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I don't remember when I came across this Front Sight it wasn't until I cleaned it long after I had gotten it. It's marked NI between the Blade and Ear. I have never seen one but did find a small article about it in the CCNL's. I don't know who manufactured it and why the marking was placed there.
Frank, Is there a number on the left side??
No, No number at all...Does the N look more like a Z to you or is it a N ?Quote:
Originally Posted by W5USMC
Gotta Be Rare,
Even George doesn't have them !
I've heard/read about some reported marked N.I.
But don't know if these were legit sightings.
Even being NI I have never seen one.
Great Score !
Frank, can you post a good picture of the left side? Just want to see for myself. - Bob
GI Bob,
Don't be calling my man Frank a liar !! :bash:
Or you questioning his eye sight....... Funny coming from you ..... :rofl:
Taking care of my Truck ?
I'll be after that in the spring !
Ch-P777
If it is an IP, it doesn't look like they had to grind off much (if any) of the post - so would there even be a stamped number? I've heard conflicting information on what the range of numbers were: 0-8, 2-7? Can't remember much about them right now, but the one on my S'G' is a big 7, and the post is about 1/2 gone! Thought if they did stamp any with a 1, the smaller version might be easy to miss.
If you mean the '52, I had it out for awhile today, trying to remember how to "double-clutch." Just now going to look for that other stock to see if it has a number near the recoil plate. I might get another picture of that "30 or 50" that's upside down, too. - Bob
No Problem Bob, You know me I never keep anything up my Sleeves. Here's a Regular one then one Highly Magnified and a couple to see the top and the Height of the Blade.https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...a2786e7e-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...6c8101d4-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...dcd1d944-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...c7991c8c-1.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by USGI
I have the same front sight on a 2918xx Inland with undated barrel I purchased directly from the Veterans family. It looks to have the same off center circular staking as the OP's.
I wonder if the markings could be early ones for Niedner Inland (NI) front sights? Later Niedner dropped the I and just used the N for all their front sights.
Maybe So, but check a few or all the Early Inland data charts and you won't see any with a NI Marked Front Sight. I didn't find one but I could of missed one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce McAskill
I think that's it. See CCNL 346-14, which talks about the NI front sight also refers to CCNL 343-2 which has pictures of the NI sight just like Franks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce McAskill
I'm glad I finally seen another one and on a Carbine at that. I been searching for one when I came across this one and couldn't even find one pictured on the internet, but I'm not saying that there isn't one I just never came across one. I don't even know how to list it and what to say other than it's marked NI between the Blade and Ear. I know a couple of collectors that i've had or found parts for and they look through ebay also, but almost never buy anything on it. If I do end up listing it I know it would probably end up with someone who does know about it and maybe it will go to use where it should be. I also think that I shouldn't because later on we will start seeing this marked FS a lot more from some person who sells fake Carbine parts.
I believe this is the best answer, makes the best sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce McAskill
You do very well when not on the Vodka Bruceski :thup:
Charlie, You just wish you could be nice and warm in the sub artic of Michigan. Good Vodka from Mother Russia will take care of that Da !!!!
Okay you two let's throttle back a little...Now Shake Hands and Let's move Forward. Just Kidding. Older Guys are Funny...lol.
Hey Frank, Do you remember where you got the article you showed us in Post #1 of this thread? I have that same information that I "snipped" somewhere 3 or 4 years ago. It sounds a bit like Bill Ricca, but also wonder if it could be from Harrison's book? He states that he found (4) NI front sights with numbers on the left side. That's why I was asking for the pics. Larson's book (I know!) shows NI sights used on Inlands from the mid 6 digit range on up into the 3M's. :dunno: - Bob
Attachment 112878
Answer is in Waynes post above, reply 12.Quote:
Originally Posted by USGI
I'll look Tuesday to see who was digging thru the bushel and wrote it.
Yep, have been reading them all. Just been curious about the origin of that article ever since the thread started. - Bob
Somewhere here there's an original type Carbine with one of those sights on it, but not sure who the maker is. Maybe one day I'll encounter it again.
Thx Jangle,Quote:
Originally Posted by jangle
As Wayne mentioned, Inlands first serial number block is covered in CCNL 346. Looking at page 14 there is mention of Niedner Rifle Corporation having produced the N and NI marked Front sights. 2 Inland carbines having NI front sights were reported in CCNL 346, Serial #'s 327,7xx and 607,763. Now we can add Jangle's 291,8xx. CCNL 343-2 has a picture of a NI front sight.
Also some SI marked front sights made by R.F. Sedgley Inc were found in the 1st block between 34,512 and 564,718. Some SI front sights were also reported in the Sub Contract Supplied S.G. receivers to Inland in the 704,585 to 887,6xx range.
The snip it below dates back to when USGIBOB and Bruce still had hair, wearing Bell bottom pants, platform shoes and listening to the Bee Gees while dancing to Saturday Night Fever :dancingbanana:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stripall-1.jpg
From CCNL 32 from June 1979, reported by J.B. Powers.
https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....4&d=1606607680
:lol:
Thank You Charlie and BoB and EVERYONE who invested a lot of time on this Front Sight I Posted...My Newsletters are not Organized or Binded yet. When I bought them awhile back I didn't have clue there were be 4k of pages or there were 2k of pages that had information on the front and back, but when I purchased my set a good while back they were copied with info on one side only. I been looking for it when I got the clipping. I had help from a Ret. USMC LtCol. who has been a collector for many years and is a member here and a really good friend who we have swap parts for and he has helped me to identify parts that I have gotten and couldn't find anything about them. I been looking for it since BoB asked me and I was still looking for it and had forgotten where I was told I could find it but still had not come across it when he told me where it was. I don't Name Drop that is how I was raised even if under conviction unless I had approval, so I reached out to him earlier if I could but I have not gotten a reply back. Great Job though because I did not want anyone to think that this was a bogus clip. Thank You and EVERYONE Again.Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777
I think I'm finally getting the picture on this! I was confused at first, but now see that some NI's actually did go to Grand Rapids and receive #'s for targeting purposes. I'm curious if J.B.'s "data chart" from that CCNL tells what those numbers were, and the size of them? I have a GR carbine with an "N" (7) and also an Inland from the 700K range with the SG stamped receiver and an "SI" marked front sight. The barrel dates on those (2) are just one month apart. Charlie and Frank: Thanks for helping with this, and Frank, if I owe you a reply to a PM, please let me know. If I missed responding to one - it wasn't intentional.
It might be good if MI would receive more snow! Might help Charlie keep a bit more occupied. :slap: - Bob
Quote:
Originally Posted by USGI
No BoB not at all, I was never offended or upset nor did I question the validity of comments from anyone. I actually got a reply where to find the information that I had forgotten earlier. It was where Charlie said it was. My friend said it's on CCNL 32-5.Quote:
Originally Posted by USGI
That SI marked Front Sight is Pretty Rare and one was Auction off at RIA Auction House and fetch quite a bit. I know you know this but you have a few Stars in your Collection. Thank You BoB for All your Help.
Bob's seeing Stars *************** :dancingbanana:
Has been for years !
:D
I did receive emails from a couple of really good guys who just like Jim C. and Jim F. (RIP) took me under there Wing a little and helped me a lot and told me to buy all these books first and read them when I decided to take this collecting very serious when I decided to invest LOTS of money into it. I just wanted to see if anyone agrees with the Value one has placed on it.
Frank, CCNL 32-5 (dtd June 1979) may imply that the NI marking was for IP of S'G' but CCNL 346 (dtd Mar 2008) says the marking is for Inland, and actually lists two Inland serial #'s that the NI has been observed on (3277xx and 607763). CCNL 206 (dtd Dec 93) has a list copied from the National Archives with Inland Sub-Contractor parts code markings which says NI was a Niedner sight made for Inland. Not saying that there was never a IP of S'G' that may have ended up with an NI sight on it but I would expect to see a number on the left side if that were the case. There is 29 years of research between CCNL 32 and CCNL 346.
Thank You Bro for adding those extra NL's. I have to find them since mine are not Binded or Organized like they should be and I should have done that already, but what I been through these past few years has been Heartbreaking and I'm still going through it. I appreciate your input and All your Help Brother and I Really appreciate it. I wanted to know if the value mentioned was correct or what I Really want to do is Donate it to someone that this is the last piece they need to complete there Carbine to give it a Home where it should belong...Thank You AgainQuote:
Originally Posted by W5USMC
And in CCNL 32 it was stated oddly enough No S'G' had been reported with a NI , T S'G' or N-S'G' front sight. But much smaller pool back then, compared to todays reported carbines.Quote:
Originally Posted by W5USMC
Value ? I'd read about them but never seen before.
If mine, I'd sit on it and save it to see if more info comes up. But that's just me.
When looking at the Front Sight Data Chart in CCNL 32-6 (page 6) J.B. Powers had reported that from the Bushel were the following Sights with numbers stamped on the left:Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777
"Total Of" 3 Sights with N-S'G' stamped on top beside the sight blade with the numbers 2 or 3 on the outer left side.
"Total Of" 4 Sights with T'S'G' stamped on the Front with the numbers not noted, but located on the outer left side.
"Total Of" 12 Sights with IPN stamped on the Top with the numbers 2, 4, 5, 7 located on the outer left side.
"Total Of" 4 Sights with NI stamped on top beside the sight blade with the numbers 5 and 6 on the outer left side.
Total Not Noted- N stamped on top with variations in rotation, with numbers 0, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7 on the outer left side.
Unmarked- Reported with numbers 00, 2, 4 on the outer left side.
One- RP stamped on the front with the number 4 on the outer left side.
Note: There are 2 sizes of the numbers mentioned- Small and Large. Used on IPN and the N marked sights. Not clear which size numbers were found on the NI, RP and Unmarked sights.
Also know that not all were always number stamped.
And as mentioned earlier in this thread this comes from a report from June 1979.
The CCC has a larger Data base now. Look closely as some stampings are very light.
Report any sightings and include barrel date and makers serial number.
Fellow Member BobG just reported having a N-S'G' with a number 4 on the left side. On a original S'G' with Ser# is 3599xxx.
Thx Bob, :thup:
Several years ago, BQ posted here that the numbers ranged from 0-8. That left me wondering a bit, since I had never seen evidence of those extremes before. I see that CCNL 32-6 shows an 8, but also a 00? The number on mine is the larger size, but I've seen a few sights with small ones, too.
editing here for a mistake I made in reading Charlie's post regarding CCNL 32-6 "data chart." I thought he had listed a sight stamped with an 8, but he did not.
A question for you Charlie, since I've heard a couple different versions of how Carbines were targeted at GR, were the sights ground to size and numbered (made ready to install when needed)? If so, then it makes sense you might find them as "take-offs," or as "new" and never installed. The reason I ask is, because when I see a numbered sight listed "For Sale" with a blade that hasn't been ground down enough, I've been calling it a FAKE. The sight below for example - I believe the blade on a 7 should be much shorter. The appearance of the IPN on this one is also suspect. Thanks! - Bob
Attachment 112962Attachment 112961
Bob,Quote:
Originally Posted by USGI
I put that CCNL away today, will dig it back out tomorrow. But IIRC I didn't see a 8 listed in there. Though I know the numbers in it just represent the numbers from the sights pulled from that bushel. If BQ said there was a 8, I sure wouldn't disagree.
Looking at your picture I see NO type of staking. But do see the rear has the 'Inside' bevel, which I believe CCNL 32 said was correct for IPN sights. Also looking at your pictures I see no scars on the frt or back or the inside that would lead me to believe it was ever installed. Is it me or do the letters look a little shaky to you also ?
I'll try to compare some pictures for letters / numbers and look closer at the profile of the outer ears tomorrow also.
Seems odd...... not a scratch on it.
More tomorrow while she's busy baking cookies at her friends. :- D
I tuned up her snow thrower today, she'll be ready when needed !
Next I have to install a bigger (more circuits) generator transfer switch box.
Later,
Charlie-P777
PS: Bob That IPN sight you have pictured is a Imposter ! Note the short / narrow letters and the narrow rear bevel.
Something to study for Saturday:
http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=38209
Frnt Sight - The Carbine Collector's Club
Frnt sight manufcturer marking - The Carbine Collector's Club
Picture from Mikey, helping us from the grave :bow:
https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....7&d=1291537584
https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....3&d=1291782943
Mikes pics came from this thread that I copied and pasted BQ's explanation about how IP-S'G' used / marked / Sighted in:
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread....ighlight=Irwin
It was Irwin Pedersen not Saginaw Gear that initiated the front sights of varying heights. IP precut front sights down from the standard height to one of seven dimensions and stamped a corresponding number on the left side of the sight. When the carbines were targeted they were done so without a front sight. Instead they used a dummy fixture which gave them the height required for the front sight blade. After targeting the appropriate pre-sized front sight was installed. The IP pre-sized front sights ranged in size from 0 - 8, with 0 being the tallest and 8 being the shortest. The #1 sights were the standard height of .795" from bore centerline. When Saginaw Gear took over the IP facility they abandoned the practice in favor of the standard method of firing the completed carbine, then filing the front sight to the appropriate size. Saginaw Gear did use some of the left over pre-sized front sights but they were targeted in the standard fashion.
There you go Bob,
Want to know what I want for Christmas now ? :D
Ch-P777
Two fonts were used. A large and small. Small being more figured version. I've got an 8 marked sight. Make that two 8s. One appears mismarked. It should be a 2 or 3 I'm betting. That's about the height it's filed to.
Pic 1 L to R is an IPN (w/no number), the mismarked 8 and a 4. Pic is IPN to 8s. Pic 3 is diff font 4s.
Well, I got here late in the day, but have been studying your links. Those are good ones, I remember some of those posts and have several sight pictures saved from those years, including that one of Mikey's.Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777
Do you still have your "Two Front Teeth"? ;) If that's not it, maybe a new snow shovel? :dancingbanana:Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777
Here's another IPN sight from an eBay auction in 2012. The IPN is closer to the blade. That one sold for $95. - Bob
Attachment 112971Attachment 112970Attachment 112969
I NEED that B-S'G' sight pictured up top ?? !!! ?? To replace A Repro one on my 1,823,xxx S'G', the one that they peened the outer dovetail edge over on, after installing it.
Would have to knock the Repro out to the left. And tap a Original on from Left to Right.
Is B-S'G' for sale ?
Took me a while to find it!Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777
T1 rear sight marked B-S'G' . Flip sight leaf is also marked the same.
That post was a long time ago - one of Mikey's buddies, too. :cheers: - Bob
I'm still buying them when they show up.Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777
Hi Ten,Quote:
Originally Posted by tenOC
A Real B-S'G' Flip sight.
I'm really needing one, but will have to probably wait until after Xmas to seek and purchase.
I've had a lot of out going $$ recently with funerals, home generator, tree cutting.. and more to come with Xmas coming along with a couple other things.
Add to that December is when my truck plates get renewed for nearly $225 for the less than 400 miles I put on it this year, rifle club dues...
I admit to spoiling my now 5 year old Grandson. I purchased his 1st gun to start his collection, but I'll hang on to it until he's older. Age 5 was when my Father did the same for my brother and I and every Xmas after.
I've got quite a bit of extra milsurp items I could sell off, but I rarely sell anything.
I have a Rock Ola flip with a frosted leaf and would like to change it. RCS posted a couple in another post, but I didn't want to spend the extra right now.
Always expensive in Dec round here.
Thought I'd add this QHMC Type I front sight picture I seen today on a ended auction. I've never seen one of these in person.
Was attached to a 11-42 Rock-Ola barrel complete with Type I blued band and QU Parked swivel. Ran over $800.
Wanted to add picture of Blued band with parked swivel so all know they did come this way.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2/sl1600-3.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2/sl1600-4.jpg
The first Q-J front sight I found has the ears trimmed off. It's on an original. Seems I found another that might be on a rebuilt Carbine.
We used to have a WWII and Korea Vet that always set up in the middle of the back wall at our fair grounds gun show. Anyone here that ever went to the Gun and Knife Shows at the Ingham County Fair Grounds in Mason, Mi would probably remember him. He always had his 1911 holstered and about a dozen carbines in a stand up rack for sale. He couldn't hear very well and the noise in there didn't help. You'd have to nearly yell at him to talk. Sometimes he'd have me watch his table while he went out for a smoke. His carbines were honest and coming out of Hawaii, I don't know more than that. His prices were high, he said in part because of the middle men he dealt with. But usually 75% of them would have the front sight side ears cut off and sometimes the Flips would be V cut. He had records of where many of his carbines had come from out of the PTO. Sometimes his records showed GI ID's, Units and Company. He wouldn't budge on a price, if offered less than the asking.. he'd raise the asking. He didn't want to really sell, He was there to 'Show'. His tables were always well organized with few smalls for sale. I did manage to buy a S&W .38Spl Victory Revolver, Engineers compass and a Navy stamped 44 Machete and Sheath.Quote:
Originally Posted by tenOC
I do believe I seen a QJ frt sight there with the ears cut away but can't be sure. I didn't see him at the 2017 - 2019 shows. I fear he may be gone now. Our other just Carbine guy (West wall) got caught up with a M2 receiver and went to prison 7-8 years ago. His nephew took over, but he's an A$$. We've had no shows anywhere this year in state, except a couple un-announced swap meets at our rifle club. Of course we'd have our Militia types roaming about and the plainclothes ABC types looking for them, like hide and seek. Entertainment at it's best ! More fun that the biker swap meets in Detroit in the 70's.
I'm so Jonesing for a gun show I can't take it. I've mapped out a route for enough Pawn shops that I could tour in a 1 day outing If I hustle. I've gotta do something before we're pad locked in to our own homes here.
Sorry so long..
:banghead: