1.5 Mil Carbines Left In Vietnam

[lemaymiami]

-and from what I remember back in 1971... any remaining carbines from Vietnam would give a whole new meaning to the word "funky".... If there were any real value there you can bet that government would be moving mountains to get them on the market and gone... Wonder why I've never seen any speculation on M-16's left behind...

[Frederick303]

Pulled out my copy of the US aid to southeast Asia and here are the official supplies sent over:

Vietnam: 1950 to 1974 m1/M2 Carbines: 794,094
Laos: 1950 to 1975 M1/M2 Carbines: 74,587
Cambodia: 1950 to 1975 M1/M2 Carbines: 116,668

Total Southeast Asia: 985,349

But, a lot of the rifles were written off (destroyed lost in battle captured) between 1950 and 1975. The number of actual operational rifles officially on the books left behind in Cambodia and Vietnam in 1975, including M1903, M1Garand, MAS, AK, M1D and M1/M2 carbines was 961,580.

But the quantity of rifles sent to Vietnam and Cambodia prior to the collapse was:

M1903: ~40,000

M1: 269,248,

MAS/AK: 6,405

M1/M2 carbines: 910,762

or 1,226,415 rifles, of which 961,580 were still on the books as of April 1975. An overall survival rate of 78% in a 25 year period. Not bad considering the climate and the 20 year war.

So a realistic figure is likely no more than 78% of the 985,349 rifles still exist, or 772,570 carbines left if one includes Laos, 710,394 if you exclude Laos. It is my understating Los is a client sate of Vietnam, so I have no idea if this is valid or not of the availability for sale.

Now when Cambodia underwent UN oversight post 1981, after Vietnam pulled out, the UN destroyed all the arms they could get their hands on. So while a small number might have survived, it is almost sure that the vast majority of the Cambodia M1/M2 carbines were destroyed in the 1985~1990 period.

Realistically then if we consider Vietnam alone: it is likely that approximately 78% of the 794,094 carbines survived or around 619,393 and would be available for import if the law was changed.

A large number of them were M1 converted to M2, the local Phillly supply base did that wholesale before 1970 it is very likely a lot of these arms would be ineligible to be reimported. Not sure on that as it would depend if the action body was remarked or not. The Philly depot did remark (or so I was told by a chap whose Aunt worked there) the carbines with a 2 overstamped 1, and that most of the post 1966 guns were M2 which would imply around 300~400,000 were M2 carbines. This is a big question mark, as a M2 marked action body cannot be imported.

The biggest issue would be the official ownership. The records indicate they were still US arms, on loan to S. Vietnam. A nation that no longer exists. Would the US allow there import? It is a rather unique situation as in all other cases the US government has been given first rights of taking arms supplied in this manner, and if they do not take the arms can dictate destruction rather than commercial release or transfer to a third party. Which would mean Vietnam would get no money for the disposition unless the US gives them a blanket release to sell on the commercial market.

Vietnam has previously sold riot shotguns (South Vietnam got 60,990 of them, mostly 77E models between 1950 and 1975) to Australia between 1990 and 1996. Those guns were in pretty sad shape, 25 years of storage. The firm that imported them to Vietnam said that the shape was such that though they imported several thousand, 70% of the arms they inspected in Vietnam were beyond saving back between 1990~1996 or 21 to 27 years ago, twice as much time has elapsed since then.

Before that Vietnam sold M1903 and M1903A3 rifles in small to to the Australian market. That was earlier in the 1980s and the condition I do not recall.

So here is a realistic assessment of the possibility of the Vietnam guns coming into the US:

1) The US government has to allow their property to be sold here, for commercial gain by a communist country. I leave the chance of that happening to the reader.

2) Any M2 marked guns have to be excluded that might be up to around 40 % of the total supplied.

3) Of the expected 620,000 arms that were on the books in 1975, likely 70% of them were rust buckets after 21 years, the 22 year hence have likely not improved things any. Notice the 86,000 M1Garands being imported form Philippines stored since around the 1980s had to be treated for termites.

so 620,000 guns X .6 (M1 only) X .3 (30% usable in 19996) yields a likely supply of 111,000 carbines that would be suitable for importation from Vietnam, if step 1 could be overcome.

[painter777]

Fred303,
That gives us a lot to chew on. Thx.

I found that Jim.M has a US Foreign Military Assistance chart for the M1/M2 with very similar numbers... At first glance.

Foreign Military Assistance

Also came across this picture:
Women dressed as Vietcong soldiers parade during celebrations of the 60th anniversary of Vietnam's victory over France at the battle of Dien Bien Phu.
DBP battle was in 1954 (?) If so, 60 years later in 2014 these carbines look pretty nice, but sure they are the exception.

[Frederick303]

The 86,000 M1 rifles form the Philippines rang from awful to really nice, same is likely true with the Vietnamese m1 carbines.

On does not really know, does one? My post was to point out 1.5 million figure is not really correct, given the last 42 years since the war it is likely on a small fraction could be imported. I note the link you showed indicated some might not be US property, which would simplify the import process a great deal and if not on the US inventory for 1975, might indicate the survival rate as much higher than 78%.

[Paul S.]

With regard to the Dien Bien Phu 60th anniversary photo --- my guess is those carbines have been tarted up solely for parade use. The stocks and metal finish look too new, nice, shiny, and unblemished to have seen any recent service use.


I'd also guess that the North Vietnamese Government wasted no time gathering, cleaning and stockpiling every bit of weapons and kit they could after the fall of Saigon. With that, it's a reasonably safe bet that there is a lot of American weaponry 'being lovingly cared for' in Vietnam even these 63 years on.

[painter777]

I wasn't really considering re-import.
My thoughts were more about the 1,5 mil reported left there in the article.
I must admit I don't get a warm fuzzy feeling knowing 'they' have ANY of these carbines.

---------- Post added at 04:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:49 PM ----------

The 86,000 M1 rifles form the Philippines

Some still being used:

[Frederick303]

Paul S.

The horrid condition of the US supplied shotguns, from 1963 on says otherwise. The Australian importers had this to say, taken from Bruce Canfields 2007 Volume, Combat Shotguns page 157.

Quote:

Shotguns became our main import until the draconian change in gun laws in Australia (..in 1996) But not before we imported thousands of various types. As I had a personal interest in small arms, every inspection and selection session was also a research trip. My armourer and I carefully noted all data we could, even when we were rejecting 70% of potential product. Sad to say, twenty-five years of marginal storage had taken its toll and very rigorous selection was necessary to gain saleable product. Thanks to my log association with Vietnam, our enthusiasm for research was tolerated and was our extreme rejection rates.

Unquote.

[DaveHH]

There were thousands of captured carbines and many 105 howitzers from the Korean war that were sent from China to N.Vietnam. If I recall, reading Bernard Fall's "Hell in a very Small Place" . The artillery that broke the back of the French at Dien Bien Phu was a gift from chairman Mao. When the 8th Army ran like wet paint from 250,000 PLA, they left a lot of gear behind.

[Sunray]

The U.S. left tons and tons of assorted stuff they didn't destroy. Most of it will be in horrible condition after 43 years of sitting in warehouses. Even if in cosmoline.
"...introduced into Vietnam by French..." The U.S. government dropped 'em during W.W. II. OSS wasn't big in the Pacific(mostly because Dugout Doug didn't want 'em) but they were there.
The U.S. provided France with 269,644 M1 and M2's from W.W. II to 1963. 793,994 M1 and M2 carbines from 1963 to 1973 to the ARVN. Thousands of Carbines left behind in 1954 by the French too.
"...incinerate at high temperatures..." Costs less to heave it over the side. Same as was done with hundreds of aircraft off U.S. carriers after W.W. II.

[Bruce McAskill]

During the late 60's and early 70's many US bases had orders to take all of the M1 rifles and or carbines and destroy them. I was told on two different bases that truck after truck loaded with carbines were piled up about 6 to 8 feet high and 20 to 30 feet across. Covered with fuel oil and then gasoline on top of that and then set on fire. Burned for two days and then a tank was run over the remains till nothing but a mangled pile of steel was left. I was told this was a general order that went out to all bases in the country.