Reloading M1 Garand with Hornady .308 150g FMJ

Hello to Forum. Searched the back pages with no result, I'm looking for input for reloading my M1 Garand 30/06 with Hornady's 30 caliber .308 150 grain FMF-BT. I've reviewed Hornady's info in their latest reloading book and have seen some bits and pieces about reloading with the bullet on the web. Several online reloading business's offer pretty good sale prices on 500 plus bulk purchases, making reloading per round a good deal vs buying ammo or other bullets. (I've been reloading since '76, so not new to the process) Anyway, I've read several posts that indicate that when using the Hornady bullet for reloading the 06 in the Garand, that if the bullet is seated/crimped on the bullets cannalure, it is a little short of the needed COL needed for the good accuracy in the Garand. Several indicate seating the bullet under the cannalure. What say any of you who have experience with Hornadys 150 grain FMJ in the Garand.

Haven't loaded the Hornady 150, but I've shot a bunch of the Sierra and Nosler 155's. Buy them by the thousand, which saves over buying 100 at a time.

Just because a bullet has a cannelure, it doesn't mean you have to use it. I seat the 155 to 3.30" and they shoot very well. Good enough to win some trinkets at the annual Rifleman's Weekend M1 match.
A good M1 can shoot 2MOA when properly tuned. The ammo is only a part of the equation.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../3osHRqQ-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by Der Jagar

Hornady's 30 caliber .308 150 grain FMF-BT.

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I've shot lots and have some on hand now matter of fact. They work well enough for ball loading but I wouldn't thing they're match spec at all...I imaging they'll outshoot me but they won't be match grade... You seat them to whatever OAL you need.

"...wouldn't think they're match spec..." Nope. Not even mentioned on Hornady's site any more. However, any 150 grain data will do. Load 'em to 3.340" to about 2800 fps, if you're looking to be close to .30 M2 ammo, and forget about the cannelure altogether. The cannelure is there for no apparent reason.

I have a good supply of the Hornady 150 fmj on hand for reloading some of my bolt action military 30/06's and am just beginning to reload for the Garand, having shot a good portion of the PPU M1 Garand 150 gr 06's I bought after getting the Garand. I did load up 100 rds using H4895, IMR4064, and H-Varget using the Horn 150 fmj using three different powder grain weights of each powder to see what powder weight gave me the best accuracy. Haven't shot them yet as my North Iowa winter weather hasn't given a good day to do it, but was wondering about the shorter COL.

I've no problem raising the bullet seating depth (not crimping on cannelure), but was wondering if raising the bullet higher in the neck would affect anything, in other words would the bullet be seated to high in the neck affecting pressure and/or accuracy. Seating the bullet on the cannelure resulted in a COL of around 3.225" if I recall. The PPU 150 gr. ammo was approx. 3.325". I always strive for the best accuracy possible, but as with all of my military rifles, shooting a lot of it offhand, if I get "minute of milk jug" accuracy with no rest and get a hand covering group using a rest, I'm happy. The guns combat accuracy was around that I assume. A 2MOA or less group would be fine and I'll always strive for it, but I know the guns and my limitations.

Wondering also----those of you who do not seat on the cannelure or use a bullet with none, do you use any crimp on the 06 ammo for firing in the semiauto Garand. Reloading my AR and Mini-14 223 ammo I do, but don't for a 250 Savage bolt Ruger M77, nor do I for my various bolt action military rifles. From a lot of what I've read on reloading rifle ammo for a semiauto, a crimp is suggested, but with all things, there can be exceptions. Thanks for the previous replies.

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Originally Posted by Der Jagar

do you use any crimp on the 06 ammo for firing in the semiauto Garand

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I've used lots of bullets without crimp groove and had no problem.

To those who seat bullets without a cannelure/crimp groove or don't use one on a bullet with one, do you have any problem with bullet creep when firing OR do use put a slight crimp on the brass/bullet?

I have not had a problem with bullets moving in a case when firing as long as it's a good fit in the case. But I have had much better accuracy in a 30-06 using a 150 gr flat based bullet. The boat tail takes away just enough length to not let the bullet stabilize 100%. Groups in general are bigger. Using a heavier bullet that is boat tailed is OK as the length of the bullet allows it to be more stable and one gets better groups. But in the 150 gr class the flat base is better. Also try to load it to about 2700 fps which is the true velocity of M2 ball ammo. Commercial soft point bullets are even better for accuracy.

I load for my Garands using the hornady 150s and seat to the cannelure but as mentioned
you dont have to. I prefer to use a light crimp but know others who dont and have no problems and they shoot M1s, M1As.

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Originally Posted by Bruce McAskill

Commercial soft point bullets are even better for accuracy.

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Agreed, I once weighed 600 FMJs to find 55 that were correctish in weight. I loaded them carefully and only got pieplate accuracy. I then used some soft point bullets that were just thrown together with average care and they grouped on top of each other. They far outshot the FMJ...

In regards to Bruce M's post, I've found to in reloading some 250 Savage that some Speer 87 grain flat based soft pts out classed some BT HP's and plastic tipped bullets. Maybe it was just the right powder and bullet for that particular Ruger M77, got 1MOA out of them at 100. Coyote killers!

I searched all the online sellers of reloading supplies (all well known to all) and I couldn't find any .308 30 caliber bullets offered by the major bullet companies that came near to what the bulk 250-1000 priced Hornady 150 grain FMJ-BT can be bought for. I'm talking in the .17-.20 cent per bullet range. Everything else in the 150-155 grain range (and up) were all .10 cent on the average higher per bullet in bulk or even in the 100 box pricing on sale. Until I can find any of the higher grain, flat base, or other variation as cheap, think I'll stay with the Hornady FMJ's.

Would be interested in any place that offers good prices on reloading items that I may not know of. As I previously posted, most/a lot of my military rifle shooting is done off hand and if a rest is used it's pretty simple and 'redneck'. I use no scopes either except on rifle chambered in 250 Savage, plus a AR15 and Mini-14 which are horse's of another breed to ride and shoot. I like to get as good as accuracy as possible shooting in what may be considered 'combat/hunting' conditions, always striving to get as best as accuracy as possible. Do the same with handgun shooting, I'm not a handgun rest shooter, more of a point shooter, double taps, combat, tin can shooter vs paper puncher. Guess I got used to that during my 21 yr LEO career. Thanks for all the info. :)

This is the best I could find at the moment.
The only other suggestion is to check Midway and Midsouth regularly for blem bullet sales. They usually go fast when they crop up. Buy as many as you can stand, they're not getting any cheaper.

30 Caliber .308 Diameter 168 Grain Boat Tail Hollow Point Match 500 Count by Hornady

Try unammo.com. I got some Magtech 150 FMJBT's to use in my M14 and Spanish Mauser.
2K for $260 shipped or $.13 ea. Hope you missed the ice last night. Just missed me here in W'loo.

TankerDon-Thanks for the info, checked out the site and the bullets you mentioned. Thirteen cents per bullet is a great price. Have you had the chance to load any yet and shoot for reliability/accuracy? If you've had good luck with them, they'd be the 'bees-knees' for the style of shooting I do at a price cheaper than the Hornady's.
Nope, didn't miss the ice up here north of ya. Live near the confluence of the Shell Rock and Winnebago Rivers. Everything all iced over, even my gravel road was a sheet of ice, still is. County blacktops were covered, preventing any safe travel, major highways were passable, but barely. All schools in area closed for the 2nd day. Sun suppose to be out tomorrow melting a lot of it. Thanks again for the site-let me know if you've had good results with them. We're one day closer to spring than we were yesterday. Der Jagar

I'm a fair weather shooter and it's just not warm enough for me. I also hate chasing brass in the snow lol!
I had 9pc. of milsurp brass left when the bullets got here, and loaded them up over 37g of H335. I've got cabin fever bad. The M14 is new, and also picked up a new M16A2 clone this winter. I need to get out and run them both in.
Sorry to hear about the ice. Been there too many times and it sucks.

Are the Magtech bullets the same approx. length as Hornady's 150g (being if you've used them or have any on hand). They look similar.

I'll measure one when I get home from work and post up here.

I've used the Hornady FMJ bullet. The cannelure is more appropriate to duplicating M80 ball in 7.62 NATO. I have often wondered why someone did not make an FMJ bullet similar to the M25 tracer. It has two cannelures, one appropriate to caliber .30 and the other for 7.62. Anyway, seating out has been my solution in coaxing a little more accuracy out of the Hornady bullet in cal. .30 and the Lee factory crimp die. IMI used to make a true M2 ball bullet but I have not seen any in years. Also, when pulled M2 bullets were available loading those in my M1 gave me better results than the Hornady 150 grain FMJ-BT, even when seated out. I do not know why. I wonder if it is akin to the dislike for boattails that I see in moderately worn .303's? There is just no way to be certain if what my notes seem to tell applies to any rifle other than mine, but duplicating service ammunition and getting it to shoot really well too has mostly eluded me.

http://www.polygunbag.com/Images/.30...TipsBigger.jpg

You might try Champions Choice out of Murfreesboro. The last time I got M2 ball from them was at Camp Perry and they ran $80 for 500 that was a few years ago. They also cover powder and primers. Or there is MidSouth in Clarksville Tenn.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Agreed, I once weighed 600 FMJs to find 55 that were correctish in weight. I loaded them carefully and only got pieplate accuracy. I then used some soft point bullets that were just thrown together with average care and they grouped on top of each other. They far outshot the FMJ...

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Jim--

I agree. I made the mistake of buying M80 surplus ball bullets thinking they weight the same. When I started to check the weights. The weights varied from 145 grains to 150.2 grains in a batch of 1,000 bullets. When I researched why the wide variation? It turns out, that at least the US Military spec allows for this variation in weights to make the bullets dispersion better in the MGs. Given my time to weight the bullets it was not worth the trouble. After the that I bulked by commercial bullets, Since I use my ammo in some belt-feds. I factory crimp all of ammo that will be used in a semi-auto except my match stuff.

--fjruple

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Originally Posted by fjruple

to make the bullets dispersion better in the MGs.

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That's pretty funny...they actually came up with a reason for them to be so far out of whack... I know ours are made by a company that's made our ammo for over a century, and that's the best they can do.

I grabbed 5 of the Magtech's, and they varied .0095 on OAL, and .0135 base to ogive. Not exactly SMK consistent but at 13¢ a whack I'm not complaining. When I get my powder load figured out I'll load a batch sorted by length and see if the groups tighten up.

In reply to Jagers question about crimping, I load either Sierra or Hornady 168 grn HPBTs or el cheapo 147 grns FMJs. I never bother with a crimp.
The results with Sierra 168 grainers sat on 48 grns of Vihtavouri 140 with a COL of 84.30 mm looks like this at 100 mtrs, 4 shots in around 1" and the 5th thrown off to the left:

Ref TankerDon's Magtech measurements, I checked 10 Hornady 150 gr FMJ-BT .308 bullets and found that all ten were remarkable close.
The OAL=1.123" with a +- of .001-.002.
Length from base to cannelure= .389" (+-.001-.002).
Length base to Ogive=.518" (+-.001)
BT base diameter=.272" (+-.001-.002)
Bearing Length=.394" (+-.002-.003)
Bullet Diameter=.308" (no variation)

Comparing Tanker's Magtech's with the Hornady's from what he listed, the Magtech's were approx. .04" average longer (OAL) and .04" longer base to ogive. My measurements may vary a tiny bit from true on some of the listings as getting the caliper true on something like base to ogive was a little touchy, but it gives a fair view of it. The 0.04" difference in his two measurements and mine is approx the difference I noticed with the PPU factory ammo I have when comparing it with the reloads I did and seating the Hornady in the cannelure. That 0.04" difference would bring the COL using the Magtech's closer to most of the recommended COL's I've seen for 06 ammo in the Garand. The .13 cent price if they prove accurate look like a good deal vs the cheapest I've seen Hornadys running around .19-.20 cents a bullet. **Of course I could be wetter than a river carp in all of what I'm writing!:ugh:

As I penned earlier, I'm not looking for match accuracy, won't get it due to the style of shooting I do, but will strive for the best possible. Will take match accuracy if it comes, but won't toss the Garand away if I don't get it. Referring back to the Hornady's, I've read as 'oldtanker' mentioned, the Hornady 150 gr fmj's were designed more for use in 7.62 (.308) M14 rifle than the Garand, but will work in the 06, but may need to be seated under the cannelure. Still the 150 gr Hornadys are cheaper than any of the 155-168 grain offerings I've seen. Thanks TankerDon for your report.:)

Are these Hornady bullets you guys have been talking about, the #3037's? I have a few of those on hand, but haven't loaded any for several years. I took a look at the data for loads I made for a WWII '03 Remington and the overall length is 3.185" - they worked OK for plinking. These were crimped in the groove with the Lee die. I just compared the OAL to LC M2 Ball and see about .150" difference. About a year ago, I bought some bulk 146g FN FAL bullets for 10 cents each, thinking of using them for .30-06. They measured real close on size and weight, but I ended up selling them. Have any of you guys ever tried those for your '03's or M1's? I found this thread very informative, and now know the reason why these Hornady bullets seem to be on the short side for loading .30-06! - Bob

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Originally Posted by USGI

Are these Hornady bullets you guys have been talking about, the #3037's? - Bob

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Yes they are. Before I did all of my "wanna-be ballistic engineer" measurements, just looking at Hornady's 30 cal 150g fmj, I thought they looked like very good quality bullets. Of Course what-da-ya expect from Hornady. Over the years I've seen some not so good looking off brand (made in ???) bullets being 'hawked' at guns shows and flea markets. I'll do some paper punchin with the 06 Garand Hornady rds I've loaded and see how they do and load some up seating the #3037's out a tad and see how they do. TankerDon's Magtech's look like they may be the ticket for the longer COL vs the Hornadys. Some of the other higher weight 30 caliber offerings from the bullet producers will work, but they can't match the price of the 3037's or the Magtech's.

One has to remember that the 150 class BT bullets are not made for the 30-06 but are made for the 308. The USGI rifles and most commercial rifles made for the 30-06 have a rate of twist of 1 in 10 inches. This is why the BY bullets do not shoot as tight in say an M1. Now the M14 and again most commercial rifles in 308 have a twist rate of 1 in 12 inches which will stabilize the 150 BT bullets just fine.

Bruce--If this Hornady 150g fmj-bt I've been referring to was a 150 g flat base would that make a difference. The amount of bearing surface lost on the bullet for the boattail that could engage the bore average's around 0.120" on the 3037. Would this help in stabilizing the bullet? I've read conflicting writings some say the original M1 Garand bullet was a 150g bullet. If so was it a flat base vs a boat tail? Curious, Hornady in their newest reload book has a seperate section for loading the 30/06 in Garands and list the #3037 150g fmj bullet we've been discussing. They don't say anything about not really being designed for the 06 in a Garand---but they are in the business to sell bullets.

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Originally Posted by Der Jagar

If so was it a flat base vs a boat tail?

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If you pull bullets from older .30 cal you find a spitzer. I had a couple thousand that were pulled from U.S. issue drill rounds and tumbled, they were all spitzer and shot like they should. They also shot out of everything .30 cal bore we had... I used to shoot more 165 gr spitzer out of the .30 cal rifles and it was magic by comparison.

As can be seen in this current listing from Grafs.com, the bullet being discussed in this thread is close in form to the GI bullet for the 7.62 NATO M80 Ball cartridge shown below it. There do appear to be significant differences in ogive, bearing, and cannelure location.


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...02/72316-1.jpg
HORNADY 30c(.308) 150gr FMJBT BULLET 200/BX $40.99
In Stock
Item #: HRN3037BOX $0.20 per round

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2/548909-1.jpg
Pulled M80 bullet listed discontinued at MidwayUSA

Many years ago, I bought a large quantity of new Winchester-brand M80 bullets. Their jackets are mild steel plated with a high-copper plating (probably gilding metal). They are OK for plinking in various .30/7.62 military barrels with groove diameter not greater than .309", but horrible in larger ones. Definitely not match-grade.

The problem with short-bearing BT's is often a tendency to yaw in the throat and engrave off-axis. Rough sketch here exaggerates this effect -

http://www.milsurps.com/images/impor.../2unulu9-1.jpg

The 150 gr. flat based bullet goes back to WW1 time frame. During the 1920's the military decided that they needed a heavier bullet for use in the machineguns as was the thinking in Europe at that time. So they came out with the Bullet M1. 173 grs. Then along comes Garand and his new rifle which the military likes. But it's in 7mm and not 30-06 which Douglas MacArthur didn't like so he had the rifle redesigned for use with the 30-06. But it did not do well with the heavier bullet as the pressure curve was wrong so they went back to the 150 gr. flat base and IMR 4895 became the powder for the 30-06. This became the M2 round that became the standard for WW2 and beyond.

Der Jagr, when I bought the Hornady measuring gauges I also got the OAL gauge to set bullet jump to the lands. Although I don't have anything in 30-06 yet, I picked up the case for that caliber as my buddy picked up a nice '03 Rock Island and is starting to load of it. If it would help and your ever down this way feel free to stop by and do some measuring and grab a sample batch of these Magtech's for a comparison test against the Hornady's.

TankerDon: Sounds good-thanks. I do get in your area quite often. Have a daughter not to far north of ya and one to the south. Stop in at Bobs Guitar and Blains Fleet in Cedar Falls once in a while. I'm only about an hour drive of your 10-20. I'll PM ya my tele # when I plan to make a trip and if ya wanna pbx me we can set a meet. Thank you- Der Jagar (that handle in English goes back some 47 years ago given to me on a raccoon hunt by a first time hunter that was with my hunting group that was astounded by a difficult 22 rifle shot on a raccoon between the eyes):eek::):clap:

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Originally Posted by Der Jagar

a difficult 22 rifle shot on a raccoon between the eyes

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I used to hunt them when I was a kid back in southern Ontario Canada...and those shots were mandatory by the licence holder.

Yet more handloads for my Garand, this time 150 grn FMJs sat on 48.0 and 48.5 grns of N140.
All the bullets were seated to the bottom of the cannelure and not crimped. The 48 grn loads spread all over the place, the 48.5 loads were better. Next time I'll try 49.0 and 49.5 grns.
Below is the result for the 48.5 grns. The targets are full of 22 cal holes as I reckon I can use targets from 22 shooting for larger calibres later.

A well set up M1 should be able to shoot like this at 100yds with well prepared handloads. I realize everyone wants to stretch their reloading budget by buying cheap bullets, but if accuracy is a goal, you really need to use better bullets than FMJ.

This rifle has not been accurized with glass bedding or any of the procedures used on NM M1's. It has however been tuned to be legal for CMP Garand matches. There are two threads in this sub forum on this, one to tune the trigger, and one for the rest of the rifle. Everything in them is within the ability of the moderately skilled gun tinkerer.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../df1HtbW-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by Bruce McAskill

The 150 gr. flat based bullet goes back to WW1 time frame. During the 1920's the military decided that they needed a heavier bullet for use in the machineguns as was the thinking in Europe at that time. So they came out with the Bullet M1. 173 grs. Then along comes Garand and his new rifle which the military likes. But it's in 7mm and not 30-06 which Douglas MacArthur didn't like so he had the rifle redesigned for use with the 30-06. But it did not do well with the heavier bullet as the pressure curve was wrong so they went back to the 150 gr. flat base and IMR 4895 became the powder for the 30-06. This became the M2 round that became the standard for WW2 and beyond.

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Bruce, sorry to disagree in part with this.
You are correct in that M1906 ammunition with the 150gr. cupro nickle bullet was issue during WW1. As long range machine gunnery was a prominent thing in The Great War, the Ordnance Dept. designed the 173gr. bullet in the early 20's to equal the French and British boat tail ammo in its ability to achieve greater range for long range machine gun barrages that proved essential in that war. This was designated as "Ball M1" The M1 rifle was designed to fire this ammunition from the beginning as this was the issue ammo at the time of the M1's adoption. M2 Ball with the same bullet as used in WW1, just copper jacketed was adopted to mitigate the issue of units with limited range facilities. The Ball M1 ammo had a max range of 5500 yds. and it was escaping the impact area of shorter NG ranges.
The M1 can easily handle the 173gr. bullet. This is evidenced by the fact that M72 National Match ammo is loaded with this exact same bullet. If you went to Camp Perry back in the day, this is what you were issued.
MacArthur was Chief of Staff at the time. He foresaw that WW2 was coming and did not think that having a rifle that took different ammo than the MG was a good thing for the small ballistic advantage offered by the 7mm.
This and more is documented in Hatcher's Book of the M1.