Proper Way To Retract The Carbine Bolt

In the post 'Unusual WWII Photo' you'll see we get a bit off topic, when discussing the proper way to retract the Op slide/bolt.

We touched on What Is The Proper Way- to charge the carbines bolt after seeing this picture put up by JimF4M1's. Picture is from TB 23-7-1 March 1942.
Note the picture shows the palm up while pulling back:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...pr6vmpc8-1.jpg

And somewhere I seen or read that this was the "Proper Way', because my next trip out I tried and didn't care for this method. I thought it may have been in the video... linked below, but it shows Palm Down straight pullback using thumb and index finger:

Cal .30 M1 Carbine (1943 WWII U.S. Training Film)
This video is an official U.S. Army training film.
TF9 1206 1943

https://www.milsurps.com/content.php...-Training-Film)

Now after reading FM 23-7 May 20, 1942, LINK BELOW:
I find it also states using the Palm Down Thumb and Index finger to pull the Op Slide back.
EXCEPT: in section VI page 23 it says:
b. Procedure.-(1) Carbine fails to fire.-With the right
hand palm up, use the little finger to pull the operating slide
to the rear. Release the operating rod, and if the operating
slide goes fully home, aim and fire. To avoid injury in case
of hangfire, the hand is so held that no part of the palm or
wrist can be struck by the operating slide in its rapid rearward
movement.

Also interesting is Section 15, on page 15-16.
Cleaning after firing:
The bores of all carbines must be thoroughly cleaned by the evening of the day on which they were fired. They should be cleaned in the same manner for the
next three days. CAUTION: Under no circumstances will
metal fouling solution be used in the carbine.
a.-Cleaning immediately after firing, or as soon as possible.
For this purpose water must be used; warm water is
good, but warm, soapy water is better. Hold the carbine
bottom side up, so that no water will enter the gas port.
Run several wet patches through the bore..... etc..

http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...237/FM23-7.pdf

A Field Manual from May 1942 calling for 3 days of washing your barrel out with Hot Soapy Water??

Input anyone?

Charlie-Painter777

PS: Anyone notice the Type II Barrel Band on the M2 Carbine in the 1943 Dated Ordnance movie?
https://www.milsurps.com/content.php...-Training-Film)

No particular input on the cleaning but I would just like to say that I use the palm down method but I certainly don’t use my forefinger AND thumb.
The Carbine has such a light recoil spring and short action, it’s pretty simple to just sling the bolt back with your forefinger.
Even in the case of a slamfire, no body parts would be in the way with this method.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rcathey

Even in the case of a slamfire, no body parts would be in the way with this method.

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Agree, and surely no more in the way than if one used the little finger. I don't get it.

I've read that before about the (3) cleanings with hot soapy water, and just figured that it might be something that was carried over from TB's covering other rifles that used corrosive ammo. Maybe it was recommended procedure for the others, and wouldn't hurt anything on the carbine. I don't have TB's for anything other than the carbine, so that's just a guess. My take on the "palm up" thing goes along with Dave HH's post in the other thread. If you have a FTF, you don't want to risk having the handle catch your thumb if the round goes off. I charge mine with my index finger too, but believe my thumb would still be "in the way" if the bolt suddenly flew back. I've only had one FTF (Wolf) and waited at least 30 seconds before doing anything. Next time I have one, I'm going to go with "palm up." My brother had a FTF with some Tula, and there was a bunch of smoke and fizzling. We both thought WTH, and he waited until it went quiet before pulling the bolt back. We found the cartridge had the primer installed edgewise! Still went off though, just had all the smoke and gas come out around the bolt face - the bullet was still firmly in place. - Bob

There are a lot of discrepancies or shall we say, bum information in the manual. It says that the piston and nut should be removed as part of the cleaning process. The cleaning is discussed as above, and not needed. It also says that all muzzle worn carbines are to be counterbored to get to good rifling. How many are? 2% maybe? It also says that every carbine with any visual obstruction to reading the serial# has to have the number duplicated at the front of the receiver. how many really are? 10% maybe? Also the safety has to be changed to the rotary type yet there are thousands of late ones that skipped that part. They'll have a type 3 band and type 2-3 sight but the push safety is still in place.

The piston and its nut should never be removed as part of the cleaning process. Requires a special tool and replacement of the itty-bitty, wee, tiny, small gas piston nut. (Both of which would be easily lost by inexperienced troopies.) The gas piston was never intended to be user maintained. The gas system is supposedly self-cleaning due to it's location. Kind of makes you wonder who wrote that TM.
A slam fire doesn't happen with properly loaded ammo. Doesn't happen with issue ammo either. A slam fire is caused by improperly hand loaded ammo. Usually high primers. And are not caused by the rifle.
A hang fire is not a slam fire either. A hang fire is also defective ammo.
Oh and it's with one's right hand held flat and slapped backwards against the op handle with the Carbine held against one's shoulder ready to shoot. When one shoots to correct left handedness. Not from one's waist as demonstrated in the TM picture.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by painter777

after reading FM 23-7 May 20, 1942

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Being this is so early,
Makes you wonder if this isn't just a 'Template' that is tweaked later on after......... I'll say: more experience was gathered from the newly introduced M1 carbine.

When I read TM 9-1276 from 1947
Page 36-
Rifle bore cleaner is the suggested method for bore cleaning.
But if not available the bore may be cleaned
with a solution of
1/4 pound of castile soap or issue soap shaved into
1 gallon of hot water, or a solution of
1 1/2-tablespoonfuls of soda ash
to each pint of hot water.

Seems TM 9-1276 is my most often used reference:
http://www.90thidpg.us/Reference/Man...-1276_1947.pdf



Lessons learned with more experience, I'll assume.

Dave the picture is dated March 1942 and at that time the projected production of the trigger housing was to have a built in castle nut wrench. This was dropped shortly after that was published as the military realized if the primers were non corrosive then there would be little or no build up in the gas cylinder with fouling. And the clumsy GI would not be loosing a castle nut or piston if they were taking it apart to clean it. Clearer heads prevailed.

Pistons were made from stainless steel (only part on the whole carbine), as to prevent any corrosion. If the nut or the inside of the piston chamber were to rust due to environmental factors, at least the piston still have a good chance of functioning during firing.

It is very easy to cross thread the piston nut during installation. I would think this would have been as much as a concern as losing it in the field.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by painter777

PS: Anyone notice the Type II Barrel Band on the M2 Carbine in the 1943 Dated Ordnance movie?
https://www.milsurps.com/content.php...-Training-Film)

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I believe the Title with 1943 is in error. Authorization to go ahead with testing the select fire was i believe June 1944 and subsequently done on "experimental" models. Think testing was September or October. Close call as to the film being 1944 or 1945. Take a look at the selector switch, not a production switch.

*EDIT* to add FM 21-7 lists it as 1945 with a running time of 15 minutes

The 'palm up' method is correct for any long gun with a charging handle on the side (M1 Rifle, AK47, etc.). The reason is clearly listed in the opening post so I can't see how anybody 'disagrees' or 'doesn't get it'. I guess if you never contemplated what it would be like in combat to be in a fire fight and have a stoppage of unknown cause - all you want is to rack that slide and hopefully resume firing - you forget your training and grab it the wrong way, when the hang-fire goes off and the slide hits the web between the thumb and forefinger and dislocates the thumb - well, that wouldn't be good. So to this day I rack the charging handle with the palm up for that reason.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruce McAskill

Dave the picture is dated March 1942 and at that time the projected production of the trigger housing was to have a built in castle nut wrench. This was dropped shortly after that was published as the military realized if the primers were non corrosive then there would be little or no build up in the gas cylinder with fouling. And the clumsy GI would not be loosing a castle nut or piston if they were taking it apart to clean it. Clearer heads prevailed.

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I was simply pointing out the discrepancies in manuals probably from excerpting info from this one and that one. I would imagine that the original wrench on the trigger housing would have doubled the cost of that part?
D