Pre-War Mosin Nagant Stock Finish

I got lucky and picked up a 1930 91/30 yesterday (yep, one of the very first 91/30s) at an auction. The bluing looks great (re-arsenal?) and it is in a pre-war stock. The problem is the stock has been "bubba painted" with a spray paint camo pattern (I'm sure it fooled a lot of deer!). I have reviewed earlier threads but none of them mention what the original finish on a pre-war Mosin Nagant stock should be. The stock on this gun needs to be stripped and I want to return it to its original finish. Can anyone advise what that would be or where I can find the info on it? I know it is not that nasty red shellac finish. Thank you for your help!

I should mention it is all matching (receiver, butt plate, bolt and magazine floor plate).

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Originally Posted by Singer B

Can anyone advise what that would be or where I can find the info on it?

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Varnish. If you don't want to make your own from chips, you can use 'Tried & True Original Wood Finish' Rocklers sells it

EDIT: Varnish is -- WRONG -- See my last post below

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Originally Posted by usabaker

Varnish. If you don't want to make your own from chips, you can use 'Tried & True Original Wood Finish' Rocklers sells it

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Excellent, thank you. The other threads didn't identify what they used so I figured I would ask again.

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Originally Posted by Singer B

The other threads didn't identify what they used so I figured I would ask again.

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The original Soviet finish changed in formulas over the years of manufacturing but all of them were made from either amber and later copal with linseed or hemp oil and a solvent. The amber and copal is why you see a lot, well most, of the stocks with flaking issues. I have a paper on the Mosin Nagant finish someplace, I'll have to look for it. I put it away for safekeeping and I'm not sure where that is anymore LOL.

I'm sure you will find others with a different take on the finish here, my information is from being right where you are now and looking for the "actual" soviet finish. I am by no means a Soviet Rifle finish expert. But do know that Tried & True Original Wood Finish is the best choice for what you want in MY OPTION if you are not into making your own finishes from raw materials.

Added Note: I didn't mention that Tried & True Original Wood Finish is not a 'spar varnish' which is closer to the soviet finish. Tried & True Original Wood Finish has a polymerized linseed and beeswax base formula. It will wear better and not peal or flake over time. If you want a 'true' varnish then get something with a high content of spar in it.

Singer B, I had a brain FART... because I have been fixated on the Russian Revolution period lately my brain did not process your question correctly. It was not until I was driving down the street I realized PRE-WAR; what you didn't say, and the part that didn't register in my pee-brain is how far back pre-war did you mean also overlooked the whole part about being made in 1930.

You see, as I said the original Soviet finish changed in formulas over the years especially between 1891 and 1941. Up until around 1911/12, the formulas centered turpentine varnishes made up of amber or copal with oil like linseed, poppy, or nut oils. After that, the finishes were primarily a shellac type finish. Yes, the reddish color. So really what I am saying is what year is your rifle will really be the deciding factor in its stock finish. AND THEN, you have to take into account any arsenal refurbish stamps to indicate when the stock was refinished (shellac over the varnish or oil finish in some cases)

Yours is 1930, but are there arsenal marks? More then like likely the finish was shellac. How the finish was applied is a WHOLE other thing. Sorry for my oversite.

No problem, you are at ludicrous speed on this while I'm just backing the Yugo out of the garage. This rifle is pretty cool, in that 1930 was the first year of manufacture for the 91/30, so this is one of the first 40,000 made. I can't see any refurbishment marks on it since whoever had it applied some other type of varnish and the camo paint patches on it pretty thick. It is all matching so I'm thinking it may have lived a privileged life somewhere until Bubba painted it. I'll strip it tomorrow and see if there are any refurb marks on it. A really nice rifle like this truly needs to be put back to it's original look and feel.

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Originally Posted by Singer B

in that 1930 was the first year of manufacture for the 91/30, so this is one of the first 40,000 made.

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She is a pretty rifle, Hex at that. I have a host load of Mosin Nagant, all different variants. two still in the cosmoline. I have some info on them if you need any. Just PM me if you want what I have electronically and ill email the stuff to you.

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Originally Posted by usabaker

She is a pretty rifle, Hex at that. I have a host load of Mosin Nagant, all different variants. two still in the cosmoline. I have some info on them if you need any. Just PM me if you want what I have electronically and ill email the stuff to you.

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Will do, thanks!

I found this tonight on a GunsBoard Forum from 2016. I would assume the "boiled oil" is BLO?

All prewar instruction mention VK-1 (including repair manuals). 1930 production specification (for just adopted M91\30) mention that walnut stocks must be soaked with boiled oil, birch stocks were painted to the colour of walnut (with mordant), then soaked with boiled oil, than polished. So in 1930's finish was changed. I have no doubts that some stocks in Izhevsk during war were issued without laquering. I have one like this, seems that it is soaked with boiled oil (and it is not the only that I saw).

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Originally Posted by Singer B

I found this tonight on a GunsBoard Forum from 2016. I would assume the "boiled oil" is BLO?

All prewar instruction mention VK-1 (including repair manuals). 1930 production specification (for just adopted M91\30) mention that walnut stocks must be soaked with boiled oil, birch stocks were painted to the colour of walnut (with mordant), then soaked with boiled oil, than polished. So in 1930's finish was changed. I have no doubts that some stocks in Izhevsk during war were issued without laquering. I have one like this, seems that it is soaked with boiled oil (and it is not the only that I saw).

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This is interesting, I have never seen this before. Now I'm going to have to go back into research mode. Thanks...

Just a quick update, after removing the action, you can see that this stock was red shellacked at some previous time. It is the light colored wood (maybe birch) underneath. The current finish seem to be a combination of some type of varnish with standard green spray paint over it. Whatever it is, the Citristrip is having a difficult time removing it!

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Originally Posted by Singer B

he current finish seem to be a combination of some type of varnish with standard green spray paint over it. Whatever it is, the Citristrip is having a difficult time removing it!
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Rub some coconut or olive oil on the stock, then wipe it off. Then use mineral spirits to remove the paint. The coconut or olive oil will help protect the existing finish. I hear GOO GONE works too but I have not tried it. The stock is Baltic Birch

You were right, it is a nice light birch. You never know what you are going to find when you strip a stock. Strangely, there are no arsenal or refurbishment stamps that I can find. There is one strange mark that I found on the bottom of the grip behind the trigger well (possibly a small T, see photo). It has several interesting repairs that could have been done at an arsenal but nothing else.

It is my personal belief that Mosin Nagant stocks pre war were basically just oil finished. Lot of debate on this but there are several reasons that lends serious credibility to this. Finn rifles never have shellac. Spanish rifles never have shellac. Wartime photos show a mix, some with, some without. It is believed the red shellac replaced oil once the Germans invaded because they wanted them to get out of the factories as fast as possible and soaking in oil takes time. Slapping on the shellac was fast and gave some limited protection. Postwar refurbs stayed with the shellac. I've also talked with a lot of Russians about this at re-enactments and they concurred that original finish was oil. I personally own a Finnish 91/30, no shellac. I also own an 1891 no shellac that went through Austrian and Bulgarian hands before arriving in the US. I reviewed a lot of period photos and the rifles are either dull (oil) or have the worst shellac finish possible as the crap only lasted a few days in the field. The finish is severely flaked. Unfortunately we may never have a definitive answer on this because the Soviets didn't keep good records and those they did they don't share so it's more of a guessing game than anything else.

Along with the research conducted by you and usabaker, my own indicates that many believe "oil" or "boiled oil" was the factory preference before the war. I even found one reference to the wood stocks being roasted at 360 to 400 degrees. I decided to go with the BLO treatment. The stock has been stripped and the 3rd coat went on today. After 7 or 8 coats, we will see how it looks. Each coat is being hand rubbed to generate heat during the application. After each coat has dried, it is rubbed down with 0000 steel wool wiped again with paper towels. I'm hoping it darkens up a little more but it will probably take a few years of oxidation to reach the correct color.

I refinished one of mine. I used BLO. It was one of the first rifles I did this with and I put a lot of coats on it. Used to sit and watch TV in the evenings and rub one on with my fingers. I honestly don't know how many coats I put on it but when I was done, it had a finish that looked a lot like the shellac but will never flake off. Just be very careful with those rags. BLO can spontaneously combust.

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Originally Posted by Singer B

"boiled oil" was the factory preference before the war.

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The definition of Bold Linseed oil is very loose in the text you will find. Early Boiled Linseed oil refers to the oil being utterly boiledd at temperatures over 400 (465) degrees. This is not true with modern BLO that you purchase in a hardware store. I doubt the BLO that you are using is the one in the text you read because 'driers' (lead, cobalt, manganese salts, etc..) were not introduce until the 1950's, Becareful with that stuff, it can cause really bad stuff to happen to your body.

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Originally Posted by usabaker

The definition of Bold Linseed oil is very loose in the text you will find. Early Boiled Linseed oil refers to the oil being utterly boiledd at temperatures over 400 (465) degrees. This is not true with modern BLO that you purchase in a hardware store. I doubt the BLO that you are using is the one in the text you read because 'driers' (lead, cobalt, manganese salts, etc..) were not introduce until the 1950's, Becareful with that stuff, it can cause really bad stuff to happen to your body.

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Definitely! Do the best we can with what we got. Lots of clean up!

Attachment 109067Attachment 109068Attachment 109069


Well, after 8 hand-rubbed coats of BLO and 0000 steel wool rubdowns between each coat, here is the finished product. I'm hoping it will darken a little more as time goes by but it is definitely an improvement over the "bubba" paint job. Hopefully I will get a chance to shoot it this week!

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Originally Posted by Singer B

definitely an improvement over the "bubba" paint job. Hopefully I will get a chance to shoot it this week!

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1000% improvement over the paint job. Nice work! she looks beautiful.

Thanks, I had some good advice! Now I just hope it shoots!

I stripped all of mine Mosin 91/30 and an M44 and went straight BLO (boiled linseed oil) lots of coats required in my opinion better than stain/paint or that nasty red shellac, That is MY OPINION. Did the same to my Steyr M95 and Steyr Budapest, got rid of stains and BLO my Arisakas are next. BLO has proven to be athe best wood finish. MY OPINION

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Originally Posted by Steyr Man 146

I stripped all of mine Mosin 91/30 and an M44 and went straight BLO (boiled linseed oil) lots of coats required in my opinion better than stain/paint or that nasty red shellac, That is MY OPINION. Did the same to my Steyr M95 and Steyr Budapest, got rid of stains and BLO my Arisakas are next. BLO has proven to be athe best wood finish. MY OPINION

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It has worked well on the rifles I have used it on. I dont use it on my collectible milsurps unless it was the original finish that came in the rifle. I wouldn't use it on an Arisaka if that rifle has the orginal Japanese finish since you can't replicate it. For non-milsurp rifles, I use it all the time since it is really good looking and feels great. This Mosin was definitely "bubba" painted and based upon what I could learn, BLO was the closest to the original pre-war Mosin finish.

Step away from teh Arisakas!

If yours have a "reddish hue", and are in overall "excellent" condition, with the timber slightly rough, they are likely as "original" as you will get.

The Japanese used Potassium Permanganate (Condy's Crystals) as a fungicide on a LOT of their woodwork, hence the "reddish hue".

Most people see Arisakas that are pretty much "black", but that is a result of a lot of "fondling in the field" and being outdoors in "interesting places". Being tossed into piles for decades in dodgy warehouses, post war probably didn't help, either.

Apparently, they also played with Teak as a furniture; tough as old boots but harder to work and somewhat denser than Walnut.

Me I prefer BLO/TRU-OIL on these older rifles as a finish I strip off the varnish, leave the wood natural and BLO (Boiled-Linseed oil) Takes close to 2 weeks it is worth it. And then TRU-OIL another 3-4 days I do not worry about it and awesome. As far as "Original Finnish" that is subject to whom/what you believe Me of German/Finnish Decent. Listened to dad/grandad/great grandad as they would speak of WWI and WWII the weapons production lines the stocks were cut set for receivers and screws then dunked into boiling linseed oil, dried,assembled and sent out that was it. Varnish/Shellac was an after war Preservative most soldiers returning home counted on the rifles for hunting, supplying the family meat needs. Keeping Linseed oil boiling or hot enough can get flammable Red Shellac Total American hang up Russia did not use it was the importers trying to add $3 or $4 dollars to overall cost for a nickles worth of red shellac.

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Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz

Step away from teh Arisakas!

If yours have a "reddish hue", and are in overall "excellent" condition, with the timber slightly rough, they are likely as "original" as you will get.

The Japanese used Potassium Permanganate (Condy's Crystals) as a fungicide on a LOT of their woodwork, hence the "reddish hue".

Most people see Arisakas that are pretty much "black", but that is a result of a lot of "fondling in the field" and being outdoors in "interesting places". Being tossed into piles for decades in dodgy warehouses, post war probably didn't help, either.

Apparently, they also played with Teak as a furniture; tough as old boots but harder to work and somewhat denser than Walnut.

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I just soap/water had to clean it up my stocks the Black you mentioned I have not applied a Finnish after cleaned dried the first one I accepted as being as it should (Dirt, Grease, Powder burnt/unburnt, caked mud, dirt) simple green hot water that was it after it dried I did nada just reassembled, looks awesome Bruce in Oz I wished Reddish hues (did no cutting or sanding.)

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Originally Posted by Steyr Man 146

Red Shellac Total American hang up Russia did not use it was the importers trying to add $3 or $4 dollars to overall cost for a nickles worth of red shellac.

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Not sure about this statement. I have a number of Russian Arsenal refinished Mosin Nagant's that have the red varnish and came that way directly from the crate shipped from Mother Russia.

Here's one of mine with BLO.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../DsEHOy7-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../3KqagqR-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

Here's one of mine with BLO.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../DsEHOy7-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../3KqagqR-1.jpg

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That turned out really nice!!

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Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz

Step away from teh Arisakas!

If yours have a "reddish hue", and are in overall "excellent" condition, with the timber slightly rough, they are likely as "original" as you will get.

The Japanese used Potassium Permanganate (Condy's Crystals) as a fungicide on a LOT of their woodwork, hence the "reddish hue".

Most people see Arisakas that are pretty much "black", but that is a result of a lot of "fondling in the field" and being outdoors in "interesting places". Being tossed into piles for decades in dodgy warehouses, post war probably didn't help, either.

Apparently, they also played with Teak as a furniture; tough as old boots but harder to work and somewhat denser than Walnut.

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Do you happen to know what the potassium permeganate was dissolved in/mixed with to produce a liquid for application? It appears to be readily available as a powder, would love to know if there is a way to mix it up for touch up or full restoration work.

Whatever it is is related to poison ivy. Urushi oil or laquer. Will cause a skin reaction in some people if you sand the stocks.