Hi all,
I was wondering what the official acceptable accuracy (group size at 100yds) for new carbines in WW2?
For that matter, what do Carbine owners consider average group size to be at 100yds?
I haven't had a chance to shoot my M1A1 as yet....
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Hi all,
I was wondering what the official acceptable accuracy (group size at 100yds) for new carbines in WW2?
For that matter, what do Carbine owners consider average group size to be at 100yds?
I haven't had a chance to shoot my M1A1 as yet....
There is a downloadable PDF on the carbine club site titled"shooting accuracy of the carbine". It goes into quite a lot of detail of how to set up the carbine and different loads of ammunition you can use to improve accuracy. I do not know how to post a link or I would have but it's pretty easy to find if you use Google. I think I typed into Google"carbine club data on M1 carbine accuracy"hth
I'd have to be at home to check, but as I recall, accuracy requirements were not spec'd at 100 yards. The Carbine was expected to shoot reasonably well at 300 yards. However, Internet rumour(as in Wikipedia) says between 3 and 5 inches at 100 with military issue ball ammo.
The CMP .pdf talks about ammo and how to get a Carbine to shoot well(don't use milsurp ammo), but not Ordnance Dept specs.
A copy of the target used would explain a lot. I can’t upload to this site, but someone else might. It clearly shows were the rounds should print for acceptable accuracy. Me....I am at that age where coffee-cans at 25-yards is completely acceptable.
Thanks for the info guys, I wanted to have a rough idea what to expect accuracy wise.
The bore on mine looks 'ok', a bit of wear and the odd bit of frosting (as you would expect from a well used and travelled rifle), but the crown and lead in look to be in good order.
The target is shown on p. 53 of TM 9-1276. When printed out, the black should be 3" wide and the dotted area 4" wide. :thup: - Bob
At's the one Bob and it's a 25-yard target. Obviously accepting a 3 x 4 inch group at 25-yards doesn't make it a tack driver, or maybe a not-so-good shooter, but was deemed acceptable. Even a man as old and blind as me can shoot 1-inch groups supported at 25-yards. I just zero mine to shoot about an inch high at 25 and the ballistics tell me it will be relatively flat out to 100-125. I can't see past 100-yards anyhow.:D
The 100 yard sighting target is huge, with an acceptable area 16" wide x 12' high. The aiming point is at the centerline on the lower edge of this area. With the rear sight on '1-1.5', and aiming at the indicated point, all shots should be in the acceptable area. So up to 12" high and 8" right or left of the centerline would pass a carbine for deployment, but if it shot a considerable number below the aiming point the sight post would have to be lowered. As you can see, the sights are not set up for zeroing at 100 yards although if your carbine will shoot into the acceptable area, you can adjust the windage if it favors one side over the other.
As far as groups, its pretty good if you and your carbine and its ammo can get together enough to shoot 6" at 100. If you modify the front sight to zero at 100 it will throw off the rear sight range settings.
Even on the 25 yard target, the aiming point is the centerline of the lower edge of the impact area. The carbine utilizes the '6:00 hold'. Soldiers were taught to put the sights on the enemy's belt buckle which should get a torso hit at the appropriate range.
Great info Inland,thanks. It's always the way way when you buy a new milsurp and you have no idea what to accept accuracy wise.
Appreciate all the feedback guys, I'm trying to develop a good working understanding of these great little rifles.
Having read a lot about the sighting routine of these carbines, if you were in the vicinity, it passed. The carbines are funny weapons, Look at one from the top and sometimes the various part groups look like they don't belong together. The barrel points one way and the receiver another, but they work. Expecting accuracy is not a sure thing. No matter how new and original the carbine is doesn't guarantee accuracy. I have a NPM with an IBM barrel that holds the 10 ring at 100 yds on an SR-1. That's about 3-4". I have two essentially new originals, a 5.6 Win and a 5.4 Inland, low miles, type 2-3 sights, new barrels, etc. They both shoot to point of aim having left the factory with type 2 bands and factory adjustable sights. They should easily out perform the NPM but they don't. The NPM has a barrel that measures probably 1 or 2, it sits in a beat up I cut Inland stock and has a type 3 band. You just don't know. They were pounding out 1000 a day at these factories and were built to be adequate, not perfect. That they are as nice as they are is a treat.
These carbines were wildly popular in the European theater. My late FIL was an officer in the "Red Ball Express" pushing supplies from Omaha toward Germany 24/7. He received a brand new Carbine and it was stolen the first day. Hauling around a handy 5lb weapon as compared to an 8lb big not handy Garand, was what these GIs wanted. In N.Africa, Brig Gen Theodore Roosevelt 2nd man in charge of the 1st division carried a carbine and plugged people, mostly French Bedouins with it to great effect. He had no problem shooting people who were problems, no matter who's side hey were on.
Found my picture:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../dfJQDzG-1.jpg
Last november at the Tulsa show my kid bought a Universal rifle. It was one of the dreaded final cheaply made versions.
After thorough cleaning and inspection, we checked its zero. Surprisingly it was on for windage. A small elevation adjustment and we were consistantly hitting 10 inch plates at 220 yards.
I was shocked at how consistant it was and how reliable it was. So far, no signs of cracks or defects.
I got the chance to attend the Western Games. They ran the first part but C-19 cancelled the later part. I shot in the M1 Carbine match. I had not really done much with this rifle: NRA early 60's, sportorized 1970's, back to USGI 1990's. At 100 yards with Remington Green and White box FMJ I had to have eight clicks left and hold the 2.5 on the TOP of the black. I shot a 318/400. On the prone rapid I think I went for a 6:00 hold, because all my shots were low and right. I could hold the black of the SR-1 in prone slow and sitting rapid. We shot in the shade and I find I do better in the sun because of my older eyes (smaller pupils). The trigger on the Carbine is combat approved but pretty much like breaking a thick twig and not so friendly when fine accuracy counts. The rifle has all the CMP recommended tweaks: M2 stock, action hangs off the recoil plate, bayonet band, adjustable sight. The mags all worked well and no FTF's. The winner shot somewhere in the high 360's. Your mileage may vary.
Dave
Most carbines even with fairly well worn barrels are capable of 4 inch or smaller 100 yard groups. If the groups are larger than that, the culprit is almost always stock or band fit. The recoil plate should hold the barrel about 1/2 inch above the stock channel without the hand guard on and with the barrel band loose and clear of the stock. If this isn't the case, the recoil plate needs to be replaced or adjusted in the stock to hold the barrel slightly elevated. The barrel band should fit fairly snuggly on the barrel and pull the barrel downward into the channel. This can't always be done with a type 1 band. That is why the type 2 and 3 bands are springy and have "pads" that hold the barrel firmly. The action should not move in the assembled carbine when pulled or pushed from the muzzle end. If the action is loose in the stock accuracy will suffer. In addition, some carbines are ammo sensitive and will have a specific ammo preference. I've had more than 25 different carbines over the years and have never had one that couldn't be made to shoot 3 inches or less at 100 yards. And some of them gauged 4.5 at the muzzle. A bit of attention to those details can make any carbine into a decent shooter.
I'm curious what the trigger pull on that one measures? I've got one that's close to 10 lb. and the lightest one is a hair under 6 if I remember correctly. I know what you mean about how much the lighting changes things! - BobQuote:
Originally Posted by Wineman
Trigger pull really isn't adjustable. You can try a different hammer spring and possibly find one that is a bit lighter. Sear work is not recommended since it can lead to chain firing. The heavy trigger pull is the reason that sears, hammers and hammer springs were modified in the carbine. While 6 lbs is on the light side and 10 lbs is on the heavy side, both are within the norms for carbine. They simply are not known for great trigger pulls.
Thanks for all the advise guys, group learning at its very best!
I'm slowly digesting all this information and looking forward to shooting the M1A1, with a much better all round understanding of the rifle and what to expect of it when the four horsemen of the apocalypse have finally stabled their horses!
Within reason, you can adjust the hammer spring. I have a 9mm M1carbine using cast bolts. The cast bolts get pretty well bashed after a few hundred rounds. To limit the hammer-blow, I have collapsed a few coils on the hammer spring and it actually improved TP a bit. You can’t take it too far though. Carbines were designed to shoot in all manner of conditions each and every time the trigger is pulled. A recreational gun would not necessarily require that level of reliability, but I have had no ignition issues. Hammer springs are relatively cheap to experiment with.
I have never measured it but it passed the CMP trigger pull and weight test (4.5 lb for the trigger, 6.1 lb overall weight). Next time I have it out I'll see what it is. I had never attended a CMP games match and I expected to have a cavity search at the armorers table. Nope, a quick look and trigger check, took all of 30 seconds. I suppose if someone complained, and you had won a Maserati or Ferrari instead of a nice medal, they might do a more thorough look see. I always wondered if you leave it cocked, the hammer spring might get softer over time and make the trigger a bit lighter?
Dave
Actually, at the nationals, that is about all they do:UNLESS you are in the top ten. Then they do a complete strip down of the rifle and make sure it is not accurized in any way, It has to be totally "stock". If not, then you are disqualified.
I think it might. One of mine with a lighter pull has an M2 sear (eBay: "hammer release") and I think that helps. They seem to have polished surfaces. I think it's an RIA part. I would think they should be legal to use?? - BobQuote:
Originally Posted by Wineman
Type 2 trigger, type 3 sear, type 3 recoil plate and the type 3 barrel band. All add to the accuracy of an M1 carbine. The type 2 trigger was designed for easing the trigger pull. But you can only go so far before you get into dangerous territory. Do not stone the trigger or the sear. If you do you should be ready for a surprise when you fire it. As to cutting the hammer spring. The original had 22 coils but was increased to 26 coils to improve the force of the hammer when it hits the firing pin. Of course your not in a combat situation. Don't mess with the sear spring as it can and often will present unwanted surprises.
Funny that you never hear of the warning about oiling the hammer or sear on the carbine, but the M1 Garand is adamant about that warning. Probably because the Garand is a two stage trigger. You look at some of these carbine hammers and you'd think that they've got to be unsafe with the shape of the notch but they are all safe as can be. Winchesters are the only ones that look OK.
If I remember correctly, the M1 carbine was originally intended to replace the pistol as a sidearm for personnel who couldn't really carry/use a full size rifle? In that case intended use was close up and acceptable accuracy. Later use morphed totally.
Absolutely, whats 'acceptable' accuracy from a carbine, designed in wartime and initially as armament for rear echelon troops?Quote:
Originally Posted by Daan Kemp
I would say being able to to hit a man sized target at 100yds is acceptable and being able to keep heads down at 200 + is good enough.
It was only later when wartime demands thrust the Carbine into first line issue that accuracy became a thing to considered and soldiers facing very angry men, quite naturally expected to be able to reach out and give opponents the good news (from a good distance) with a rifle, even if its a carbine....
The carbine was designed to have an effective range of 300 yards and hit a man sized target at that distance with the force of a .38 SPL has at the muzzle. That would equal about 250 lbs. of energy. Not a lot by todays standards but back in the day it was adequate. So accuracy was the ability of the carbine to hit a minute of bad guy at 300 yards and to take them out of the picture. Might only wound them but they are no longer in the fight. Today with a good soft point round the carbine is even much more deadly.
Read "Blackhawk Down" and hear what a failure the M16 was. The D Boys said that you could have multiple hits and the target would simply flinch and keep right on doing, to die later from the wounds. The M14 equipped D Boys would drop the bad guy with one shot every time..
The M16 was a killer in VN with the 55 grain bullet and 12/1 twist barrel. Add the green tip round and it just drilled holes in people. Undoubtedly hundreds of people shot with the M16 went down, but the overall impression was not good with the D Boys.
Step back with the carbine and thousands of enemy soldiers died after being shot with it. Audie Murphy used the carbine as his preferred weapon. He was a hunter of men and shot killing shots with that rifle. He liked 15 shots and the handy way the carbine could be used. On Iwo and Okinawa, the Marines used it to great effect and they were not rear area troops. It wasn't made as a replacement for the pistol, it was just another weapon, and a very popular weapon.
1st Infantry Division received carbines on 10 Jul 42, shortly before embarking for UK. Their 'thrusting' began in earnest on 8 Nov 42.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrclark303
What 'wartime demands' are you referring to? 1st ID looks pretty 'front line' to me.
I simply mean that as designed, it was meant mainly for rear echelon troops.Quote:
Originally Posted by firstflabn
I always thought that was the primary design driver?
When the US entered the war, the extremely rapid mobilisation saw it propelled straight into the front line.
That's incorrect. Take a look at the first page of War Baby! Development of the carbine was requested in 1940 by the Chief of Infantry to arm personnel of the infantry regiment. In the 1940 T/O, a bit over one third of GIs in an infantry regiment were armed with pistols.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrclark303
I just read the history of the landing and subsequent battles up into Italy, called "An Army At Dawn" by Rick Atkinson. It was a real eye opener, the fighting was much, much more intense and deadly as I was led to believe. Thousands of NG Battalions lost their lives being led by Bob the guy who owned the gas station and was the Lt Colonel. One of the few professional Regular Army units was the First Infantry Div. They were trained better than the NG units but still, lack of experience made the thing rough. Bad maps, drunk officers and fighting crack German units that had been fighting in Russia. The 1st loved their General Terry Allen and Ike sacked him which was total BS. Assistant Div CO was Theodore Roosevelt he was sacked too. He loved the new Carbine and shot a lot of Bedoins and rogue aux troops who were pillaging around after the Germans cleared the A.O.Quote:
Originally Posted by firstflabn
If you are interested: "The British are Coming" by Rick Atkinson the real truth about the Minutemen and how those farmers and blacksmiths kick the living crap out of the Thin Red Line.
Ther carbine was very effective for close up and personal fighting. When used as a rifle at rifle ranges (200+ yards) it did not do as well. My dad fought with an M1 Carbine on Iwo Jima and came home in one piece. He loved the carbine and said it "never failed him."
I carried an M1 Carbine a s a patrol carbine for much of my 20 years as an LEO. Never had a problem qualifying with it, and never felt under-gunned with it.
You'll enjoy Volumes 2 and 3 then, Dave. Even knowing how the story comes out, while reading the first book it is difficult to see how Ike survives all the early SNAFUs. With Atkinson's novelist's eye for narrative and a great talent at research, I had to ration my reading of the trilogy so as not to use it all up too soon.
The 1st ID's 1 Aug 43 G-4 Report includes this: "After 5 months of continuous combat, the equipment of the Division, particularly motor vehicles, weapons and communications equipment required complete overhaul by 3rd and 4th echelon maintanance, during which a great quantity was salvaged and replaced."
Looks like those (presumably) 4 digit Inlands received in Jul 42 got used up or spread around pretty quick.
I have and have read all three, well written and this author uses a lot of information to tell the story. Stuff I've never heard about after reading history for 60+ years. Like the general in charge of logistics that has his own piano hauled around everywhere he goes. Amazing. I agree, I went through the trilogy like Sherman through the South. Made me read "The Long Gray Line" in a lot of ways a disturbing book. I was over there '66-67 and served under a lot of West Pointers. "In the company of soldiers" was not as interesting, but then compared to other conflicts, it wasn't much of a war. Petraus reminded me of the staff weenies longing for a c rat can cut and getting shot at so they could get their CIB and PH. By mid 67 when I could see the Army turning Vietnam into the big PX, I knew we would lose that war. I used to run convoys down Hwy 1 to Cam Rahn and that place was like state side. Paved freeways, troops who would never hear a shot fired in anger. We went off and left all that stuff for the Russians....Quote:
Originally Posted by firstflabn
I love to read your recollections about your go-round over there Dave...always a good read.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveHH
I remember the amount of Russians hanging around Nha Trang in the early 1990's, on leave from Cam Rahn Bay, referred to asQuote:
Originally Posted by DaveHH
"Americans without money" by the locals back then...
Our main camp was at Nha Trang next door to 5th SF HQ. We also had detachments all over II Corps. Nha Trang was like Carmel to the Viets. Before the war people would send the family up there on the train from Saigon. Beautiful beaches, wonderful swimming in 70 degree water , sharks up the ying yang. The South China Sea was fished clean around there. Nice old French city, cozy and safe. The VC used it for an R&R city too. If you screwed around with the Viets, cheated them out of money, messed with their kids, they'd kill you. If you didn't, everything was Numba One.
The Viets were wonderful people, attractive, smart, sophisticated. The farmers would come in to sell a pig or something like that and you see two men holding hands walking along, peeing on the side of a building. The wives walking along behind them. VC everywhere. If they liked you and you treated people with respect they left you alone. The guy who was in charge of the laundry girls back in the camp was an ex-Viet minh officer. He always wore shorts and a french bush hat. He had a little brass commie horn that he would blow. He and I would play baccarat and smoke the packs of cigarettes I'd give him. Talk for an hour and neither one of us understanding what was said but communicating beautifully. I got my laundry done first class and he'd tell me every time the VC came "VC come tonight" and everyone was gone from that camp by 5 pm. He was never wrong. We lived in 10 man squad tents with the sides tied open. The latrine was a box with six holes cut in it. 500 men used that latrine. Water was a little tanker trailer "Water Buffalo" it would sit out there in that tropic sun and get nice and toasty warm which would bring out the wonderful clorox flavor. You wouldn't give this to your dog. The shower was a concrete box with 1/2" pipes with no nozzles. The water was like white paint, a mixture of soap, skin and spit that was pumped up and reused over and over again. All over were signs: "Do not drink, do not brush your teeth with this water" Guys kept coming down with Hepatitis until they tore that wreck down and built a decent shower. We had it made, semi-housecats- we only had about 7-8 guys killed that year. After I left, they killed our Command Sergeant Major Chris Zeitlow with a claymore. I was so glad to get out of there and out of the Army after 22 months. I had lucked out, because I was drafted in Aug 65 they put me in the signal corps. If I had been drafted 6 months later I would have been in the infantry and knowing me I probably would have had a very bad time. I'm 6'4" when a squad is moving are they going to shoot a short guy? Nope the big guys had the pig guns and the RTOs were next to the officers. I wasn't supposed to die.
Command Sergeant Major Chris Zeitlow
http://thewall-usa.com/guest.asp?curpage=1&recid=58119
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...17172332-1.jpg
That damned war dragged on and on... I didn't get there until 1971 - and by then it was pretty clear that it was winding down... Da Nang was the farthest south I ever got (after coming into Bien Hoa then getting stuffed into a Herky bird for the trip to the north... I was attached to 101Abn (no I was not a jumper) and the loneliest I ever felt was in the summer of 1971 up at a place called Dong Ha ... after the Marines had left... I was just a pencil pusher, not a combat type at all... Only took incoming once or twice -just enough to learn that I didn't like it at all... For those looking backward all these years later - the figure that I heard was seven to one... Seven troops in rear areas for every one guy out in the bush...
Terrible drug use, racial problems, discipline problems in rear areas back then (it mirrored what was going down back home...). When I returned and mustered out, I tried to tell my Dad about the bad things going on -and he didn't want to hear it (career Engineer officer, volunteered for the draft in 1942 then did it the hard way for 28 years...). You could tell it hurt him badly. I was a real Army brat - and grew up around the world back when service families followed their Dad's assignments everywhere. Going in the service myself was like growing up finally - and doing some payback for all of the life I'd led up until then. I was very lucky since my family stopped me from joining up right after high school - in 1966. Doubt I'd have survived back then...
With seven grandkids now I hope their generation is able to avoid war - but there are some things worth fighting for.... Vietnam was not one of them. If anyone had bothered to take a serious look at their history (more than 500 years of war.... and all of their cultural heroes were warriors - they fought everyone that tried to invade them and just never let up until they won... ) we should have run the other way before allowing ourselves to be sucked into that situation. To this day, all the countries around Vietnam are scared to death of them - for good cause...
The Vietnamese started out as so-so soldiers, against the French after Giap ran a few thousand through the mill at Dien Bien Phu they learned fast and died quietly. By the time we got around to our war with them, they were good, really good. The Viets were fighting the Chinese for centuries, they took over Cambodia for a while too. The Chinese are treated like 2nd class citizens by the Viets and by most people in the area. After we left, the Chinese would fake some border insult and then run their army in there to basically see how it would do, logistics, medical combat etc, They got their butts kicked every time. It was a sad showing and points out that the kid off the farm makes a way better soldier than the student. In my opinion, the Chinese army is very poor, nowhere near what people think they are. Check out the photos of the Indian Sikhs and their boys when they have some border incident with the Chinese Army. These large bearded smiling guys with giant knives and the Chinese Officers look like they are going to cry.
A bit of additional history on the Viets.. (I did a year in language school before heading to my "senior trip"... guess what language...). Along with constant conflicts (mostly with the Chinese) for hundreds of years... there were elements in-country that fought the French off and on during the entire colonial period. That was actually when a French priest was the first to reduce Vietnamese to a written language - that's why to this day their language is written in the roman alphabet...
At any rate, whoever occupied that area (called Indochina for decades before "VietNam" came along) quickly learned that they'd never be free of very bad things happening until they left that part of the world. Along comes WW II and the Japanese conquer the entire region and found the Viet Minh to be a real problem (and of course we were supplying them...). Along with our supplies the Allies promised them their freedom. Of course after we won the war the French reneged on that promise and took over again... The guerrilla war started up all over again until the French were badly beaten in 1954 at Dienben Phu. As a last trick the French then established two countries instead of allowing them to have one country - and that was the seeds of what we stepped into all those years ago...
My Dad did two tours there -1965 in civvies, stationed in Saigon - then again in 1969 at Camh Ranh Bay... He said the only way to get out of that mess was to declare a victory - then run like hell for the airplanes -but make sure you had covering fire all the way to the planes since we'd be needing it...
Book: "Strange Ground: an Oral history of Americans in Vietnam" by Harry Maurer. The best book on the history of Vietnam I've ever read. It is a story that vets should read.
When I went to Vietnam first in the early 1990's, I flew into Tan Son Nhat (the airport was still bullet pock marked then and you taxied past derelict C130's etc on your way to the old terminal.
My first brush with Vietnamese semi officialdom was wondering around the periphery of Ton Son Nhat to the gates of the small museum that was on the air force side of the airfield.
No problems getting in for free, but it was different on leaving, I had a cocked Type 56 pointed at me and asked to 'donate' towards the museum, a $10 donation was made and everyone was happy...
Bureaucracy was stifling, everyone was considered a 'threat' to national security and generally followed around.
That said, the people in general, were nothing but friendly, very pro western in general and pro American.
My small group managed to get down into the delta, it was mainly off limits at the time due to cross border raids by the Kahmer Rouge...
I had a chat with some of the first US military personnel back in Vietnam in a Hanoi bar, they were mustering for their first MIA recovery missions, along with their Vietnamese colleagues.
We treked slowly north up country, mainly via Highway 1 and finally, over the border into China at Lang Son.
The Lang Son border was 'very' heavily armed, bristling with ZSU cannons, SAMs of every description, artillery and well dug in troops and tanks.
You had to walk through them, walking a half mile long dirt track while being watched by both sides, you got the impression a missplaced fart would have started a shooting war!
It's not surprising, the Chinese pushed through Lang Son in 79 heading towards Hanoi in massive numbers ... And had their *** handed to them by the Vietnamese.
I remember talking to a few Chinese veterans of the 79 campaign, they said it was absolutely horrendous and the Vietnamese fought like Tigers.
Today things have changed hugely, Vietnam is an up and coming country, very pro western and part of an international alliance keeping the Chinese in check.
No better friend - no worse enemy... Where did I hear that said?
One other minor point my Dad made a point of - all those years ago... "Kid, we're killing ten of them for every one of ours.... At that rate we'll quit first"
That's exactly how it went down... Not an accident that Vietnamese refugees coming to the states with no English at all would have kids that became valedictorians at their high schools years later...
And all we do is make sure they get fed, even when school is out. Conditioning them to expect to be fed, clothed and housed by the government for the rest of their lives.Quote:
Originally Posted by lemaymiami
You're wrong on that one Floyd. They're one of the hardest working immigrant classes that I've ever seen. - Bob
I meant most of our public schools in general. Not any one particular ethnic group.Quote:
Originally Posted by USGI
Sorry, I sounded a little bit harsh. I totally agree with you about the "conditioning" thing. It's the same here, they even hand out meals for the weekends, too. Their parents drive up in late model SUV's to pick up the meals - don't even need to take the kids along with them. Just tell how many kids they have, and pick up that many meals. - Bob
The southern Vietnamese struggled under the yoke of communism and when the Vietnamese government reasised
(very sensibility) that they couldn't rely forever on Russia and needed to pivot towards the West, they allowed private enterprise again.
The natural business acumen of the Vietnamese came to the surface and they haven't looked back, economically they are going from strength to strength.
Same sort of (people/government) deal as China, make a fortune, buy a big house and a fleet of Mercedes, knock yourself out .... But don't get involved in politics, leave that to the Politburo in Hanoi....
To get back on the original topic... My first carbine I owned in 1982 was an unmolested, early featured Winchester with flip sights. It easily bounced a pop can with every shot at 100 yards. That was the best shooting carbine I ever owned. My 1943 Correct inland I got back in about 2012/2013 was a solid 2.5 to 3 MOA shooter from the bench. Of the dozen or so I have had, 4 MOA would be average. My 68 year old eyes are a limiting factor, though. I used to enjoy shooting empty 12 gauge hulls off the cross bar of the 25 yard target frame with my carbines!Quote:
Originally Posted by mrclark303
Many thanks for that. I 'finally' got to shoot the Carbine on Tuesday, my local outdoor range finally reopened with appropriate Covid restrictions.Quote:
Originally Posted by imarangemaster
So, booked in, just me and my Carbine and the wildlife.
Tested the NOS M2 outfit too.
What a lovely rifle to shoot, I tied a cloth around the leather pad on M1A1 to protect the now fragile leather before slipping on the twin mag pouch.
It had the effect of making a great cheek pad. The rifle shot very well, I could only go back to 50 yards, but it was printing two inch groups and I am very happy with that.
I remembered to aim low, following the group advance...
What a lovely mild mannered rifle and cartridge to shoot, very light kick with more of a muzzle flip than anything.
Very, very enjoyable and I have to say, I actually found the M1A1 stock more comfortable than the M2 stock.
Back to the range this evening guys....:)