NO 4 MK1 (T) VERIFICATION

I have a no 4 mk 1 (T) , i am certain it is a true (T) RIFLE, but i would like to get it verified by someone that would know for sure. it has all the markings on the metal it should have, the but stock numbers are not correct. the but stock does have the S 5 1 in the correct spot . you have to look at it at a certain angle to see it good. i sent pics to Capt stevens he says he thinks its the real thing.HE SAID ITS UNUSUAL to have a letter on that end of the serial # i live near nashville tn . I would gladly take it to someone that could look at it for me.serial # 36196V. i have owned this for over 20 years. import mark is from century arms. The guy i bought it from said he bought it from century arms.thanx tramo

Can you post some pictures TRAMO? If you can you'll have people falling over themselves to help you.

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Originally Posted by TRAMO

the but stock numbers are not correct.

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The 4T was supplied by H&H with a 'N' length butt only, if, when it was issued, the sniper required as 'S' or 'L' length then it would be changed by an Armourer and would then be down to the armourer to number / mark it up 'if he wanted to'.



Copy of extract from the 1944 Components list

Attachment 105352Attachment 105353Attachment 105354Attachment 105355

Attachment 105356Attachment 105357

More questions first TRAMO! It is a genuine 4T so don't fret about that. However, I can't make up my mind about the markings on the butt socket. The rifle may have been renumbered at some point or the original number may have been reapplied (commonly done if the serial number was only marked shallowly, so as to make it clearer). Unfortunately there's a band of reflected light across the photo of the butt socket that would otherwise be most helpful. Could you get a pic looking straight down onto the serial number area of the butt socket? The finish on the butt socket is smooth & the rest of the body of the rifle has the late war textured brunofixed finish. I'm also not sure if in one of the photo's there mightn't just be a hint of file marks showing, but a couple of clear photo's would put that to bed one way or the other.

It would also be helpful to know the year of manufacture (should also be on the butt socket sandwiched between the serial & the M47C), & a pic of the serial number on the bolt. It is odd that the V has been marked as a suffix rather than a prefix, but V prefixed serials are found on 1945 dated rifles, so if dated earlier something odd has gone on.

So, the rifle is the real thing, but might have had the numbers altered or restamped at some point.

Attachment 105358Attachment 105359Attachment 105360Attachment 105361Attachment 105362Attachment 105363

THE DATE ,USING A MAGNAFYING GLASS THE DATE LOOKS LIKE 1944. THE BOLT,MAG, BUT SOCKET ALL MATCH. IT HAS THE HARRY HEMBRICK INSPECTORS MARK. THE REAR SIGHT HAS ( SM ) ON THE SIDE. YOU CAN ALSO SEE THE ( S ) ON RIGHT SIDE OF RECIEVER.

If the date is 1944 then you would not expect there to be a V in the serial number at all. Thanks for the additional photo's, by the way. The serial numbering on both the butt socket & the rear face of the bolt body is not 'factory original'. The digits on yours have been engraved, whereas they were stamped in the BSA factory. I must say, although the photo's are much closer up & show more detail I couldn't be sure that the date is 1944, although I don't have the rifle in hand & have a magnifying glass on it! Could it just possibly be 1945 not 1944? If so, a V as part of the serial number would be quite appropriate. It may well be that it is a 1945 rifle & at some point in its service life it had its serial number 'freshened up' by engraving - to make it easier to read - & during this process the V inadvertently got put at the end of the serial instead of the beginning. This would not surprise me at all. Going over a shallowly engraved or stamped serial number to make it deeper & so easier to make out was quite common.

Incidentally, the rifle serial stamped into the front top part of the butt that fits into the butt socket of the receiver (body) appears to be genuine 4T, but not original to your rifle. I can't make out every digit from the photo, but it does not look like 36196 to me (letter prefixes were not stamped into the wood here, just the number).

Hope this helps.

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

The 4T was supplied by H&H with a 'N' length butt only, if, when it was issued, the sniper required as 'S' or 'L' length then it would be changed by an Armourer and would then be down to the armourer to number / mark it up 'if he wanted to'.

Copy of extract from the 1944 Components list

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The "fine adjustment backsight" reference is slightly odd, since it was simply a standard No.4 Rifle backsight!
A conscious or unconscious hold-over from the description of the No.3 MkI*(T) presumably.

Perhaps a reference to the Mk1 'Singer' rear-sights being obligatory rather than the Mk2 'battle sight'??

There's something about the engraved serial number font which looks a bit European, e.g. German... is it just me? Did the European nations e.g. Germany receive any No 4 (T)s after the war?

Not sure about Germany Rob, but France, Belgium, Holland & Italy all received substantial numbers of Lee Enfields. Yes, it was the font of the engraving that first caught my eye, too.....

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

The "fine adjustment backsight" reference is slightly odd, since it was simply a standard No.4 Rifle backsight!
A conscious or unconscious hold-over from the description of the No.3 MkI*(T) presumably.

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Guesswork :

Maybe it was to ensure that they were only supplied with the Mk1 sight, rather than the MK2, 3 or 4 which may have been used at the time.

It did come through Ishapor at some point because it has the screw. could it have been FTR there?

It's quite possible the number could have been freshened up there, although they more typically stamped them. But all is possible.

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Originally Posted by TRAMO

It did come through Ishapor at some point because it has the screw. could it have been FTR there?

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The screw is a British thing, just the Indians did it more.
The Aussies did it as well and they used big bolts too.

It would be nice to get rid of the commonly held belief that screw = Ishapore. The brits did it but also used dowels.

Big ugly screw does equal ishy but not all screws.....

according to the Laidler and skennerton book page 58 the rear sight on mine is correct . It appears to be Identicle to page 58.

They generally came with 'Singer' rear sights manufactured actually by Singer in Scotland. They (Singer) used their initials followed by the last two digits of the date until later on in the war, & then their allocated factory code (but without the date). Being in Scotland they were in the Northern area, & were allocated manufacturer number 67. Hence you see sights on 4T's marked SM41, SM42 (in principle, can't actually remember seeing a 42), SM43, & N67. Obviously this doesn't generally apply to the Trials rifles made at Enfield, to Savage, or to Long Branch manufactured rifles. These were generally equipped with 'in house' manufactured Mk1 rear sights, although, with swapping of parts between the two factories in North America Long Branch rifles are commonly seen with Savage made rear sights.

One thing nobody has commented on yet, & which is puzzling me, is the fact that whilst the rifle serial has been re-engraved (granted, I'm making an assumption, & I know it is an assumption, that the original s/n has been reapplied, not a different one), the rifle has been re-bolted, the new bolt being professionally numbered, but the rifle itself, has not been fully refinished. I would have expected that if the rifle had been through UK ordnance it would have been refinished by bead-blasting, parkerising, & suncoriting, at the same time (presumably) that the bolt was replaced & the serial picked out. Yet the finish on the body looks typical late war textured 'brunofixing', but if you look at the 3rd photo in post 7, you can see quite clearly that the surface of the butt socket has been cleaned up smooth. Note also on the next photo you can see the linishing on the bolt body, presumably to remove a previous rifle's serial, before this rifle's number was engraved upon it. I would have thought that in UK service that would have merited a phossing & blacking, & in Indian service a six inch thick coat of Dulux Magicote black gloss! Having said that, whoever rematched the bolt & reapplied the serial number did a very neat job of it & was a decent engraver.

But your rifle is a genuine 4T TRAMO, it just has a history to it that is interesting to try to piece together.....

Attachment 105417

LOOKS LIKE " Q 32816 "

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LOOKS LIKE " Q 32816 " WAS THE ORIGINAL NUMBER ON MAG

Hi TRAMO. The Q prefix serial number would mean the rifle it was from could have been dated 1944 or 1945, as they were at the change of the year around the P/Q/R prefixes. I have owned both P & R prefix rifles with 1944 & 1945 dates. I suspect the mag is therefore just a little earlier than your rifle, but not by much.

I am putting this sniper Rifle up forsale and want some suggestions of what would be a reasonable price to ask. thanx TRAMO