T3 with Non infrared scope? Fact or fiction?

The question many have wanted to ask but were afraid to for fear of being called a newby.

So, there are claims that a small number of Carbines were built and fitted with sniper scopes as used on the 1903a4 and Garand (M73 and M82). The number quoted most often is 811. The story is that they were issued to Marines in the S Pacific theater.

The question is, is this fact or fiction? Which ever side you fall on, please try to provide support for you opinion. And be kind, I did search the forum and found little.

Also, could a standard M3 scope mount accept the Redfield rings of these scopes, and thus field conversions (which, from my service experience, is quite likely).

"So, there are claims...

Which ever side you fall on, please try to provide support for you opinion..."

Provide some for your assertion first. Otherwise, it's a waste of time.

Yep, there is one in ever crowd. I am not making the claim, I merely posit the claim.

.... a M1 carbine with a scope and mounts that wouldn't interfere with ejecting spent brass.

Inland M1E7 Light Weight Sniper Carbine
Weaver model 330B
Inland plant, June 1943
Inland # XA76 started the 6,000 rd endurance test at Aberdeen August 2, 1943


P.S. T3 with NON Infrared scope............ FICTION

CH-P777

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Originally Posted by jdmcomp

Yep, there is one in ever crowd. I am not making the claim, I merely posit the claim.

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Please try to stay on the subject. Your snide remark directed at me personally is inappropriate.

Why didn't you ask the "source" of the claim for the evidence you now want? Provide info to get info.

So I can calm things down, the M3 did in fact have such equipment fitted during the Korean War used by Australian troops and during WW2. The forerunner for the Starlight scope presumably!
Fight at Night: U.S Army Night Vision 1945-1980

Come on guys, let's play nice.

As Charlie said the M1E7 was an experimental scoped carbine using a Weaver 330 commercial scope. In a nut shell the mount was very stable but the scope took a beating. By a little less then 3000 rounds the scope was destroyed internally from the forces of the brass hitting the scope. The mount went on to be used in the T3 night vision system. But the scoped M1E7 carbine was never adopted in any form.

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Originally Posted by Bruce McAskill

the scope was destroyed internally from the forces of the brass hitting the scope.

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I'm surprised they didn't use a shell deflector like the idea of the blank case deflector for the M14...

Folks--

I can speak for the M3 mount which is more of a Korean War weapon. The M3 mount will take the Redfield Junior rings for the M73, M82 and M84 scopes. The M3 mount will along take the commercial 1 inch Redfield and Leupold rings. The scopes are protected for ejected cases by the mount itself which directly under the scope. I have not seen any information that the M3 scope mounts were used with these scopes or commercial scopes. I can imagine that some enterprising GI putting one together. I don't think it would be practical since each time you removed the Infrared scope and regular scope they would have to be re-zeroed. Additionally, I believe the earlier Infrared scopes and their accessories were classified pieces of equipment and treated as such. The M3 Infrared Scope while not classified was a sensitive piece of equipment which included the scope mount. The scope mount would have not been generally available to the average Joe as it was a part of the M3 equipment package. The M3 scope mount does fit commercial Redfield bases as I had a Redfield Widefield 1 3/4 to 5 power zoom scope with a cross hair and post reticle on a carbine for many years. I had the Infrared scope as well.

--fjruple

The early T3 was used in at lest two different campaigns in the Pacific during WW2. Okinawa and in the Philippines where it performed very well. The M1E7 was made up by Inland and the commercial scope was the only one available to them at the time which was the same as the military version used on the 03. But the scope could not take a beating and it was discontinued by the military as not practical. No scope was really needed out to 150 yards like they thought a carbine sniper would have performed best at. Iron sights were more then enough as the M1 carbine was not an accurate target rifle. And fighting house to house a scope only was a hindrance.

My apology, it was said in jest and nothing more. And i did explain that I do not have skin in the game, just looking for facts/sources. After all if I had a source then there is nothing to discuss.

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Originally Posted by jdmcomp

My apology, it was said in jest and nothing more. And i did explain that I do not have skin in the game, just looking for facts/sources. After all if I had a source then there is nothing to discuss.

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We're good. I appreciate it. If we were face to face, the identical statements accompanied by a wry smile or a wink wouldn't even be noticed. This kite string and paper cup communication method has its limitations.

I'm still in the dark on what you base your theory on, so I have to cover all the weak points.

First, it's pretty safe to say the batch of 811 T3s did not go to the South Pacific (with or without conventional optics) - unless it was for storage. The SPA had been officially redesignated a supply zone 5-10 months before these 811 were produced. Not much call for a new toy in a quiet area. If your sources suggest they did, I would have qualms about relying on any other claims from the same source.

Second, why do I think the 811 T3s didn't go to the SPA during WWII under any scenario, regardless of how unlikely? Because they went somewhere else. I have a 31 Aug 45 Ordnance report showing that during the first 6 months of 1945, 809 T3s were sent to the Corps of Engineers (presumably for Sniperscope electronics installation) and the other 2 went somewhere in the Zone of the Interior (likely either for testing, or maybe photographing for FMs, PR, etc.)

I don't think anyone would posit that the Engineers were authorized to install conventional scopes on any Ordnance equipment. Had the 809 T3s somehow gone to the Engineers, then a change of plan occurred and they were sent back to Ordnance for conventional scope installation, that transfer would show up on this report. No such indication occurs.

My guess is these 809 sat around stateside with the Engineers waiting for the M2 Sniperscope electronics design to be approved and the equipment manufactured - and then the war ended. I would refer you to CCNL 368 for details on the ones that got used on Okinawa. No evidence has been presented on use in the Philippines other than the 50 sent to the SW Pacific Area for training sometime around late Sept 44. These are clearly not from the 811.

What happened after V-E Day is outside my research interest, so I'll leave that to others.

Now, moving on, the Korean war. Were any non IR scopes mounted on the T3 during Korea? The early Inland experiment seems to point to "no" but having served in the military, I can attest that what ever could happen likely did. One example was the rejected M1D being brought back. Thanks to all for interest, unicorns are difficult to research.

You're welcome.

The answer is no. Just like in WW2 there were NO scoped rifles issued. They could not take the beating of fired cases hitting the scopes and the big reason was there was no need for one as the range of the 30 carbine was useable in.