Questions about rifle action and general strength of k98

I'm looking to buy a German, Mauser k98k... 7,92... The gun I'm looking at is 1945 dated. Stock is dry, looks like it could've been refinished and left without any oil to protect the wood, or perhaps my assumption could be far off. The seller has described it to me a "last ditch" rifle... The gun doesn't even have a hole near the front cap to insert a cleaning rod, which I found odd. I'm not sure how I feel about owning a last ditch gun, but it's in the price range for me and maybe you guys could talk some sense into me... So I've come here hoping to get some questions answered from the finest milsurp forum there is. Question 1. Was action strength ever compromised in anyway for these late war rifles? Question 2. Is the metallurgy or properties of the steel in the late war rifles just as good as 1940 dated K98ks? Was there any compromise in metal strength, I should say. That's basically all I want to know. I'm sure even when Nazi Germany was scrambling to get every gun they could and trying to get them out the factories STAT, they still probably had high standards, right? At least I would assume so. Or did standard relax a bit??? Thanks a lot mates.

You are right in wondering about 1945 production. Most of the very late 98's are/have collector interest. I would not be looking for a 1945 shooter. Personally, I would be looking at a pre-war 98, for shooting and collecting. Guys, jump in on this question.

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Originally Posted by Calif-Steve

You are right in wondering about 1945 production. Most of the very late 98's are/have collector interest. I would not be looking for a 1945 shooter. Personally, I would be looking at a pre-war 98, for shooting and collecting. Guys, jump in on this question.

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Why would you not consider looking at a 1945 for a shooter? Is it more collectable? I figured the way this things looks it would be less desirable. I looked at it on the 30th and the action seems just as strong as any other mauser... Of course so do low serial numbered 1903s. I just want to be sure the gun is structurally intact and that the heat treating was done right... But impossible to know just by sight i suppose. Yes im actually thinking about finding a 1939-1942 model. Guns cranked out as fast as they can be, makes me nervous. Perhaps my nervousness is unfounded. Its always a gamble with and milsurp to an extent if you want a shooter.

My guess is that Calif-Steve bases his opinion upon the belief/myth/hype that any late war German weapons were subject to sabotage or poor workmanship at the hands of slave labourers, or that late war production was 'rushed' or not of the highest quality materials. That said, I personally have never, ever seen a Kar98 of any vintage have a structural failure. Would I shoot a 1945 Kar98? Yes, after checking it - just as I would any vintage firearm.

remember, a lot of the late war made by jewish prisoner rifles for the german military were used by isreal.... no issues for them.

At the same time, there is a really nice book somewhere abouts that tells ANY company that does heat treating of metal including guns how to take the heat treatment out and then RE HEAT TREAT it to make it completely back to model 98 standards

Late war K98ks are perfectly safe to shoot provided no one has done anything to it afterwards and it is in good condition.

The Germans cut corners on the stuff which didn't matter like overall fit and finish and simplifying the design as much as possible. They did not make unsafe rifles. Much like Japanese late war, or Russian wartime production its crude but still effective.

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Originally Posted by Eaglelord17

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The Germans cut corners on the stuff which didn't matter like overall fit and finish and simplifying the design as much as possible. They did not make unsafe rifles. ...

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The potential problems are from things you can't see, cannot simply assume, and will not discover until there is a failure: poor raw material, and ersatz or improper or substandard heat treatment.

It is an inescapable fact that by 1945 the Germans were desperate, and resorting to materials and methods that would not have been acceptable given more time and resources. Quality was subordinated to maintaining high production. What is surprising is that quality generally remained as high as it did. Yet, inevitably, under such circumstances there must have been many lapses.

So --when you have a choice--do you want to trust your face to generalizations? If you're going to build a sporter, it's more sensible, with less risk, to start out with something unquestionably better.

M

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Originally Posted by MGMike

The potential problems are from things you can't see, cannot simply assume, and will not discover until there is a failure: poor raw material, and ersatz or improper or substandard heat treatment.

It is an inescapable fact that by 1945 the Germans were desperate, and resorting to materials and methods that would not have been acceptable given more time and resources. Quality was subordinated to maintaining high production. What is surprising is that quality generally remained as high as it did. Yet, inevitably, under such circumstances there must have been many lapses.

So --when you have a choice--do you want to trust your face to generalizations? If you're going to build a sporter, it's more sensible, with less risk, to start out with something unquestionably better.

M

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When the war is going badly and you're desperate you definitely want to cut corners and issue your troops unsafe rifles... Cuz that makes sense.

I have a 1945 mix-master K98 shooter. It's a lot of things; accurate, reliable, fun. But the one thing it isn't is unsafe and poor quality.

Not a matter of issuing troops unsafe rifles. It is a matter of cutting corners, speeding things up and utilizing less resources or other resources because the correct ones are no longer available. Quality in these instances do indeed suffer. Germany did have what is considered a last ditch rifle that most consider a collector piece not suitable for firing. These are extremely rare and the rifle in question here probably is not one.

They cut corners on the stock, cleaning rod, and finish, not on the strength of the action... Doing so would be the most counter productive thing they could have done.

You always hear about this crap, but I’ve yet to see any documented proof that any of the last ditch rifles from either Germany or Japan were unsafe fire or that the actions were significantly less strong than pre-war examples.

Just re-read this string. I am not referring to strength of the 1945 Kar98k. They are usually very strong. But the 1945 production has its own collector fans. Shooting the rifle MAY devalue it. A good shooter would be a 1938-42 Kar98k. But only from a collector view. It is true German armor steel declined in late 1944 and caused problems for tank steel, but as far as I know this was not the case for rifle production. I have owned only one 1945 Kar98k, as they tend to be few and far between. Just take good care of it and good luck.

"...from a collector view..." There are collectors who want one K98 from every year of manufacture.
I doubt there was any difference in QC between 1939 Oberndorf rifles and 1945 Oberndorf rifles. Slave labour or not.
The Germans made more stuff in 1945 than they did in 1940. Just in underground factories. Despite the 24 hours of bombing.

Yes the Allies pounded them 24/7 but had the twit not interfered with the 262 then the B-17's and the like would have been shot out of the skies as the allied fighters of the period until the meteor came about very late in the war well they could not hope to get the jets unless they were landing or taking off or just plain napping.
Nazi production in the latter part in some instances went up in '44-45 and truth be known if they had made the firing block with its slider out of 2 different metals then the aerial mines they dropped would never have suffered binding thus rendering them useless with the time delay clock, they alone nearly brought England undone the Magnetic, Acoustic and Magnetic/Acoustic mines.
There was the aerial mine George also which was the pinnacle of their development with photo electric cells and a printed circuit to boot well before anyone else developed one, you should take the time to study what they developed in the war the FW-190 was a fly by wire with a power divider with double wiring in case one lot got damaged.

I know nought about the production of K-98 '45 vintage but given the Germans propensity to quality in producing weapons then the proof firings would have delivered bad results and quite traceable back to certain areas of production not good for the person doing that part of the process.
Yes there were sabotage efforts one story related to a B-17 coming back with 3 x 20mm explosive rounds in its fuel tank care of a German fighter when the armourers came to delouse them they found them to be duds with no explosives in them but one had a note inside with "This is all I can do for now."

Reference the Gloster Meteor:
My godfather, Denis Powell, was a RAF fighter pilot, first on Spitfires and then Mosquitos and finally on the Meteors before war's end. The Meteors were not allowed to cross the channel until very near the war's end for security reasons. The concern being the risk of their technology being divulged if one had been lost and fell into German hands. For that reason, they were initially used to intercept and shoot down or 'tip over' V-1s by coming alongside, getting a wingtip under the stub wing of the V-1 and tip it over. The V-1s would explode once they went inverted.

That was something he did to earn the King's shilling back then.

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Originally Posted by Fruler

Why would you not consider looking at a 1945 for a shooter? Is it more collectable? I figured the way this things looks it would be less desirable.

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The late war 45 stuff has their own devotees among K98 collectors, so can be just as collectible.

The actions were just as strong, they cut back on stamped items on later guns, where they could, like the barrel bands etc.

See here for comprehensive info on the Kriegsmodell and Semi-Kriegsmodell versions of the K98 made in the last 6 months of the war.

http://www.latewar.com/

:thup:

Excellent information guys. I ended up getting a much cheaper k98k from a local guy for $450. Russian capture... Interestingly the only serial number that matches is the stock to the receiver. Other than that, not a single matching number. Shoots great... 1944 dot made. I dont care about the lack of matching numbers, just wanted an example of a k98k to shoot. Only complaint is from the seller. Told me when i bought it he took it out shooting the day before.... The idiot used corrosive ammo, so after about a week of sitting i noticed rust appearing on the bolt... Ran a patch and brus h down the bore and sure enough, rusty... Got the rust out, all is well now. Sanded rust of bolt with very fine grade sandpaper i had laying around. I do like the 100 yard sights... Compared to my enfield that has a 300 and 600 yards sight. Rifle is dead on at 50 and 100 yards... Luckily over the past 75 years someone took the time to zero the rifle. Thanks guys for the information, very appreciated.

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Originally Posted by amadeus76

They cut corners on the stock, cleaning rod, and finish, not on the strength of the action... Doing so would be the most counter productive thing they could have done.

You always hear about this crap, but I’ve yet to see any documented proof that any of the last ditch rifles from either Germany or Japan were unsafe fire or that the actions were significantly less strong than pre-war examples.

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I agree with you. I doubt Germany, Japan, or even Russia for that matter sent any troops out with dangerous rifles, straight from the factory... Doesn't make sense to, in fact it's counter productive. Omitting things such as cleaning rods, bayonet lugs etc was a good idea IMO... They wouldn't have won the war anyways but I think from the beginning the "war model" should have been the standard from day one of adoption of the k98k. If the average German soldier had time to clean his rifle on the eastern front, or lived long enough on to have had that opportunity, a cheap pull through bore snake wouldve been ideal, like what was used on the Enfield. SO... Yeah, from my understanding there was never a short supply of quality steel... Most of it came from Sweden. I think the problem was getting it to where it needed to be... Basically most all armament plants were bombed. If any gun that i would expect a KABOOM from would be a war time mosin, in any variation... But i dont ever remember hearing of any KABOOMS with those. I'm just impressed with my K98k action. 3 locking lugs... 8mm mauser... it would take a seriously over pressured load to blow my 1944 dot Russ capture. The one i ended up buying has been shot a lot. Totally rebuilt by the russians. Only matching number is the stock. Im also impressed with the accuracy of the rifle... But ive only shot it out to 100 yards with irons. Thanks for replying!!!