a photo of what it would have been supplied in because he wasn't sure.
I was not sure if the standard metal drop container would have been used on Resistance stuff.
Thanks for the photo's .
A lot of the heavy drop stuff was dropped at the old RAF Watchfield DZ near Shrivenham where I lived as a lad. I think that it was called Arnhem Camp and quite often you'd see heavy loads exit apparently quite successfully and then tip........ and tip a bit more and in it'd go, full tilt! Arnhem Camp is now part of the Shrivenham by-pass and the Air Dispatch part of RAF Abingdon is now part of a school playing fields and new houses
Those Pinzgauers Gil....... a bit of a story behind them! Land Rover were WELL behind schedule for two contracts supplying new LR's AND spare parts to the MoD due to the usual strikes and pi55-poor industrial relations at LR - then part of the notorious British Leyland JRT cowboy outfit. Things came to a head and the MoD procurement were being harangued by the MoD and gave LR an ultimatum that they were to re-start the previous delivery contract AND have the next signed and sealed supply contract started by the following week.
Like all the previous threats, (including Austin and Morris staff car contracts) LR ignored it. But not for long because the following Friday Daimler Steyr Putch (DSP) got the contract. And LR lost out!
Peter,
That made me chuckle..............and shows how fickle MOD Abbey Wood and Donnington are currently over contracts regardless of how big or small you are, as I know only to well recently.
The Pinzgauers are a big part of 16 Air Assault, becuase they don't break down. They also make strong money at disposal sites too.
7 PARA Royal Horse Artillery tow their guns with these wagons, and really odd to see the wheels towing in when they do, amazing little trucks.
For Flying10UK,
They drop them in on pallets too, both together............successfully:thup:
I have a funny feeling that the DSPuch trucks had already been trialed as replacements for the forward control V8 LR's so getting them was no hardship - except for the price! But in quantity the orders/prices were pretty similar. Are the DSP's still being used? Haven't seen one for ages. My old ASM was involved in this palava and also the ill fated RB trucks based on a French Renault(?).....
Gil, the T.A. chap, long since deceased, was only an acquaintance and while I remember what he said about parachuting Land Rovers I didn't know if what he was saying was right or wrong. I didn't listen to every word he said and take it as gospel and equally and I didn't turn round and tell him, to his face, that he didn't know what he was talking about. The chap must have told me this about 20 years ago and I put what he said to the back of my mind and this is the first time that I recall repeating it.
What about Lightweight, Air Transportable Land Rovers? Are they put on pallets before being air dropped or moved by helicopter?
We had lots of vehicles we dropped, there was a bulldozer without blade, basically a Caterpillar tractor that had more jumps than most men. The Chevrolet pickup trucks we had were dropped on pallet with lots of cardboard honeycomb but still were barely serviceable after many drops. They were almost dangerous to drive after...just a fact that even though they might be landing correctly and rigged correctly they still take such severe impact that their life is limited.
Weren't the lightweight series 3 LRs designed to be light for internal freight, i.e. By Hercules cargo bay,
The old series 3 were rigged for roll out drops in the early years before the 463L pallet. The rover had the canopy removed and the chutes were in the back. Rover went out backwards. Vehicle was driven in and lashed down to the floor and at drop time it was man powered out with a bit of help from the pilot pulling the nose up. That was all before my time. I had the joy of rigging the series 3 with trailer and load onto a 347 L pallet in the tried and true methods but when we changed to the 110 it did not fly like the series 3 and we lost a few trying out different rigging methods. Back then we used mostly British style equipment with American compatible rigging methods.
Nothing is dropped in the L/R range or any other make without the tops being stripped down first as clearly they would be ripped off within the first few seconds of departing the tailgate.
No such thing as the old Lightweight 1/4 ton L/R's anymore, as the new ones are so over packed, and many lads place their bergens and other kit on the vehicles before prep work is carried out.
Slightly different to 50 foot tailgate drops, where they need the kit ASAP on arrival to be ready to go.
Peter, Loads of Pinz's at Colchester, but as the roll changed at the latter days of Herrick clearly these vehicles never saw "active" service for obvious reasons, that was left to the Jackal and other derivatives to protect the guys from IED's etc
Attachment 85628
I understand that these were used by parachutists during and after WWII. It is shown in a book on British paratroops. I was told it will take the BREN and No.4/5 rifles.
Is the chord so that the soldier can release the weapon when he nears the ground and the weapon lands first yet remains attached to the soldier via the chord?
Lowering rope. It allows the weapon to remain attached but not attached to the man's body. Equipment also is lowered before landing. Landing with equipment can be a pig...and hurt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
The unknown factor whether your container was going to stay with you or drop once lowered to 15 foot on the rope, was always the strap which attached to your parachute harness and doubled back on itself to ensure it was a secure attachment.
Unfortunately, the weight of your container dictated whether the two of you were to part company, and that weight always found the weakest link.
Often shouts from above as containers went headlong into the deck. It was normally those carrying mortar parts like the base plate or tube or the Charlie G
Or the odd .30 cal. One time the CO was walking along the edge of the DZ and was shouted at ti stand still. A .30 cal impacted a few yards ahead, the direction he was walking...(Spare parts for Peter)...Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
Thanks Jim. So presumably the lowering rope is attached to the parachute harness/rigging, not to the soldier, but in such a way to minimise the risk of injury to the soldier?Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
Gil and BAR, you hit the nail right on the head.......... Some of these memories ........... nobody who'd never been on the DZ or landing grounds would even start to understand
Correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
And some days it's rainin' gear...helmets, rucksacks, weapons, toboggans...small stuff from the rucksack pouches...Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
... only two things fall from the sky, bird poo and fools. Thoughts expressed to me by a straight leg infantryman.
And the rest come down under controlled decent by parachute.Quote:
Originally Posted by breakeyp
Breakeyp,
Reason he's straight legged, is because he forgot to lower his rifle in the container, does happen and it hurts :lol::lol:
Are back problems common among, older, former parachutists who have done many jumps or is it just those who have had a number of bad landings? The reason that I ask is that a friend of a friend, who had been a parachutist in his younger days, had terrific back problems in later life but I don't know how common this is.
Back, knees, ankles...neck...concussions... Picture jumping repeatedly from a 12 foot platform onto various surfaces. Depending on the man, could be several hundred times and a high several hundred. Feet and knees together, diagonal line across the back. That's unless you misjudge the wind and do a heels-a*s-head...and perhaps since it was a night jump didn't get your equipment down in time. So, you land with your rucksack attached. Shall we go on about the Machine gunner? Makes it hard to walk and stand some days. Or...sit, or sleep...can't squat down...Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
....................other than that we are fine, might need a hand up from the prone position on occasion:lol::lol:
I did 24 or 26 static line jumps and while I did suffer from a bad back for a year in the mid to late 70's, that was caused by leaning over incorrectly lifting a battery from the boot of a mini. I learned from that and always looked after my back thereafter. Had a smashed knee in late 70 and shredded cartilage following a really heavy landing at Watchfield of all places. 2 weeks at BMH Tidworth but nothing since......
Your comments always make me laugh BAR and Gil....... Brian at BDL did plenty of real heavy drops......... Back and shoulders Brian?
You mean getting out of bed?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
Back trouble.......... getting off it in the morning!
Spot on.
I remember a night jump at Frog Hill, on STANTA which to the non UK Military Thetford Military training area where they filmed DAD'S ARMY.
You know sometimes you are glad it happened to someone else, well this was one such night drop of 3 Herc's in line with 180 jumpers, full kit not clean fatique.
It was a moonlit night, and not a sound in the air once the Herc's had left the immediate area.
It was a tactical DZ and drop from 800 feet, (normally 1000) to test Company RV's and rally points for the Battalion for its role as the quick reaction force (QRF) use in the future.
As the last lads came in, there was an almighty shrill and screaming that I have never heard anything like it since to this day, that filled the air.
One of the lads had managed to drop his container but had landed on a solitary concrete wire post not picked up by the RAF ground team which was overgrown, which had parted his legs on contact, but luckily his container had pulled him a fraction to one side, the post went right through his leg missing his vital parts, but it took two blankets and a lot of pressure to stem the bleeding. Had he hit it centrally, it would have gone right up into his chest taking his vitals with it. Nasty business this MILSPEC parachuting lark, and you ask whether we had bad backs :madsmile:
Anyway, thats my sales pitch for anybody considering Military parachuting.......Don't do it, join the Navy :lol:
DZ controller's job. Someone needed to be crucified for that. Complacency at it's best...Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
Jim,
There was a major enquiry, sadly like many of our training areas sheep take over, when areas get over grown and fences appear temprarily, and should always be dismantled once the job is done, something went wrong on that occasion clearly.
Not trying to be rude but what posses someone of sound mind to jump out of a perfectly serviceable aero plane when we know that primarily man was meant to be a terrestrial being!
One of our shooters smashed both ankles in a building hit when high winds took hold of his chute he would only be about 46 ish and has had at least 3 operations since I have known him in the last 9 years and they still give him curry all the time sadly was M.U from the service
Cinders,
Parachuting is just one skill, to get a highly specialised and highly trained motivated fighting force on the deck twice as quick, spread over a wider area to achieve success. It is the most exillerating buzz you can have.......military parachuting that is, operationally set at 200 feet, down their throats before they can take aim............... a hipflask of Jack is a close second :bow:
I only met the "friend of a friend" when he was a pensioner but helping him with the nightmare task of getting in and out of a car, of which every single movement was painful agony, it was hard to imagine how he must have been as a young man, a fighting fit paratrooper.
I think BAR hit the nail on the head with all of the practice jumps done off a 12' platform onto sawdust piles. I's guess we did thousands of practice "jumps", usually prior to actually loading the bird and going off on a real one. One has to wonder if all those didn't do more damage to our bodies than the actual jumps did! Right side, left side, right rear, left rear, right front, left front, front and rear. If go to fall down outside these days, I still automatically ball up up and roll out of it, even drunk!! I've had disc replacement in my neck and a cracked lumbar vertebrae. The Army told me that one was congenital. I was gutted like a fish last week with two of the worst hernias the surgeon told me he'd seen in a long time. Got the STAPLES out this morning. I've been plodding along on those for more years than anyone knows. I can't blame it all on the Army though. Ain't life great?
Amazing how a Bren Gun parachuting cannister can take in some great stories of trials and tribulations. What did they always says "Pain is a sensation, sensations should be enjoyed" says he with two new hips, probably caused by dry training as Brian says ;)
long way form the early days of wrapping stuff in blankets and shoving it out the door on a low pass
It's a perfectly serviceable parachute...Quote:
Originally Posted by CINDERS
Urrah!Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Dick
No thanks, I don't want to do that. Jumping off a hovering chopper is bad enough. Specially when the first man disappears into the growth below...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr E
Variations of the above probably told in most Recruiting Offices throughout the world, I was told similar by CSgt Carrol, (Recruiting office in Barrow-In-Furness, at the Kings Own Royal Border Regiment TA Centre) when signing up for my 22 at 15 1/2........... Lot to thank that Man for.Quote:
Originally Posted by CINDERS
I went into the army because in the Navy or Air Force, if something goes wrong, you can't walk home.
Heard a good one today.......... The Army use the stars for sleeping under at night. The Navy use them for navigation. The RAF use them for judging the quality of their hotels
I wish a cousin of my mother, who was a founder member of the Parachute Regiment when it was first formed during WW2, would have talked about his experiences more, before he passed away. Not just the actions that he was involved with but it would have been fascinating to also hear about the training of a Paratrooper when it first began. There was no blue print to go on and we weren't exactly in the position, mid WW2, to go to the Germans and ask "Could you please provide us with some help and assistance in setting up a training programme for paratroopers?"; we started from scratch. He spoke very little to anyone, even close family, of his experiences during WW2 and he left the service at the end of the war. For a long time after the war he wouldn't go anywhere near an aeroplane until eventually he had to fly somewhere in connection with his work.
I do intended to see if it is possible to obtain a copy of his service record, in due course, because I know that he served at Arnhem and it is believed that he also saw action in Norway.
That's right Peter, we don't dig in, we check in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Flying10uk,
If you PM me what you have I'll tell you what he did at Arnhem. I happen to have compiled the 11,533 names some years ago, including what happened to them after the battle, ie POW, UK or MIA. The list includes All Arms.;)
Arms amnesty in Denmark, nice Daimler/monotype Bren Mk2 and 4 STENS handed in! Also a good photo of a drop container with PIAT ammo in it.
Gun amnesty turns up WWII resistance cache (PHOTOS)
Here's one for you a RAF Hastings with an underslung Willys Jeep. Notice the domed skids under each wheel. These were highly sprung and worked very effectively when dropped at low level.
Parachutists left the aircraft whilst it was carried, pre C130 days and rear cargo door launches
Post script: This Hastings then crashed in 1953 so this image was taken late 40's early 50's
Read the crash report: ASN Aircraft accident Handley Page Hastings C.1 TG602 Shallufa RAF Station
I can see the Chinook going on for at least another 20 years..........waht a brilliant machine.
Just had the RED ARROWS go over on their way to Duxford Airshow.........double brilliant;)
We used the Chinook for years and then they went out of service. This last unpleasantness caused the CDN military to re-examine that logic and we have them again. It was humorous to hear the young guys talking about this new helicopter we'd just bought...along with the .50 cal and the M113 apc...and no one knew anything about them...
I think it was the FADEC that was the issue when the Intelligence Comunity flew into a hill in Scotland travelling back Ireland, thats why we became apprehensive of the project here in the UK
MoD knew of Chinook flaws before fatal crash, says father | UK news | The Guardian
Didn't some of the Chinooks that were taken out of service in Canada get rebuilt/refurbished and then sold onto another country?
Possibly...Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
I remember the first one that I ever saw on the ground, at the Naval dockyard at Sembawang(?) in Singapore in 1968 or 69 and had flown in from a US Navy carrier. It looked huge! And to think that we were still being ferried about in old Whirlwinds and the UK 'version' of the chinook, the belvedere............ Archaic or what!
Did you ever fly in the Belvedere Helicopter, Peter? Bristol Belvedere - Wikipedia
I thought that it was made by Westland but according to Wikipedia it was made by Bristol.
I think Bristol evolved in to Westland Helicopters along with a number of other manufacturers which probably means Westlands became the Eng Authority.
I seem to recall that the one which is at Hendon being labeled up as being made by Westland? It's interesting to read that it has inter-rotating rotors, as does the Chinook.