Eddystone M1917 Stock Warp Issue

So I have been paying more attention to one of the rifles in my collection, a 1918 production Eddystone M1917. The rifle exhibits good accuracy, but one of the issues I have with it is that I have to have the front sight drifted almost as far as it will go to the left in order to hit the target accurately.

Taking the action out of the stock I now see the issue, with the handguards taken off and the front band removed, the forend drops about 1/8" off the barrel and to the left. This means it is warped and putting pressure on the barrel and causing it to shoot left. With the front band on, the stock falls correctly and I have no bearing between the action and the point at which the barrel contacts the wood at the front of the stock.

Is there any way I can correct this without replacing the stock, which is getting pricey these days?

You could straighten it with steam but the wood has found it's happy place and it will return there in short order. A permanent solution is bedding in a steel rod but that is completely inappropriate to do on a Milsurp. In short, Either live with it or replace the stock.

get a cheap stock that Bubba sporterized to shoot with and keep the original stock for when you display the rifle

I agree with warpig. That's 100 year old wood your dealing with, your not going to change its mind so easily. You can hog out some wood where its contacting the barrel on the side but whenever you replace the front band you will still be putting uneven pressure on the barrel end. You can try steaming it but you may have to do it 100 times for the slightest change.
You can also leave it warped and trim away any wood that is out of line and then build it back up with glass bedding. Remember these barrels are designed for slight upward pressure at the bottom of the barrel in the front band area. Without it the rifle will never deliver full accuracy potential.
My suggestion is to work with what you have unless you want to buy a replacement stock which is a crap shoot. - Bill

Alright, I guess I'll just live with it, the accuracy is good the only issue is that with the front sight drifted over to the left it's easy to get it confused with one of the front sight protector ears.

Try this a master gunsmiths lesson on how to alter the cast of a stock in 3 parts..........
Brownells - Jack Rowe, Master Gunsmith Series, Stock Bending. Part 1 - YouTube

You could do a cut and splice under one of the barrel bands if your daring enough

Hcompton: I've successfully bent a couple of warped stocks using the hot linseed oil technique shown on the video attached by Cinders. It is far superior to steam! First was a badly warped No. 4 forend which remains straight after 3 years. More recently I straightened the tip of the forend on a Finn M24 which was similar to what you're describing. The process is pretty simple but you have to give it enough time to let the heat get into the interior of the wood to avoid cracking it. I found it best to do multiple treatments and straighten it a bit at a time. Also a good plan to have a proper "jig" set up to allow you to bend and hold the piece while hot. I should note that neither of the ones I've done showed discolouration after the treatment.

Ridolpho

The hot linseed oil method sounds like the best bet, although I'll need to set aside some time and work up the courage to light up the torch for this stock.

I'll let you guys know how it goes.

If you use a jig you can use heat lamps to heat the stock and oil - safer in that you can adjust the lamp distance to the oil soaked cloth and not have it catch fire. Heat tends to be more even.

I'm not going to argue with anybody. I'll just say with complete confidence there's no straightening a bowed and twisted piece of lumber with heat and have it be permanent. The defect has always been present and will always be present. What's missing is the proper moisture content. :cheers:

Guys-- Please note that in the Rowe indicated in his video that American black walnut was the toughest to bend using the hot raw linseed oil method. Needless to say the original M1917 stocks were made from American black walnut.

Cheers

--fjruple

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Originally Posted by WarPig1976

I'm not going to argue with anybody. I'll just say with complete confidence there's no straightening a bowed and twisted piece of lumber with heat and have it be permanent. The defect has always been present and will always be present. What's missing is the proper moisture content. :cheers:

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You may well be correct- only time will tell in the case of the ones I've done. I believe if the wood fibers are hot enough they go plastic and permanently deform. The first time I steamed a bow stave to straighten a kink it was amazing how it would bend after the correct temp was reached. Wood bowmakers assume these bends are pretty permanent. Gonna have to check my No.4 again and see how its held up. Regards.

Ridolpho

Well I guess there's no harm in trying, and yes I did see him mention that this would be the most difficult wood to bend.

I am inclined to agree with Warpig's scepticism. Gunstocks that are very old (and I have a couple that are well past 200 years) have reached a natural equilibrium that is effectively permanent. When discussing refurbishment of old guns, it seems that too much attention is paid to the exterior surface - i.e. what you see - and not enough to the interior.

Now those who actually shoot their guns (warning - a bit of sarcasm coming!) may have noticed that the barrel gets not just warm, but if you shoot a competition series, pretty hot.
As a result, the barrel channel is not just dried out, but thoroughly dessicated. The dessication of the inside results in a stress between the moister outside and the drier inside that is probably a major source of the strain that warps a stock that was perfectly straight a century or so ago.

That is why those who have read my posts on refurbishment wil have observed that I advise that the barrel channel, receiver cutout etc. should be liberally soaked with linseed oil. On the outside, you can slobber on tru-oil, tung oil, BLO, whatever you like - it isn't going to penetrate to the inside in my lifetime. What is needed, before doing anything more drastic, is to restore the even moisture content throughout the wood from inside to outside.

The heat treatment shown in the films shots is a drastic way of achieving fast oil penetration in order to bend wood with a fairly thick cross-section. For a barrel channel, this is IMHO too harsh. Just try oiling the channel liberally first, and be patient.

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Originally Posted by Hcompton79

Well I guess there's no harm in trying, and yes I did see him mention that this would be the most difficult wood to bend.

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I believe a lot of the toughest to bend will depend on the condition of the wood. If the stock is oil soaked from years of storage in cosmoline it make be easier to bend. Considering your only other option is to buy another (getting expensive, original) stock. Please let us know how you make out if you are going to try and bend the stock.

Cheers

--fjruple

"...hog out some wood..." Sand with no porkers involved. Best done with layout blue to find where the stock is high, then sand to relieve the spot.

I should add that I have been taking this gun apart over a series of several months, adding raw linseed oil to the inside and outside of the stock. Over this time I have seen no change in the bend in the stock, which is bending down and to the left, away from the barrel. If it was bending upward, a small amount of wood removal could be done.

In this case, I think the best option is going to be attempting the hot linseed oil method, however seeing as the barrel channel is thinner it may be easier to try a heat gun first before resorting to the torch.

I'll post my results after trying this later this week.

I have a Bosch heat gun the 2nd setting on high gives out copious amounts of heat which I reckon is enough to fulfill the intended bending process as per JR tutorial.

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Originally Posted by Sunray

"...hog out some wood..." Sand with no porkers involved. Best done with layout blue to find where the stock is high, then sand to relieve the spot.

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Excuse the heck out of me for using local slang instead of gunsmith jargon. Shame on me for trying to help. I promise to never do something so foolish again.

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Originally Posted by Hcompton79

I should add that I have been taking this gun apart over a series of several months, adding raw linseed oil to the inside and outside of the stock. Over this time I have seen no change in the bend in the stock, which is bending down and to the left, away from the barrel. If it was bending upward, a small amount of wood removal could be done.

In this case, I think the best option is going to be attempting the hot linseed oil method, however seeing as the barrel channel is thinner it may be easier to try a heat gun first before resorting to the torch.

I'll post my results after trying this later this week.

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Be careful- you have to get it hot throughout and the oil-soaked cloth wrapped right around is a good way to do it. If it isn't hot enough on all sides you may crack it. You also must bend it a bit past the desired shape to allow for a bit of elastic springback while it cools and sets in the new shape. Good luck with it!

Ridolpho

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Originally Posted by Ridolpho

may crack it

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:madsmile:

Well, today was the day. I went ahead and strapped the stock down on my bench and wrapped an old towel around the forend. I tied it on with cotton string and made sure it was thoroughly soaked with raw linseed oil. I tried heating it with my hat gun and found that that wasn't cutting it, after about 15min, I could still touch the oiled cloth. So out came the torch and I carefully heated it until it was smoking and very hot.

I applied force and felt it bending, and then hung a 30lb weight on the end of the forend and stripped off the oiled cloth and let it cool for a couple of hours. After I came back I checked it against the action again and unfortunately, no difference. :(

I guess at this point I can resign to live with it, or I can basically do a duffel cut under the rear barrel band and reattach with epoxy and threaded rod at a slightly different angle so that it has proper bearing at the muzzle.

Well it was worth a go and at least you had a crack at it, your second option may be a course of action as you say you can hide the cut under the barrel band.

Just asking those wood workers would you need a thin spacer in there to take up for the lost material from the cut and reshaping or would the slight loss of length not be an issue in the overall scheme of things. TIA

Taking off about 1/8" of wood from the overall length probably wouldn't affect the stocking up or the nose-cap/front barrel band that I can tell as the front band can slide further down the barrel to compensate.

What would be an issue if I were to make the cut under the rear barrel band is that the barrel band has a small retaining pin in the stock to make sure it doesn't move forward under recoil, so either that pin would need to be moved forward slightly to compensate for the lack of wood or a spacer (small piece of thick walnut veneer would probably work) added in.

Fortunately, if I were to cut it under the rear barrel band, there is no lightening cut in that part of the forend there so I would have plenty of material to reattach the two haves together.

Would it be seen as sacrilege to cut up a complete stock or not so as long as the finished work looks the part and performs properly?

"Would it be seen as sacrilege to cut up a complete stock or not so as long as the finished work looks the part and performs properly?"

IMHO there is no problem here. The rifle is not a museum exhibit, but a piece of machinery that is not functioning correctly. It is thus quite acceptable to refurbish it in such a manner that the proper function is achieved, while avoiding unnecessary falsification.

As to the cut, the wood loss will be nothing like 1/8". More like 1/16", and if you use a fine saw like an Exacto modelmakers blade, or one of those superb Japanese pull-saws (my choice for this kind of work), then the wood loss will be less than 1mm - about 1/32". In other words, the length reduction will be so small as to be unnoticeable. And if, as suggested, a sliver of veneer is required to set the pin to the correct position, then there is no net reduction at all.

This thread on making a duffle-cut repair may be helpful:

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread....t+threaded+rod

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Originally Posted by Hcompton79

Well, today was the day. I went ahead and strapped the stock down on my bench and wrapped an old towel around the forend. I tied it on with cotton string and made sure it was thoroughly soaked with raw linseed oil. I tried heating it with my hat gun and found that that wasn't cutting it, after about 15min, I could still touch the oiled cloth. So out came the torch and I carefully heated it until it was smoking and very hot.

I applied force and felt it bending, and then hung a 30lb weight on the end of the forend and stripped off the oiled cloth and let it cool for a couple of hours. After I came back I checked it against the action again and unfortunately, no difference. :(

I guess at this point I can resign to live with it, or I can basically do a duffel cut under the rear barrel band and reattach with epoxy and threaded rod at a slightly different angle so that it has proper bearing at the muzzle.

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That's too bad it didn't work. I know on the two I've had success with I had to go through many lengthy burn/heat cycles to get the bend I needed. Even using the torch as the main heat source I would say I continued with the burning/ boiling of the oil for well over one-half hour (with several pauses for new oil) before attempting the bend. In hindsight I wish I had practiced with an old junk forend to really get a feel for the heat required for a permanent bend. Yesterday I pulled the No.4 that I bent 3 years ago and was happy to see it has remained true with the barrel dead center and the correct up-pressure. The technique can work.

Ridolpho

Leave it be, what are you going to fix by chopping the front off?
It’s not a duffle cut. You’re going to cause other problems by trying to correct the bow and or twist by cutting the forend off. Blade kerf is the least of the problems.
You have to account for the wedge of wood that has to be removed to bring the tip up. The stock will take on a V shape.....it goes on and on.
It’s a can of worms, hear me now, believe me later.....

Well, I went ahead and cut the stock, and the end result came out perfectly.

I made sure to take out as little wood as possible with the cut and then trued up the cut ends to make them as square as possible. I went ahead and fabricated a shim, as I realized in addition to the barrel band retaining pin moving, taking a bit of wood off the forend could cause issues with the attachment of a bayonet. I modified the thickness of the shim in order to change the angle and thus where the tip of the stock touches the barrel.

I reattached everything with acraglas and drilled out and installed a several inch length of 1/4-20 threaded rod for strength. I used the barreled action as a jig to hold everything together while the epoxy set up, with a shim under the chamber end of the barrel to make the muzzle end a bit higher so that when reassembled normally the stock will put up pressure on the barrel.

After letting it setup overnight under the heat of a lamp, everything lines up correctly now . I did have to remove a small bit of wood from the inside of the forend on the right side near where the joint was made, and now there is no contact from the action to the muzzle except for at the tip where I probably have 3-4lb of pressure pushing up on the barrel, and its centered.

The joint is barely noticeable and will be hidden under the barrel band anyway:Attachment 96440

Now I do have one question, with the rifle set up now, when the nose cap/front barrel band is on the stock it pulls the barrel firmly against the forend and there is no play. Is this how these rifles are designed to be set up or should it be more like a no.4 lee enfield where there is a bit of play in the barrel but it comes to rest against the top of the stock due to the up pressure?

Awesome results! Thanks for sharing. I’ve been following this thread and it’s great to see the happy ending!

You'll have to forgive me, but I don't see how you corrected anything. In your original post you said the forearm was drooping an 1/8" down and to the left. I don't see how that was corrected from your photo. I just see a shim that takes up about the kerf of a blade, basically a zero sum game.

To bring the frontend up you'd have zero gap at the top of your cut and you'd need at least 1/8" at the bottom because you used a shim and the two halves where squared up. Otherwise you lengthened the stock. No way around the rails "the barrel channel sides" taking on a V shape in that case. How did you address the leftward twist?
Unless the problem wasn't as severe as stated then the slop in your joint was enough to correct any perceived issue you had.
Like I said forgive me, a warped/twisted stock can't be fixed this way without effecting other parts and functions of the stock.

Perhaps I overstated the issue initially, but basically it seemed the front end of the forend seemed to cant slightly downward and to the left with the axis of the angle being right about near the rear barrel band.

The shim is slightly thicker near the bottom of the stock and on the left hand side, but not by much, a small change at that point was enough to correct the swing of the muzzle end to bring it to the point desired. I would think if you were to have a 1/8" difference in thickness near the middle of the forend this would create a much steeper angle and would pull the forend at least an inch upwards.

I probably should have taken before and after photos, but the barrel bands make for an unphotogenic muzzle end picture, and I didn't want to take off the front sight protector to get them off.

The proof is in the pudding though, whereas previously with the handguards and muzzle cap off the stock tip would only touch the barrel as shown on the below diagram, it now contacts the bottom with some upwards pressure uniformly and without interference from the nose cap. As long as that happens, and there is no contact between the receiver and that bearing point, it shouldn't really matter whether the stock has now taken on a small-v bend (although I would say the angle it was at was previously worse as there was a clear gap between the upper and lower front hand guard without the muzzle cap on.)

Attachment 96451

A good result the real test will be 50-100 rounds down range to see how the set up likes the jarring of firing & recoil forces, nice job.

No, I don't think we were on the same page. It's your's and what's done is done.
Look on the bright side, you've created the proof some poor schmuck 100yrs from now will use to prove Doughboy's smuggled rifles home in duffle bags.

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Originally Posted by Hcompton79

Perhaps I overstated the issue initially, but basically it seemed the front end of the forend seemed to cant slightly downward and to the left with the axis of the angle being right about near the rear barrel band.

The shim is slightly thicker near the bottom of the stock and on the left hand side, but not by much, a small change at that point was enough to correct the swing of the muzzle end to bring it to the point desired. I would think if you were to have a 1/8" difference in thickness near the middle of the forend this would create a much steeper angle and would pull the forend at least an inch upwards.

I probably should have taken before and after photos, but the barrel bands make for an unphotogenic muzzle end picture, and I didn't want to take off the front sight protector to get them off.

The proof is in the pudding though, whereas previously with the handguards and muzzle cap off the stock tip would only touch the barrel as shown on the below diagram, it now contacts the bottom with some upwards pressure uniformly and without interference from the nose cap. As long as that happens, and there is no contact between the receiver and that bearing point, it shouldn't really matter whether the stock has now taken on a small-v bend (although I would say the angle it was at was previously worse as there was a clear gap between the upper and lower front hand guard without the muzzle cap on.)

Attachment 96451

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I did the same thing to a M1903 C-type stock. The stock had looked like it was stored outside in the rain.

-Cheers

--fjruple

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Originally Posted by WarPig1976

To bring the frontend up you'd have zero gap at the top of your cut and you'd need at least 1/8" at the bottom because you used a shim and the two halves where squared up.

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Well you stoked my curiousity. Pretty easy to sketch into AutoCad. I got lazy and didn't actually measure my 1917 but estimated the length of the forend at 10" and thickness as 1.5". If those are even close..well..your wedge shaped shim is not. If the forend is longer or thicker than this, the 1/8" shim would be even more wrong. As the OP said above, he's adding angle much further back from where he needs it. Thus he needed to add much less space to achieve the correct offset.

I'm sure there's some math that can figure this sort of thing...by why bother when AutoCad will do it for you!

Attachment 96457

I'll take it to the range on Monday and see how she works, weather permitting. I'll let you guys know what happens.

My apologies, I use Workbench not CAD. Workbench has difficulty taking into account all the variables such as angles, arcing wood, blade kerf, finished length, barrel to forearm contact, etc until it’s had it’s coffee.

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Originally Posted by WarPig1976

To bring the frontend up you'd have zero gap at the top of your cut and you'd need at least 1/8" at the bottom because you used a shim and the two halves where squared up.

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That's what happends if one uses all that high-tech stuff. Simple proportioning is sufficient. I actually measured my M1917, and at the position of the barrel band, the fore-end wood is about 30mm wide. The distance from the cut to the front bearing point is about 25 cm (depending on where the bearing point is taken to be). I.e. a good 8 times as much, so 1/64" skew at the cut would produce a change of 1/8" at the front end.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hcompton79

I would think if you were to have a 1/8" difference in thickness near the middle of the forend this would create a much steeper angle and would pull the forend at least an inch upwards.

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Correct.

And now we can put theory aside and look forward to seeing the results on a target!

I went to the range yesterday, the results are pretty good, I still need to make some small changes, but this is an improvement over how it was shooting before.

Attachment 96650

I was shooting PPU 150 grain M1 safe .30-06. Excluding the flier in the "7" ring, all 14 shots fired went into a group measuring a little under 4.75" across. The front sight blade is now roughly centered in the base, where it had been previously drifted almost all the way out and over to the left.

I think I can tighten the group up a bit though, the front sight blade needs to be taller, I had to aim about 8" under the bull with the sights set at 200 yards, and this rifle currently wears a -.015 "P14" marked sight, so I ordered an assortment of taller ones from BRP guns. I have no affiliation with them, but they charge only $2.00 per blade and allow you to choose what height you desire. Based on the distance and sight radius, a .075 should put me on target.

Well done how did the join go pretty good judging by the result allowing for a PWF its grouping pretty good once you get the taller blade in you will have a more defined hold at 6 o'clock on the bull hard to get a good POI when your aiming off the bull rather than sitting the ball on top of the blade.

Spot on, Cinders. Offset aiming is useful to actually get some shots on paper (and save the target frame!) and demonstrate that the rifle is functional. But not for demonstrating its potential accuracy.

Hunter: "The front sight blade is now roughly centered in the base, where it had been previously drifted almost all the way out and over to the left" shows that the warped stock had indeed been bending the barrel. The correction of the woodwork has been successful. Congratulations! If, with an appropriate front blade, the rifle can then put everything within the "9", then it is definitely OK.

I feel the need to say this for anyone that may want to follow suit. Experience tells me the forend still isn’t straight along its length. It’s probably just contacting somewhere else, but beyond all the technicalities though.
It’s a little disappointing to see people applauding the butchering of an intact Milsurp stock to gain a modicum of accuracy. The M1917 wasn’t designed to be a target rifle.
It’s not even about value, let’s face, you’re not putting your kids through college off your collection “maybe Badger can....”
It’s about the history, IMHO that’s been ruined for no good reason.
Rant over,,,cheers.