Does anybody have the OAL's for the three different types of the Kerr slings?
Thanks
Dan
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Does anybody have the OAL's for the three different types of the Kerr slings?
Thanks
Dan
For the M1917, the Kerr sling long piece should be 54 inches long, the short piece at 16 inches.
For the M1903, the long length is 48 inches and the short length around 14-1/2 inches.
For the Thompson, the long piece is 40 inches long.
I just measured my Kerr sling it is 48" and is missing the floating D ring I always assumed that someone removed the D ring for some reason. Now Can I correctly assume that it is for a 1903 and never had the extra D ring like in the pic on the other thread.
You can assume it is for the 1903. I know there are slings with and without the extra D ring but I have never seen documentation confirming the reason for both configurations.Quote:
Originally Posted by rice 123
So if the condition of all three were the same, are any more valuable (rarer) than the others?
Thanks,
Pat
The instruction sheet that came with the slings, states that one size fits the M1917, M1903, Krag, and Russian M1891. All of which were in U.S. service in WWI.
I have Kerr slings on my M1917 & 1903 Springfield, they are of different lengths, and both have the D ring. The 03 lengths are about 49" on the long strap, and 14 1/2" on the short.
The Kerr sling lengths varied greatly, even within the three different size ranges. Either from stretching or an actual quality control issue is unknown.
Thanks guys, got what I needed :)
Dan
is it me , or did a lot of this thread disappear ? i could swear there was added info and photos ......
but then im all over the net maybe im wrong
You're probably thinking of another recent thread on the Kerr slings.
Dan
you may be right , i now see there are others ,
Speaking of Kerr slings, here's a rare bird. A Kerr sling made of leather. As far as I know, there are only two known so far. This one I have and one owned by Hayes O.
We feel they are the first pattern Kerr slings and were made in leather following the norm of the time of using leather for slings.
I just measured the length of it after reading this post and found it's close to the 1917 Enfield sling size with the long piece a tad over 54 inches long, the short piece a little over 16 inches.
This opens up the possibility that having basically the same measurements as the Enfield slings, it could have been originally designed/made for the Enfield in leather at first for the Enfield when the US adopted that rifle. Later changing the sling to canvas.
If this is the case, it could mean that the Kerr sling was first made for the Enfield and later shortened and adoptd for the Springfield also. Maybe, who knows? Ray
now thats an interesting turn of events , ive never seen nor heard of these , and yours looks exceptional - wish we could find some documentation of 'original' , but then id be on a quest for one ....maybe i dont want you to post that ,
very nice looking sling , congrats
I'm not sure but did all the Kerr slings have the early un-blackened brass as this one has. I had sold the Kerr slings I had so I can't check to see. I know the early type non-blackened brass hardware was typical of all early slings made for the Trapdoors, Krags, and early 1907 pattern 1903 slings, Ray
I just did a search for photos of Kerr slings and found a number of them including the photo with that big bunch of them. All the photos show dark metal not the early type bright brass like on the leather one. I think this adds creditibility that it is an early sling and most likely the 1st pattern Kerr sling designed. Also because of it's length, probably made specifically for the 1917 Enfield. Ray
Add three and a half to your count of leather slings with the Kerr style hardware. I have one that is in terrible shape, a friend has one that is in better condition, although not nearly as good as the one you pictured. The same guy also has one where the long portion is leather and the short portion is the standard mustard colored webbing. That’s the one I call the half sling. I saw a very good condition leather one in a gun shop in Texas last year. Although I suspect it was created post military from a worn out web Kerr Sling because the rivets had flat heads instead of being completely tubular. I tried to buy the sling but as it was on a consignment rifle so I couldn’t get just the sling.
It is possible the leather variants are early versions but I rather doubt it. According to Brophy what we call the Kerr sling was born from a 1913 Ordnance request for a web sling to replace the M1907 leather sling. The patent for the Kerr Adjustable Strap Company wasn’t for a rifle sling; it was for a buckle less adjustable for a saddle stirrup so it would be doubtful they were making rifle slings before the Ordnance request. At the time of the Ordnance request the M1917 wasn’t on the drawing board let alone in existence so it is more probable the first slings submitted would have been sized for the Model of 1903 Springfield. If slings were required for the US made Pattern 14 rifles I would think the much simpler British design P14 sling in either leather or webbing would have been produced instead of a completely different design.
As far as the bright brass on the leather sling you pictured it isn’t unique to the leather sling. I have a box full of web Kerr slings that has bright brass hardware. Whether the hardware started out bright or was polished is anyone’s guess.
The half leather Kerr type sling leads me to believe leather was used to replace unserviceable webbing. Of course it is just as likely the shorter portion was lost and a web replacement was found to make the sling serviceable again.
Well without any actual documentation we can only guess.
I am away from my Brophy book so I can't comment on what it says. Does he say any canvas slings were ever produced according to the 1913 Ordnance request and if so, what did they look like and did that request state Kerr no buckles were to be used and in fact if any were manufactured?.
We may be talking about an entirely different pattern sling and possibly that request was not even acted upon until a few years later unless Brophy has documentation showing it was was in fact a Kerr pattern sling and a date of mfg.
As long as we are guessing, I would think that just before we entered WWI. Ordnance decided to produce a different pattern sling as an alternate to the 1907 pattern sling and using the no-buckle that was available at the time.
Possibly the first ones were made in leather following the norn for leather and later switched to canvas per the 1913 request.
Just because the patent date is 1914 doesn't mean the slings with those buckles were made then. Many items are made years after their patent dates. As you said they were originally made for stirrups not slings. The bottom line is does any one know the actual date the Kerr slings were first produced? Lots of questions remain. Also how do you explain the leather ones?
Out of curiousity, what are the lengths of yours and your buddies? Ray
Some more curves. I believe the Kerr slings were not a US Ordnance produced sling. In that they were contracted out to the Kerr company like Mills belts and other items were. There are no US Ord. inspectors stamps on any of the Kerr slings that I know of just the Kerr name. Of course not all items have US inspection stamps. However I was told that they were privately produced by the Kerr company and contracted by the government. Now just my thoughts, maybe to meet the demands of war time.
Also I have to believe that the leather ones were originally produced in leather and were not just ordnance repaired slings. I can't see ordnance using leather to replace regulation canvas during any repair of the sling. More questions, :) Ray
I am out of town so anything from Brophy’s book is from memory but I distinctly remember the Kerr sling was adopted based on a 1913 test born from the Ordnance request. There is also verbiage written by a CPT praising the web Kerr sling over the leather M1907 sling. IIRC the test was a year in duration and the passage says the sling that was adopted was manufactured by the Kerr Adjustable Strap Company. One of the problems with web slings designs at the time was having a design that held in place securely but was easily adjustable. The Kerr method solved both problems at once. We can verify the Kerr sling was adopted because it is in the SNL for Rifle B-3 which is the ’03 Springfield.
The 1913 Ordnance requirement was for web slings not leather ones. At the time the Army was switching from leather items to web items so I seriously doubt they would consider a leather sling of a different design when they asked for a web sling. The initial patent application for the buckle less adjusting method is dated September 9, 1913 and the patent was issued on the date appearing on the hardware.Quote:
Originally Posted by rayg
I already mentioned how I explain the leather ones in my previous post. It wouldn’t take much to replace the unserviceable webbing with leather. I have seen numerous M1 Garand type slings that had the webbing replaced with a strip of leather and even M1 carbine slings done the same way. I know the leather on the sling I saw in Texas, San Antonio IIRC, was a replacement. The rivets were completly different. It is also possible the Kerr Adjustable Strap Company made and sold both web and leather slings after the war.
Reference the lengths mine is so stretched out and the leather is hard and won’t lay flat so any measurements taken from it would be unusable.
I think you pretty well answered most of the questions. Had I had my Brophy book to read I wouldn't have asked so many questions.
I paid $25 for my sling and I got my monies worth out of already. By the way it had been on an original early 03 Springfield. Which might, or might not, indicate government service. Ray
Wow, that is a pretty cool bird, I never even knew any Kerr's were made in leather.
Thanks for those really neat photos.
Dan