It's estimated that 1.5 million were left at Wars end in 1975.
American Rifleman Story: American Rifleman | The M1 Carbine in Vietnam
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It's estimated that 1.5 million were left at Wars end in 1975.
American Rifleman Story: American Rifleman | The M1 Carbine in Vietnam
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Can you picture what would happen to the price of a carbine if only half of these came back?
Any estimates on the M1/M2 %s?
Nothing in the article on M1 vs M2.
I recall seeing pictures long ago with Arms dumps full of rusty remnants.
Now probably made in to Prius.
OT,
But seen this today about Chemical weapons dumped at sea:
Chemical Weapon Munitions Dumped at Sea: An Interactive Map | James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies
Well thats just a dandy situation thats been left to coming generations how many Italian fisherman have really been affected by dragging the dumped CW munitions onto their boats one wonders why they could not incinerate at high temperatures in a closed circuit furnace surely they exist!
Thanks for the post Charlie.
We had two M2's on our boat during my three tours. And all I saw in the field were M2's as well. Not saying there wasn't some M1's around, but I didn't see any. Also quite a few M3 Grease guns.
Could be mistaken but those appear to be leather handled M4 bayonets. I did not expect post-Korea issue bayonets to still be leather handled. But I guess they must have used them.
Sounds a lot more expensive than pushing it off the side of a boat. It’s government spending 101: spend twice the amount you should on things you don’t need and half the amount you should on things you do.Quote:
Originally Posted by CINDERS
Very cool link though. It’s interesting to see how, for the most part, they didn’t even make much of an effort to get far away from land.
Charlie so what do you think of this article? I myself think there is a bit of BS in it. According to the last figure from the MAP's program I saw there was not 1.5 million carbines in Vietnam but 165,000 sent there as aid. The South Koreans got the lions share of carbines and that is placed at over 600,000 of them still there from what MAP's states.
Wondered myself Bruce,Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce McAskill
Been waiting for someone to question it.
Article states:
The M1 Carbine was introduced into Vietnam by French troops during the late 1940s in their war with the communist Viet Minh forces. A large number of M1 carbines were captured and used by Viet Minh troops. After the First Indochina War ended in July 1954, M1 carbines filtered from the North into the hands of the developing Viet Cong guerrilla forces.
So just how many did the French bring in ?
Next:
Beginning in 1956, U.S. military advisors brought M1 carbines to South Vietnam, and soon they were being issued to ARVN Marines and Rangers. Later, the carbines were also issued to the South Vietnamese National Police, as well as their Regional and Popular Forces and the Kit Carson Scouts.
With all the hype trying to get Garands and Carbines from any country that has used them for the starved US market.....
IMO it's Fake News, but lays out an article that has a great shot at drawing attention... which equals an easy sale and Pay Day for the writer Tom Laemlein. Who BTW refers to no documentation unless I missed it.........
Or if he's running with this statement from Larry Ruth:
Carbine expert Larry Ruth estimates that there were approximately 1.5 million of them left behind in Vietnam at the war’s end in 1975.
1.5 million at wars end in 75 ?
Would that number be complete Carbines ?
Or does it factor in battle damaged and or purposely destroyed weapons.
6,1+ mil built for WWII ....... 1,5 mil left after the Vietnam War ends in 75.... so we'd have close to 25% of total production left in Vietnam in 1975 ?
I don't believe it.......... Only way to explain it IMO is if they've added a few extra zero's by mistake as in TYPO ?
+1 Bruce :cheers:
Good to see your still on the Wagon !!
-and from what I remember back in 1971... any remaining carbines from Vietnam would give a whole new meaning to the word "funky".... If there were any real value there you can bet that government would be moving mountains to get them on the market and gone... Wonder why I've never seen any speculation on M-16's left behind...
Pulled out my copy of the US aid to southeast Asia and here are the official supplies sent over:
Vietnam: 1950 to 1974 m1/M2 Carbines: 794,094
Laos: 1950 to 1975 M1/M2 Carbines: 74,587
Cambodia: 1950 to 1975 M1/M2 Carbines: 116,668
Total Southeast Asia: 985,349
But, a lot of the rifles were written off (destroyed lost in battle captured) between 1950 and 1975. The number of actual operational rifles officially on the books left behind in Cambodia and Vietnam in 1975, including M1903, M1Garand, MAS, AK, M1D and M1/M2 carbines was 961,580.
But the quantity of rifles sent to Vietnam and Cambodia prior to the collapse was:
M1903: ~40,000
M1: 269,248,
MAS/AK: 6,405
M1/M2 carbines: 910,762
or 1,226,415 rifles, of which 961,580 were still on the books as of April 1975. An overall survival rate of 78% in a 25 year period. Not bad considering the climate and the 20 year war.
So a realistic figure is likely no more than 78% of the 985,349 rifles still exist, or 772,570 carbines left if one includes Laos, 710,394 if you exclude Laos. It is my understating Los is a client sate of Vietnam, so I have no idea if this is valid or not of the availability for sale.
Now when Cambodia underwent UN oversight post 1981, after Vietnam pulled out, the UN destroyed all the arms they could get their hands on. So while a small number might have survived, it is almost sure that the vast majority of the Cambodia M1/M2 carbines were destroyed in the 1985~1990 period.
Realistically then if we consider Vietnam alone: it is likely that approximately 78% of the 794,094 carbines survived or around 619,393 and would be available for import if the law was changed.
A large number of them were M1 converted to M2, the local Phillly supply base did that wholesale before 1970 it is very likely a lot of these arms would be ineligible to be reimported. Not sure on that as it would depend if the action body was remarked or not. The Philly depot did remark (or so I was told by a chap whose Aunt worked there) the carbines with a 2 overstamped 1, and that most of the post 1966 guns were M2 which would imply around 300~400,000 were M2 carbines. This is a big question mark, as a M2 marked action body cannot be imported.
The biggest issue would be the official ownership. The records indicate they were still US arms, on loan to S. Vietnam. A nation that no longer exists. Would the US allow there import? It is a rather unique situation as in all other cases the US government has been given first rights of taking arms supplied in this manner, and if they do not take the arms can dictate destruction rather than commercial release or transfer to a third party. Which would mean Vietnam would get no money for the disposition unless the US gives them a blanket release to sell on the commercial market.
Vietnam has previously sold riot shotguns (South Vietnam got 60,990 of them, mostly 77E models between 1950 and 1975) to Australia between 1990 and 1996. Those guns were in pretty sad shape, 25 years of storage. The firm that imported them to Vietnam said that the shape was such that though they imported several thousand, 70% of the arms they inspected in Vietnam were beyond saving back between 1990~1996 or 21 to 27 years ago, twice as much time has elapsed since then.
Before that Vietnam sold M1903 and M1903A3 rifles in small to to the Australian market. That was earlier in the 1980s and the condition I do not recall.
So here is a realistic assessment of the possibility of the Vietnam guns coming into the US:
1) The US government has to allow their property to be sold here, for commercial gain by a communist country. I leave the chance of that happening to the reader.
2) Any M2 marked guns have to be excluded that might be up to around 40 % of the total supplied.
3) Of the expected 620,000 arms that were on the books in 1975, likely 70% of them were rust buckets after 21 years, the 22 year hence have likely not improved things any. Notice the 86,000 M1Garands being imported form Philippines stored since around the 1980s had to be treated for termites.
so 620,000 guns X .6 (M1 only) X .3 (30% usable in 19996) yields a likely supply of 111,000 carbines that would be suitable for importation from Vietnam, if step 1 could be overcome.
Fred303,
That gives us a lot to chew on. Thx.
I found that Jim.M has a US Foreign Military Assistance chart for the M1/M2 with very similar numbers... At first glance.
Foreign Military Assistance
Also came across this picture:
Women dressed as Vietcong soldiers parade during celebrations of the 60th anniversary of Vietnam's victory over France at the battle of Dien Bien Phu.
DBP battle was in 1954 (?) If so, 60 years later in 2014 these carbines look pretty nice, but sure they are the exception.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...74687061-1.jpg
The 86,000 M1 rifles form the Philippines rang from awful to really nice, same is likely true with the Vietnamese m1 carbines.
On does not really know, does one? My post was to point out 1.5 million figure is not really correct, given the last 42 years since the war it is likely on a small fraction could be imported. I note the link you showed indicated some might not be US property, which would simplify the import process a great deal and if not on the US inventory for 1975, might indicate the survival rate as much higher than 78%.
With regard to the Dien Bien Phu 60th anniversary photo --- my guess is those carbines have been tarted up solely for parade use. The stocks and metal finish look too new, nice, shiny, and unblemished to have seen any recent service use.
I'd also guess that the North Vietnamese Government wasted no time gathering, cleaning and stockpiling every bit of weapons and kit they could after the fall of Saigon. With that, it's a reasonably safe bet that there is a lot of American weaponry 'being lovingly cared for' in Vietnam even these 63 years on.
I wasn't really considering re-import.
My thoughts were more about the 1,5 mil reported left there in the article.
I must admit I don't get a warm fuzzy feeling knowing 'they' have ANY of these carbines.
---------- Post added at 04:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:49 PM ----------
Some still being used:Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederick303
http://www.milsurps.com/images/impor.../01/orig-1.jpg
Paul S.
The horrid condition of the US supplied shotguns, from 1963 on says otherwise. The Australian importers had this to say, taken from Bruce Canfields 2007 Volume, Combat Shotguns page 157.
Quote:
Shotguns became our main import until the draconian change in gun laws in Australia (..in 1996) But not before we imported thousands of various types. As I had a personal interest in small arms, every inspection and selection session was also a research trip. My armourer and I carefully noted all data we could, even when we were rejecting 70% of potential product. Sad to say, twenty-five years of marginal storage had taken its toll and very rigorous selection was necessary to gain saleable product. Thanks to my log association with Vietnam, our enthusiasm for research was tolerated and was our extreme rejection rates.
Unquote.
There were thousands of captured carbines and many 105 howitzers from the Korean war that were sent from China to N.Vietnam. If I recall, reading Bernard Fall's "Hell in a very Small Place" . The artillery that broke the back of the French at Dien Bien Phu was a gift from chairman Mao. When the 8th Army ran like wet paint from 250,000 PLA, they left a lot of gear behind.
The U.S. left tons and tons of assorted stuff they didn't destroy. Most of it will be in horrible condition after 43 years of sitting in warehouses. Even if in Cosmoline.
"...introduced into Vietnam by French..." The U.S. government dropped 'em during W.W. II. OSS wasn't big in the Pacific(mostly because Dugout Doug didn't want 'em) but they were there.
The U.S. provided France with 269,644 M1 and M2's from W.W. II to 1963. 793,994 M1 and M2 carbines from 1963 to 1973 to the ARVN. Thousands of Carbines left behind in 1954 by the French too.
"...incinerate at high temperatures..." Costs less to heave it over the side. Same as was done with hundreds of aircraft off U.S. carriers after W.W. II.
During the late 60's and early 70's many US bases had orders to take all of the M1 rifles and or carbines and destroy them. I was told on two different bases that truck after truck loaded with carbines were piled up about 6 to 8 feet high and 20 to 30 feet across. Covered with fuel oil and then gasoline on top of that and then set on fire. Burned for two days and then a tank was run over the remains till nothing but a mangled pile of steel was left. I was told this was a general order that went out to all bases in the country.
I remember reading an article about 20 years that the supplied a little over 750,000 M16 rifles of all versions to the South Vietnamese government. After being seized by the "new" Vietnamese government, the new "owners" also used them in their conflict with Cambodia. I also remember seeing another article that the US Government seized a ship load of M16 rifles that the Vietnamese government was trying to sale on the arms market. The US Government considers all weapons provided as aid as still as US Government property. I also remember that a large numbers showed up in El Salvador and Nicaragua rebel caches after having been smuggled from Fidel in Cuba. The serial numbers had been obliterated. Recently the Vietnamese government had been re-manufacturing a number into shorty type M16 rifles.Quote:
Originally Posted by lemaymiami
Believe or not this number only represents a mire fraction of the M16 rifles produced.
Really? Do you have anything else on this one?Quote:
Originally Posted by fjruple
Jim--Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
I have to look for the article. I believe it was in the Small Arms Review or International Defense Journal.
I'd love to find out more about that. Maybe pics of the finished item...or some testimony...Quote:
Originally Posted by fjruple
I've searched some but have had no luck finding anything about the Short versions being made.
But wouldn't doubt it.
Look at how they 'Modified' the M1 carbines they got their hands on.
I wouldn't put anything past them, as crafty as they've proved to be.
That's right, the pics were in one of the late pubs...Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777
Jim-- Still looking for the pictures but I did find this article which I translated from a Vietnamese eb site about the continued use of the US made captured "booty" from the "Republic" and some of its uses since then. This following is just a rough Google translation but is quite interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
The spoils of the Vietnam War are still in use
(Vietnamese Defense) - These are the weapons of Vietnam gained during the resistance war against the United States, many of which have been modified and used by the Vietnamese Army to this day.
Ground weapons
American anti-American weaponry is still used by many people to increase the M41. The M41 bulldog tank, the 1975 booty, suddenly reappeared in the Vietnam Defense Television (VCF) newsletter. It shows the possibility that the People's Army of Vietnam is still limiting the famous light-weight increase produced by the United States from 1950-1960.
However, the booty considered to be the top value was the M113 armored vehicle. Up to the beginning of 1975, there were over 1,500 M113s in the South Vietnamese Army. After the victory in 1975, hundreds of vehicles were put on the armored reinforcements of Vietnam. Around 500 of the M113 armored vehicles are still in use.After participating in the armored forces of Vietnam, M113 has been added by the Vietnam People's Army DKK-106 mm M40 or DKK-75 mm gun K56. Following that, Vietnam replaced the US 50th Browning 50 with the Russian 12.7 mm.
These armored vehicles were launched on a large scale in the 1977-1979 South-West border war, which overwhelmed the role of other armored vehicles built by the Soviet Union and China. Thanks to the M113, the Vietnamese People's Army quickly won over the Khmer Rouge.
According to unofficial information in 2001, Vietnam has undergone extensive repairs and small upgrades with about 80 M113 armored vehicles. The upgrades and repairs were made with a number of components purchased from commercial sources and utilized parts obtained during the Vietnam War. At present, M113 is still the main force in the armored - armored forces of Vietnam.
In addition to the armored vehicles mentioned above, the troop of the Vietnamese army also has guns M114-155mm, guns M2A1 105mm. These weapons continue to be modernized to the present day is still the ground-level ground gun campaign of the military forces of Vietnam.
There are also large numbers of M16, AR-15, M79, and other heavy machine guns.
The M16 forward rifle was also modernized for continued use. It is interesting that a strange variant of the M16 was "Vietnamized" with the name M18 appeared in the staff of the special forces and the Vietnam Coast Guard at the ceremony to celebrate the 1000th anniversary of Thang Long Long - Hanoi on 10/10/2010. Vietnam has also successfully produced the M79 grenade launcher, which has created an active supply of troops.
Changes in the Vietnam War content
Armored fighting vehicles M113.
Air force - warships
In addition to the M113 armored car, increased by the M41, the Vietnamese military also seized a number of other modern weapons and combat vehicles from the United States, including the UH-1 transport helicopter helicopters, transport helicopters CH-47, C-130 transport aircraft, LST-1 demilitarized ship, LCU-1466, F-5 fighters, A-37, transport aircraft.
After the US - US normalization of relations, the chances of restoring US arms became clearer. Currently, UH-1 helicopters are being refitted and modernized with the help of the US, this helicopter is being restored to serve for civil and defense purposes.
US arms were later converted successfully by the Vietnamese army and used as the C-130 transport aircraft developed by Lockheed for the role of carrying troops and cargo.
US aid a few dozen this type of VN, but after 1975, the military of Vietnam only seized 7. The rest, some South Vietnamese soldiers fled the country, some destroyed. In service of the protection of the Spratly Islands after 1975, Vietnamese aviation technicians have improved the C-130 bombing mission.
Pics are available of the M18, which looks like a Colt SMG or 177...some with a can.
Jim--Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
I found this article on their facebook page. Here's a rough Google translation into English. I will also post several photos of the M18, there appears to be two versions, one with a suppressor and one without. Initially the M18 made an appearance at the 1000 year military parade of Vietnam. The M18 was still in their possession on the 45th anniversary (2015) parade of the fall of South Vietnam. Its appears from what I can tell from my limited knowledge of Vietnamese and English as well. The M16 was the primary weapon of the Vietnamese Militia. The refinishing and upgrades appear to be done at K888 depot in Long Binh in the former South Vietnam. As a side note it appears that some of the management got themselves in trouble by leasing out propriety at the depot and another incident of illegal weapons manufacture of what appears to be .22LR revolvers. Enjoy!! I do apologize to the original poster of this thread for hi-jacking his thread.
VIETNAM MILITARY PRODUCTION OF M-16?
"Obtaining enemy weapons" is a guideline throughout the Vietnamese military art. Using this motto, we have improved many of our weapons of mass destruction, making them a means of serving the war of national liberation and protection of sovereignty.
During the Vietnam War, the AR-15 and M16 modified versions became the standard weapon of the US Army and the Republic of Vietnam (VNCH). So, after the war, many AR-15s and M16s were recovered by the Vietnam People's Army, with estimates estimated at millions of people. These weapons are now the standard weapon for the militia of South Vietnam.
M16 modified by Colt from the ArmaLite AR-15 gun, is a NATO 5.56 × 45mm gun. Since 1967, the M16 has been a popular weapon of the United States Army and NATO forces. This is the highest number of guns produced in individual submachine guns.
The characteristics of the M16 are quite light (3-4 kg), parts made of steel, alloy, aluminum and hard plastic (fiberglass or polymer). Gantry, loaded from the ballistic feeder with a barrel-shaped locking mechanism.
There are three different series in the M16 production process. The first series: M16 and M16A1, used in the 1960s, fired M193 / M196 (or Remington 223), which could be fully automatic or semi-automatic. Two XM16E1 and M16A1 models were used in Vietnam.
The M16A2 series was used in the 1980s, firing M855 / M856 (Belgian inventor of the FN Minimi), capable of firing individual pellets or firing three series of pellets. The last series was the M16A4, the standard US Marine Corps rifle in the Iraq war. M16A4 and M4 Carbine rifles are gradually replacing the M16A2 which is slightly outdated and less usable. M16A4 and M4 / M4A1 have removable handles for viewfinder, laser target, night vision, grenade launcher and light.
"Vietnamese version" of M16
During the Vietnam War, the AK-47 and M16 did not stop racing for the No. 1 position in the assault rifle category. Each type has different weak points. Although the M16 has faster firing speed, longer range and higher accuracy, the AK-47 is perfectly suited to guerrilla warfare in Vietnam thanks to simplicity, reliability in everything. Harsh conditions and strong power in close range.
One drawback with the naked eye is that the M-16 has a long barrel. To overcome this disadvantage, in the Vietnam War, an improved version of the M-16 was the XM177E2 (formerly known as the Colt 629 Comando, belonging to the CAR-15 family. ) has been specially designed for special forces, with two improvements, mainly adjusting the length and long headlamps, which both function to reduce shock and fire. The specifications of the XM177E2 are similar to those of the M16, except that the shorter barrel length is 292mm compared to the 508mm of the M16, and the gun is also lighter.
XM177E2 was introduced into Vietnam in 1966 as part of the US Army's Test Pilot Program, first equipped for American troops in the United States Military Command (MACV) and a number of units This is a special form of the ARVN. After the testing program ended, with the official name M177E2, this gun was widely available to the ARVN.
After 1975, the People's Army of Vietnam obtained a large number of these. Recognizing the advantages of XM1772, Vietnam has equipped a certain number of special forces for the Coast Guard.
Along with the process of using, the people's army of Vietnam has carried out many major repairs. During the repair process, the gun must be repaired to make many replacement parts. This replacement process has helped Vietnam master the technology of manufacturing M16.
In particular, during the 1000th anniversary of Thang Long - Hanoi, a strange gun model called M18 appeared, attracting great attention for military analysts. Earlier, the M18 was observed for the first time during General Phung Quang Thanh's visit by the Minister of Defense to parade exercises.
Although no official information has confirmed the exact origin of the M18, but based on the short-barrel characteristics, the length of the muzzle and some other characteristics, the M18 was identified to be similar to that of the M18. XM177E2. In many respects, the M18 can be considered a "Vietnamese version" of the M16.
As observable, the M18 is compact in size, which is suitable for combat situations in narrow spaces or in missions requiring soldiers to be flexible in secrecy when approaching targets in response to the task of the task force, the marine police.
In particular, the use of new materials technology (using a variety of light alloys, parts made of synthetic resins), using small size bullets, M18 does not consume the energy of the soldiers on the move.
It can be seen in the hands of the soldiers of the Vietnamese People's Army, arms originating from Russia or America, Western Europe are exploited effectively. The evidence for this is that a series of booty weapons after 1975, which Vietnam obtained after the United States and South Vietnam, all contributed greatly to the defense of the independence and territorial integrity of the country. That is the traditional "cunning, creative" of our Army.
Yes, those were the pics I saw too...