M1 Carbine accuracy

[firstflabn]

I simply mean that as designed, it was meant mainly for rear echelon troops.

That's incorrect. Take a look at the first page of War Baby! Development of the carbine was requested in 1940 by the Chief of Infantry to arm personnel of the infantry regiment. In the 1940 T/O, a bit over one third of GIs in an infantry regiment were armed with pistols.

[DaveHH]

1st Infantry Division received carbines on 10 Jul 42, shortly before embarking for UK. Their 'thrusting' began in earnest on 8 Nov 42.
What 'wartime demands' are you referring to? 1st ID looks pretty 'front line' to me.

I just read the history of the landing and subsequent battles up into Italy, called "An Army At Dawn" by Rick Atkinson. It was a real eye opener, the fighting was much, much more intense and deadly as I was led to believe. Thousands of NG Battalions lost their lives being led by Bob the guy who owned the gas station and was the Lt Colonel. One of the few professional Regular Army units was the First Infantry Div. They were trained better than the NG units but still, lack of experience made the thing rough. Bad maps, drunk officers and fighting crack German units that had been fighting in Russia. The 1st loved their General Terry Allen and Ike sacked him which was total BS. Assistant Div CO was Theodore Roosevelt he was sacked too. He loved the new Carbine and shot a lot of Bedoins and rogue aux troops who were pillaging around after the Germans cleared the A.O.
If you are interested: "The British are Coming" by Rick Atkinson the real truth about the Minutemen and how those farmers and blacksmiths kick the living crap out of the Thin Red Line.

[imarangemaster]

Ther carbine was very effective for close up and personal fighting. When used as a rifle at rifle ranges (200+ yards) it did not do as well. My dad fought with an M1 Carbine on Iwo Jima and came home in one piece. He loved the carbine and said it "never failed him."

I carried an M1 Carbine a s a patrol carbine for much of my 20 years as an LEO. Never had a problem qualifying with it, and never felt under-gunned with it.

[firstflabn]

You'll enjoy Volumes 2 and 3 then, Dave. Even knowing how the story comes out, while reading the first book it is difficult to see how Ike survives all the early SNAFUs. With Atkinson's novelist's eye for narrative and a great talent at research, I had to ration my reading of the trilogy so as not to use it all up too soon.

The 1st ID's 1 Aug 43 G-4 Report includes this: "After 5 months of continuous combat, the equipment of the Division, particularly motor vehicles, weapons and communications equipment required complete overhaul by 3rd and 4th echelon maintanance, during which a great quantity was salvaged and replaced."

Looks like those (presumably) 4 digit Inlands received in Jul 42 got used up or spread around pretty quick.

[DaveHH]

You'll enjoy Volumes 2 and 3 then, Dave. Even knowing how the story comes out, while reading the first book it is difficult to see how Ike survives all the early SNAFUs. With Atkinson's novelist's eye for narrative and a great talent at research, I had to ration my reading of the trilogy so as not to use it all up too soon.

The 1st ID's 1 Aug 43 G-4 Report includes this: "After 5 months of continuous combat, the equipment of the Division, particularly motor vehicles, weapons and communications equipment required complete overhaul by 3rd and 4th echelon maintanance, during which a great quantity was salvaged and replaced."

Looks like those (presumably) 4 digit Inlands received in Jul 42 got used up or spread around pretty quick.

I have and have read all three, well written and this author uses a lot of information to tell the story. Stuff I've never heard about after reading history for 60+ years. Like the general in charge of logistics that has his own piano hauled around everywhere he goes. Amazing. I agree, I went through the trilogy like Sherman through the South. Made me read "The Long Gray Line" in a lot of ways a disturbing book. I was over there '66-67 and served under a lot of West Pointers. "In the company of soldiers" was not as interesting, but then compared to other conflicts, it wasn't much of a war. Petraus reminded me of the staff weenies longing for a c rat can cut and getting shot at so they could get their CIB and PH. By mid 67 when I could see the Army turning Vietnam into the big PX, I knew we would lose that war. I used to run convoys down Hwy 1 to Cam Rahn and that place was like state side. Paved freeways, troops who would never hear a shot fired in anger. We went off and left all that stuff for the Russians....

[browningautorifle]

I was over there '66-67

I love to read your recollections about your go-round over there Dave...always a good read.

[mrclark303]

I have and have read all three, well written and this author uses a lot of information to tell the story. Stuff I've never heard about after reading history for 60+ years. Like the general in charge of logistics that has his own piano hauled around everywhere he goes. Amazing. I agree, I went through the trilogy like Sherman through the South. Made me read "The Long Gray Line" in a lot of ways a disturbing book. I was over there '66-67 and served under a lot of West Pointers. "In the company of soldiers" was not as interesting, but then compared to other conflicts, it wasn't much of a war. Petraus reminded me of the staff weenies longing for a c rat can cut and getting shot at so they could get their CIB and PH. By mid 67 when I could see the Army turning Vietnam into the big PX, I knew we would lose that war. I used to run convoys down Hwy 1 to Cam Rahn and that place was like state side. Paved freeways, troops who would never hear a shot fired in anger. We went off and left all that stuff for the Russians....

I remember the amount of Russians hanging around Nha Trang in the early 1990's, on leave from Cam Rahn Bay, referred to as
"Americans without money" by the locals back then...

[DaveHH]

Our main camp was at Nha Trang next door to 5th SF HQ. We also had detachments all over II Corps. Nha Trang was like Carmel to the Viets. Before the war people would send the family up there on the train from Saigon. Beautiful beaches, wonderful swimming in 70 degree water , sharks up the ying yang. The South China Sea was fished clean around there. Nice old French city, cozy and safe. The VC used it for an R&R city too. If you screwed around with the Viets, cheated them out of money, messed with their kids, they'd kill you. If you didn't, everything was Numba One.
The Viets were wonderful people, attractive, smart, sophisticated. The farmers would come in to sell a pig or something like that and you see two men holding hands walking along, peeing on the side of a building. The wives walking along behind them. VC everywhere. If they liked you and you treated people with respect they left you alone. The guy who was in charge of the laundry girls back in the camp was an ex-Viet minh officer. He always wore shorts and a french bush hat. He had a little brass commie horn that he would blow. He and I would play baccarat and smoke the packs of cigarettes I'd give him. Talk for an hour and neither one of us understanding what was said but communicating beautifully. I got my laundry done first class and he'd tell me every time the VC came "VC come tonight" and everyone was gone from that camp by 5 pm. He was never wrong. We lived in 10 man squad tents with the sides tied open. The latrine was a box with six holes cut in it. 500 men used that latrine. Water was a little tanker trailer "Water Buffalo" it would sit out there in that tropic sun and get nice and toasty warm which would bring out the wonderful clorox flavor. You wouldn't give this to your dog. The shower was a concrete box with 1/2" pipes with no nozzles. The water was like white paint, a mixture of soap, skin and spit that was pumped up and reused over and over again. All over were signs: "Do not drink, do not brush your teeth with this water" Guys kept coming down with Hepatitis until they tore that wreck down and built a decent shower. We had it made, semi-housecats- we only had about 7-8 guys killed that year. After I left, they killed our Command Sergeant Major Chris Zeitlow with a claymore. I was so glad to get out of there and out of the Army after 22 months. I had lucked out, because I was drafted in Aug 65 they put me in the signal corps. If I had been drafted 6 months later I would have been in the infantry and knowing me I probably would have had a very bad time. I'm 6'4" when a squad is moving are they going to shoot a short guy? Nope the big guys had the pig guns and the RTOs were next to the officers. I wasn't supposed to die.

[painter777]

Command Sergeant Major Chris Zeitlow

http://thewall-usa.com/guest.asp?curpage=1&recid=58119

[lemaymiami]

That damned war dragged on and on... I didn't get there until 1971 - and by then it was pretty clear that it was winding down... Da Nang was the farthest south I ever got (after coming into Bien Hoa then getting stuffed into a Herky bird for the trip to the north... I was attached to 101Abn (no I was not a jumper) and the loneliest I ever felt was in the summer of 1971 up at a place called Dong Ha ... after the Marines had left... I was just a pencil pusher, not a combat type at all... Only took incoming once or twice -just enough to learn that I didn't like it at all... For those looking backward all these years later - the figure that I heard was seven to one... Seven troops in rear areas for every one guy out in the bush...

Terrible drug use, racial problems, discipline problems in rear areas back then (it mirrored what was going down back home...). When I returned and mustered out, I tried to tell my Dad about the bad things going on -and he didn't want to hear it (career Engineer officer, volunteered for the draft in 1942 then did it the hard way for 28 years...). You could tell it hurt him badly. I was a real Army brat - and grew up around the world back when service families followed their Dad's assignments everywhere. Going in the service myself was like growing up finally - and doing some payback for all of the life I'd led up until then. I was very lucky since my family stopped me from joining up right after high school - in 1966. Doubt I'd have survived back then...

With seven grandkids now I hope their generation is able to avoid war - but there are some things worth fighting for.... Vietnam was not one of them. If anyone had bothered to take a serious look at their history (more than 500 years of war.... and all of their cultural heroes were warriors - they fought everyone that tried to invade them and just never let up until they won... ) we should have run the other way before allowing ourselves to be sucked into that situation. To this day, all the countries around Vietnam are scared to death of them - for good cause...