sad looking 1903a3

I've been looking for the right 1903a3 that needs some TLC to bring back - in my mind I always thought I'd find a sporterized something, preferably a smith corona.
I came across this recent wildfire victim today
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/883766437
It's kindof speaking to me - it would clearly require all the extreme measures I've wanted to learn more about and try for myself - electrolysis to clean it up, a new barrel and some new furniture and possibly other parts - careful fitting of a new stock, etc, and parkerizing
What worries me is re-heat-treating. Has anyone ever attempted this before? I imagine it can be done. Small furnaces for making blades are easy to come by, and temperature control is straight forward with todays laser thermometers. On the other hand, maybe there is a foundry somewhere that would do it for a fee?

Please don't yell at me, I'm not saying it's simple - just first thoughts. I realize there is plenty of science needed to learn before trying - exactly why this appeals to me, and hopefully some others here willing to provide some constructive thoughts. If you want to say "impossible", please elaborate with justification. I'm very interested.

I know there are firearms fire restoration services out there, meaning to some extent, where there's a will there's a way. Considering this one has been heated to the point of the receiver being discolored and pitted, I doubt there would be any re-heat-treating or shooting in its future. It would be a labor intensive and expensive project for a wall hanger, but that's not an un-worthy project. As you said, you'd develop a great deal of experience in certain gunsmithing techniques. If you do end up with it, and take on the project, of course I'd love to follow along.

It's not often thought of this way but the venerable 30-06 cartridge is a pretty powerful little bomb.
I would 100% NOT trust this rifle to contain that bomb again under any circumstance.

1903A3s aren't that expensive. New faces are very expensive.

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Originally Posted by rcathey

It's not often thought of this way but the venerable 30-06 cartridge is a pretty powerful little bomb.
I would 100% NOT trust this rifle to contain that bomb again under any circumstance.

1903A3s aren't that expensive. New faces are very expensive.

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Salvaging the receiver I think would be the only must-do, all else is replacable (I remember a joke that may apply to some your thoughts about "Washington's axe" which had the handle replaced 200 years ago, and the blade replaced 100 years ago).
The real question is whether it is possible to accurately re-heat treat the receiver to factory specs - and of course if anyone has done this. I would not take on the project for a wall hanger. I fully agree that faces are expensive - which is why the minimum standard would have to be as good as factory specs. I'm not worried about putting money in to the rifle, as long as it is indeed possible. What would be involved?
To champ's point, the disfiguration of the receiver might make any salvage out of the question. It seems like there is a lot of material converted to scaling in the fire, making it too far gone. I'm guessing a charred stock wasn't removed, but completely burned up in the fire, which gives some idea of what the rifle went through.

EDIT: A bit of googling in other forums turned up http://www.industrialheattreat.com/AboutUs.html, which provides heat-treating services for gunsmiths. I can think of better ways to throw away ~100+ bucks (price+shipping+ffl fee) than giving this a try - unless of course there is some optimism in the group to convince me otherwise.

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Originally Posted by ssgross

whether it is possible to accurately re-heat treat the receiver to factory specs

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With all the times that has been discussed, I've never heard any solution of anyone willing to undertake. Only conjecture.

I wouldn't buy any part of that rifle or bayonet for any reason. It's completely cooked.

Thought I'd save a set of pics here because once that sale ends the pics will disappear, we can look back this way.

IMHO that is too far gone to ever see gun powder again but you sure will have bragging rights if you can bring it back to a wall mounting. The only other suggestion is if you must start this project buy it now.......from what i have seen on gun broker is things selling for unreal prices not of this world:eek:. You will have the admiration of thousands if you make that zombie rise

Cast it in a block of clear resin for a display piece. Or clean it totally and see what it looks like. However, trusting the strength of the steel after the heat treatment it already has gone through does not gender good feelings.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

With all the times that has been discussed, I've never heard any solution of anyone willing to undertake. Only conjecture.

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Well, wishful thinking together with beer have produced worse ideas:)
The other evening, beer in hand, I tried to explain the situation to my wife as "if it can't be done, I'll at least have one really cool paper weight"...to which the reply was that I didn't need another paper weight, no way in hell it could be taken to the office as a cool conversation paper weight in today's world, and I could, after all, instead spend the $100+ after shipping and transfer fee (yep, still requires ffl) on good parts to complete the other worn out milsurps sitting in my shop which have a much better chance at new life.
I've taken her advice and passed on the paperweight.

To brownings' point, I have read a great deal of internet speculation about re-heat treating - none of course as cordial and well mannered as here. The discussion is typically around whether a low numbered receiver can be treated, and then religious points of view taking either side or the middle. I'll leave the question of metallurgy and what is possible to the science books. It was nice to find that there is at least one company out there can properly heat-treat gun metals as a service. I'm sure they know what they are doing, which is why they have been able to make a business of it.

you chose wisely

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Originally Posted by sloporsche

you chose wisely

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You did tempt me further for a moment with grandeur thoughts of being king of the zombies. I've been known to chase the impossible in my day job and even win from time to time, but I don't think I'll be quitting for a second career as zombie overload anytime soon.

A sectioned display rifle is all I could see coming out if that mess.

with a plaque ................"you should see the other guy's"

my first real job of sorts as a gunsmith was to do fire and flood restoration and or repair.. for a large insurance company. my guideline was, if the springs are dead, the rifle or pistol is dead.. no ifs and or butts about it.. keep this in mind,.. you have a 46000 PSI bomb in your hands, and 10 inches from you face... some lessons dont need to be learned... personally, i would have welded this thing shut, or cut the feed ramp area out of this action so it cant ever be fired

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Originally Posted by chuckindenver

personally, i would have welded this thing shut, or cut the feed ramp area out of this action so it cant ever be fired

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Eventually some enterprising sort will buy it and bead blast and park. It'll look perfect. Put replacement parts on and it's as new. Stand by after that.

it's good you made note of the serial number by preserving the pics. I'm surprised the bid keeps going up.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Eventually some enterprising sort will buy it and bead blast and park. It'll look perfect. Put replacement parts on and it's as new. Stand by after that.

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assuming someone makes it look perfect again, new barrel and all, how would one be able to tell? other than, of course, googling turning up this thread with

BUYER BEWARE 1903a3 Springfield serial number 4014675

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Originally Posted by ssgross

new barrel and all

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I wouldn't think anything would need replacing, except springs. Just scrub the bore out with abrasive and make it shine a bit...and the rest complete strip and bead blast. You'd be surprised how beautiful it would be. New wood...and you have a bomb. Chuck has the right idea, render it helpless and then it can't be brought back. It's dangerous, no other way to describe it.

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Originally Posted by ssgross

it's good you made note of the serial number by preserving the pics. I'm surprised the bid keeps going up.

assuming someone makes it look perfect again, new barrel and all, how would one be able to tell? other than, of course, googling turning up this thread with

BUYER BEWARE 1903a3 Springfield serial number 4014675

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i told you....its gun broker .....where you are surprised if you are not surprised by prices

my copy of hatcher's notebook just finally came in the mail. I skipped right to chapter 9 "Receiver Steels and Heat Treatment". More details can be found in a textbook, but Hatcher gives a nice common sense summary that the reason re-heat treating "burnt" steel doesn't work is it produces very variable and uncontrollable results. There was no process to control adding back in carbon acquired during the initial heat treatment (receivers packed in charcoal and heated, carbon is absorbed), and permanently altered or lost during re-heating (as in the wildfire). This was of course the reason their experiments on re-heat treating the low numbers failed in practice. Some receivers came out fine with re-heat treating, others didn't. Their conclusion was there was no way to practically control the results, and so gave up.

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Originally Posted by ssgross

It was nice to find that there is at least one company out there can properly heat-treat gun metals as a service. I'm sure they know what they are doing, which is why they have been able to make a business of it.

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Originally Posted by ssgross

Some receivers came out fine with re-heat treating, others didn't. Their conclusion was there was no way to practically control the results, and so gave up.

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So we come back to what I said it seems, with company that says they can but us not being certain after. I'd always have that seed of doubt and with that, this re-heat treated rifle would remain as new. Unfired for all time. No one would ever know.

Guess we'll see if it sells, not quite two days left.

Did you see all of the other rifles that were for sale from that fire? Springfield Armory M1A, Russian Tokorev, etc.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

with company that says they can but us not being certain after.

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To be completely fair, I did not see the company I posted advertise any restoration heat-treating services on their website. I was of the naive opinion, pre-Hatcher, that metal is metal heat and cool slow to soften, reheat and quench to harden. I AM ENLIGHTENED THAT THIS IS INDEED NOT THE CASE! with such tight tolerances in process, composition, and end product specifications as in these receivers.
I think they specialize in heat treating for new things - like mill your own receiver from soft steel and send it to them for finishing. I would think that they could very well duplicate the original heat treat process if you decided to mill your own receiver from scratch - as we all know there is a substantial custom-action market that they likely serve.
If it were tried, the only way you would know if was successful would be a destructive test - which showed non-uniformity of results in Hatcher.
I'm very satisfied with the knowledge I gained in this conversation. Hopefully we have added some clarity to the issue. The other forums quickly digress into religious, uninformed debate on either side whenever the question is asked, making the answer not as all as clear as you all have done here. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by ssgross

I think they specialize in heat treating for new things - like mill your own receiver from soft steel and send it to them for finishing.

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That I would completely believe. New could be done I should think. I imagine they need to know exactly what the steel is too.