Noob with a Lee Enfield- Help!

Good afternoon all. Just received a L/E. I’ve been pouring through this site looking for help identifying the marks. I attached several pictures to help. It appears that it it a Savage, but the L A on the receiver has me stumped. As well as the other marks.

Also, to what extent should I go to clean this? Obviously I’m not going to do anything abrasive, but should I disassemble and thoroughly clean to minimize corrosion? I hear there should be marks under the barrel, but I’m a bit nervous about marring it during disassembly.

I did read the cleaning section and Murphys Oil Soap was my first instinct.

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Find correct size screw drivers for the screws and some penetration oil,good to go
It appears that this savage rifle has some long branch parts in it along with proper savage
LA plus the number, could be a rack number. The wrist has the rifle serial number.
The bolt number and barrel number should match it, in a perfect world
50/50 ammonia and hot water in a spray bottle will lift the oil out of the wood. 100% ammonia will do it quicker. But it will affect the bluing. Dry the gun add oil where bluing and wood meet
Take you time, fine steel wool /WD40 will clean metal
Then you will have a better idea of the rifle condition

Thanks for the help. Guess I’ll go for it.

Any idea what the numbers on the bolt side & head mean? The “5” on the upper band?

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Originally Posted by LuvNH

Thanks for the help. Guess I’ll go for it.

Any idea what the numbers on the bolt side & head mean? The “5” on the upper band?

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The 5 is a square S (S for Savage), all of the manufactured parts should have had it originally, but during its life many parts can be replaced and the armourers aere not overconcerned about collectos 80 years later wanting 'all matching parts'. The deciding factor was "will this part get it back out into srvice" It didn't matter is it was a UK produced part, a Canadian part or a UK part/ If it fitted it was installed.

For some reason the original Serial number has been ground off (you can see the grinder marks on the LH side of the butt-socket) and some other number stamped into it.
Is there a cross bolt thru the forend an inch / inch & half in front of the magazine ?

No bolt. I did notice the side was ground off. I didn’t think I would get a pristine piece. I don’t mind at all what I have. Finding out what pieces are here is interesting, like mapping out where it has been.

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Originally Posted by LuvNH

No bolt. I did notice the side was ground off. I didn’t think I would get a pristine piece. I don’t mind at all what I have. Finding out what pieces are here is interesting, like mapping out where it has been.

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The SM on the rear sight is 'Singer manufacturing' (of Singer sewing machine fame) a UK manufacturer of parts for the No4

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

The SM on the rear sight is 'Singer manufacturing' (of Singer sewing machine fame) a UK manufacturer of parts for the No4

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Oh that’s very cool. Thanks for that. The “P” and the “X” on the bolt head? I read somewhere on this site the arrow was an acceptance stamp. By whom I do not remember.

Being a MkI rather than a MkI* as with early production Long Branches,makes it a more interesting piece to many people. Great pity the original serial number was ground off. I don't know off hand what serial number block Savage was on when they changed to the MkI*, but someone here probably does.

No chance of finding the bolt?

The massive removal of wood on the handguard compared to where the line indicates it roughly would have been originally is rather striking!

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

Being a MkI rather than a MkI* as with early production Long Branches,makes it a more interesting piece to many people. Great pity the original serial number was ground off. I don't know off hand what serial number block Savage was on when they changed to the MkI*, but someone here probably does.

No chance of finding the bolt?

The massive removal of wood on the handguard compared to where the line indicates it roughly would have been originally is rather striking!

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Finding the original bolt?

I don’t see the removal of wood you are talking about. Noob, sorry.

So if i understand correctly, the Mk* production line was a changeover from the Mk1? I didn’t understand that completely. Also, is it strange that there are no markings whatsoever on the wood? After I clean it I may find some, but nothing yet.

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Originally Posted by LuvNH

Finding the original bolt? Yes

I don’t see the removal of wood you are talking about. Noob, sorry. The original profile would have been about where the line in the photo is.

So if i understand correctly, the Mk* production line was a changeover from the Mk1? I didn’t understand that completely. Also, is it strange that there are no markings whatsoever on the wood? After I clean it I may find some, but nothing yet.

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MkI is like your rifle: bolt head release via the catch and slot behind the charger bridge. MkI* which Savage and Long Branch introduced later, eliminated catch and just had a slot in rib that the bolt head runs in close to the closed position of the bolt; it was NOT a good idea.

Oh I see what you are talking about now. I missed the line in your picture. I looked several other images from others and yes there is some material missing. It’s nicely rounded and smooth, so it appears intentional. What are the chances it was just a “B” grade hand guard? Short supply perhaps?

As far as the bolt goes, this one came out of Ethiopia. It wasn’t a close personal sale. Do people have any similar success? Seems like a huge stretch this many years later. I’m not even sure what number to match it to. When I get it disassembled we’ll see if the barrel can shed any light.

Many thanks!

the * on top of the receiver indicates rusting in the bore

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

I don't know off hand what serial number block Savage was on when they changed to the MkI*

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Change over from Mk1 to Mk1* was 'around' the 12C to 15C prefix numbers. 120,000th to 150,000th rifle between those numbers examples of both have been found, and even a very very few occasional Mk1's after 15C. One can only speculate that they were 'lost' at the bottom of the stillage and were eventually picked up and used.


I asked about the cross-bolt thinking it may have been scrubbed in India, the OP answers there isn't one, but I think you may be thinking of THE 'bolt' of which there are pictures

I would imagine that there were several production lines running at the same time, consequently there is a slightly 'blurred' range over which the transition from Mk1 to Mk1* rifles occurred. It was also a few of these early (approx 12 to 15C) Mk1* rifles that were selected for conversion to No4 sniper's rifles following their arrival in the UK.

So I got around to cleaning with some Murphy’s and scrubbing with rag. Making a difference. Still a lot of dirt and junk in the wood. I was hesitant to to start really taking it apart, but finally realized it couldn’t be avoided.

I put a few drops of oil on all screws and let it sit for a while. That worked, or it wasn’t even necessary, as all came out surprisingly easily. I have removed the upper and lower bands, front and rear hand guards, the trigger and guard, butt plate on the stock. I was going to take the stock off, but there was something plugging the hole. Took a picture and it looks like a rag. Haven’t done anything more yet, bc I am also stuck on removing the barrel from the lower fore end stock. I did some looking around and apparently that is a rivet holding the rear end to the receiver? Tie plate and rivet. What do I do here?

Any help on the stamps would be wonderful.

Attached some pics for reference.

Thanks!!

If you have all the bands off(2) then the lower wood should come off with some gentle persuasion. Lay it on a table sights down and work both ends of the wood until it lets go. The rag in the butt isn't supposed to be there so pull it out and there's a BFS inside that needs a flat blade to unscrew. Then the butt will come off. The rear tie plate stays put.

No need to mess with that tie plate? I saw some other versions that had a screw. I’ll try it, but worried about cracking the wood.

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Originally Posted by LuvNH

I saw some other versions that had a screw.

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Yes they do, don't worry about that. Sights down and a bit of tapping at the ends and rocking it back and forth. It SHOULD come free.

Will do. Glad I don’t have to mess with the rivet. Here goes.

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Originally Posted by LuvNH

Here goes.

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K, let us know...pics after.

Stock is off. Bolt was easy to get out and is in great shape! Looks like the wad was the heel of someone’s sock!

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Originally Posted by LuvNH

Looks like the wad was the heel of someone’s sock

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You could wash it and use it as a covid mask...

Than you Jim!! Good advice. Just as you said. A bit of cleaning to do...

Both wood and barrel seem to be in good shape too! I thought there was a lot of rust, but a quick wipe reveals much of it is/was brown dirt, oil and who knows what else.

Thanks again!!

You seen anything like this? Insulation? Filler? Only on one side.

Don't know what that fibrous crap is from here but the rest is grease. According to our Peter Laidler and several of the other old hands here the grease is to be slathered on under the wood for waterproofing. Guess that would be your call. Definitely a bath in volatile mineral spirits first though. The wood will need some care and there's entire threads here dedicated to care of #4 lee Enfield wood...after bath care... Work slowly and do some reading here...

I have and will do more. Treading lightly. Thanks again.

What ever you do not I repeat do not use ordinary steel wool on the bluing it will remove it quicker than your money at a bar, the secret is STAINLESS steel wool and WD40 or RP7 not the soap ones either try it on a small out of the way section that has rust or crud it works well. This I have used on my 303's and was told to me by a WWII trained armourer who set up the 6" coastal defence guns on Rottnest Island.

Looks like a standard Lee Enfield that no one has taken care of for many many years. With a lot of care and effort, you will have a very nice piece of history. Just remember to use raw linseed oil when refinishing the stock. Enjoy the project!

So here are the pics after cleaning with a Murphy’s, some hot water (not a bath), a toothbrush, rags, and a small scraper.

I do not want to do the boiling route. I want much of the color it has and am surprised that some spots came out much lighter than others.

Questions for the experts -

What is the best way to clean the green oxidation from the end of the buttstock?
Should I bother cleaning the light spotty rust near the end of the barrel clamp (on either side of the bluing)? I did see Cinder’s comment about the stainless wool. Thanks BTW.

So far I have found two markings, on the inside of the main stock it says 12-23. The bottom of the buttstock has a Z on it in the recess for the rear sling. The upper guards have marks that are less discernible. The rear upper guard has a large squarish O towards the front and a B/72 towards the middle rear. It could be an 8 over a 12. Can’t tell the B or an 8, nor the first digit in the denominator. The second character is a 2.

Honestly, unless you guys steer me differently, I might not go much further with the wood. Hope everything fits snugly when I put it back together. Think the dirt and grease made a custom gasket so to speak.

Looks pretty good now. It'll be a bit easier to assemble without the crud fitting... I wouldn't worry about the verdigris on the butt, doesn't the butt plate cover it? BLO and go...that will also free more crud from the wood.

You can use Hoppes gun cleaning solvent to remove any grease and grime from the wood. Once that is done, start applying light coats of raw linseed oil, letting each coat soak in and rehydrate the wood. It should be good to go after 7 or 8 hand-rubbed coats. Please remember that once the wood is rehydrated, it will fit differently when you reinstall the barrel and receiver since the wood will expand slightly. Raw linseed oil is what was used on your rifle at the factory when it was first built. Hope that helps!

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Looks pretty good now. It'll be a bit easier to assemble without the crud fitting... I wouldn't worry about the verdigris on the butt, doesn't the butt plate cover it? BLO and go...that will also free more crud from the wood.

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Had to go do snow clean up. On my way to get the BLO now. With Regards to metal- thus far I am again doing just toothbrush, small scraper, and oil. I have some people go crazy with barrel cleaning. I plan to just use a rod with oily cloth rag and run it through many times. Some people say to avoid copper or brass brushes. I don’t have one that fits anyway. I have one to fit my .556, but the .308 one fits initially, but has a wider portion that won’t. To clean the barrel entry I assume. Scotch brite perhaps?

Please heed the advice not to use "BLO" ("Boiled" Linseed Oil). The product needed is RAW linseed oil (RLO) which, unlike BLO, will not readily dry on the surface and leave a shiny, sticky film that's absolutely not what is called for on a military arm.

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Originally Posted by Parashooter

Please heed the advice not to use "BLO" ("Boiled" Linseed Oil).

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Pardon me, I mis-spoke... Yes, RLO. Personally I use Danish oil but do more US military and civilian stocks now.

Mind you it's almost an even score of 33.333 % each when it comes to BLO, RLO and other oils on wood. We've all seen the lengthy threads about wood finishes.

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Originally Posted by LuvNH

I have one to fit my .556, but the .308 one fits initially, but has a wider portion that won’t. To clean the barrel entry I assume.

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Are you speaking of the chamber brush for the AR family?

The BLO will have to wait. Two stores nearby, one closed and out at the other. Just seeing posts about not using boiled. Ok, that’s on hold for now. Thanks much all!

Cinders - didn’t have any stainless wool, but found another wonderful tool! Qtips work great. I also had a small brass brush that I used on the but plate. That was gross. Measurable amount of junk on that. More toothbrushing and rags worked. Pics below.

The receiver came out well. The qtips are great for the screw and pin holes. When the cotton is done, I’ll pull that off and use the flat end as a scraper. Worked well. The sides are just abrasive enough, but gentle so as not to harm any metal.

Did not do barrel yet completely yet. That will have to wait. Ran some oil through to keep it wet.

Question- Should I take the front sight band block off? I have the bracket off, but not sure I want to go any further. It doesn’t appear to need it, but wonder the chances of rust underneath. And the rear hand guard retaining ring has spotty rust on it. Removing the front sight would allow me to get the ring off. Again, worth it?

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Are you speaking of the chamber brush for the AR family?[/QUOTE]

Yes, my vocabulary failed me. Apologies.

Don't fool with the sights get as much done as you can and leave it, your only interest is to get the grunge off it and replenish the stock start trying to drift things out who knows what malady's may befall you.
It is a battle rifle and not a parade rifle give it care yep that's what your doing but to go down the tunnel of pulling a serviceable item off just to make it look pretty is not the way to go.

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Originally Posted by LuvNH

the chamber brush for the AR family

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That shouldn't go further than the barrel extension/chamber of the AR. You can find lots of brushes for .303/.308 that will do nicely. They wear out too so replace them regularly.

RLO is available online. Example at Amazon - Amazon.com: LinSheen Raw Linseed Oil – Food-Grade Wood Treatment Conditioner to Rejuvenate, Restore and Protect Wood Patio Furniture, Decks to Kitchen Cutting Boards, 8 oz Bottle: Health Personal Care

The link above may solve the problem for you, but if you want to source your RLO locally, make sure you also ask for flax seed oil, (ensuring it is unboiled). Linseed oil & flax seed oil are one & the same. Your local store might have it under the different name...... I bought my RLO as human consumption grade flax seed oil off 'that internet auction site'. It gives so much better results than BLO.

Apparently in the US Linseed Oil is full of 'nasties' and is defined as carcinogenic - I remember Ed Horton posting the Health & Safety data sheets.

He suggested that the only place in the US to get 'safe' RLO / BLO was in artist supply stores - a small bottle will last for years.

One other thng to be aware of is that linseed oil soaked cloths can self combust, so leave them outside, don't thro then in the garbage.

Spontaneous combustion of drying oils

** Spontaneous combustion is real! Our house burned down on Labor Day, 2009 due to spontaneous combustion from an old bath towel with wood stain on it. It was not a pile of rags. My husband had used it as a drop cloth while pouring wood stain into his sprayer. In the middle of the night it ignited in our garage. By the time we woke up, the garage was fully engulfed in flames and our house, with a wood shake roof, went up soon after. Thankfully everyone got out fine and our pets were all rescued by the firefighters. We were surprised to hear how common spontaneous combustion is from wood stain and how the general public has no idea of the dangers.

**I was just reading up on linseed oil and spontaneous combustion and just wanted to confirm that it can in fact happen. While using a linseed oil based decking stain I tossed the soaked rags into a bucket along with other trash (paper towels, a rag previously soaked in mineral spirits, etc.) The bucket caught fire after I left the job site. Fortunately the bucket was in the driveway and away from the house - a good precaution! So albeit a seemingly unlikely scenario, it was a scary lesson in chemistry."

**Last night we left a rag we had used to linseed oil some furniture on top of some newspaper on top of the kitchen table. At one o'clock smoke came in to the bedroom and alarmed us. The rag was eventually found to be smoking, extremely hot but just short of actual flames. It had begun to oxidize the table underneath. The smoke had spread throughout he house. The linseed oil container was right beside the rag. We were not aware of this extremely dangerous aspect of linseed oil. I am sure that the can had proper warning unfortunately it more than ten years old and could not be read. I was curious whether the aging of the oil could have an effect but found no evidence to support that hypothesis. I hope my reporting of my experience has been helpful."

**The combustibility of linseed oil is very real and serious. A few days ago, old cotton sweatpants used as rags to apply linseed oil to an old table self-combusted. I finished applying the linseed oil and left the rag on top of a plastic container in a shed. At some point over the next few days.... the top of the container had melted and the sweatpants rag was charred black with a central brown ring. I think that there was not enough air to permit the whole rag to burn, as it extinguished itself. Always being so careful with solvents and paints, I almost filled my pants when I came upon this as I never knew that this could happen with linseed oil. The combustive nature of linseed oil rags may not happen outside in the middle of winter, but on a warm sunny summer day watch out! Later after talking to others, certain cloth material that has smaller fibers such as cotton actually promotes combustion due to the small fluffy fibers. Anyone, I repeat ANYONE, using LINSEED OIL Soaked Rags should either burn rags immediately following use or store in a metal container with a lid soaking in water!

**You may not have had an incident but many others have - even losing their homes if not their lives. Jack London whom I used to read as a child (all those wolf books) apparently lost his almost completed "Wolf House" to a hot August night and a careless craftsman who left a pile of linseed oil soaked rags in the house. Linseed oil-soaked combustibles need to be treated with a great deal of respect. When the manufacturers tell customers to store the residues according to their instructions they really, really mean it. Back when I was a teenager I used to polish my .22 rifle stock with linseed oil but there was no warning back then about the potential problem as there is now. I was lucky. As an aside, I have just recently demolished a cottage in which the interior pine planks had been treated with what must have been unboiled linseed oil back in the 1930s. The stuff was still not cured in places in the 1990s. Thank God for modern chemistry!

**Spontaneous combustion of linseed soaked rags happened to me once as a teen with first use of boiled linseed. I placed oil-soaked rags in a paper bag to throw out later and went to lunch. About an hour and a half later when I returned to check the finish, I noticed a very strong smell and found was the bag with a dark brown discoloration. As I picked up the bag it burst into flames. I was lucky I returned when I did or the workshop may have had serious damage. I threw the bag out the door on ground and watched it burn quite fiercely with heavy black smoke ( from oil I surmise)."

**Just a word about the combustibility of linseed oil. We used boiled linseed oil on our woodwork and forgot the rags on our kitchen countertop and left for a hockey game. When we got home, we smelled and saw smoke....bad enough that we were panicking and running around the house trying to find where it was coming from. Minutes later, we found the smoldered pile of linseed oil rags on our kitchen counter. It had burned a hole about 9" in diameter into our Formica countertop, inches from a pile of newspaper. We were very lucky our house didn't burn down. Scary!"

**Just had a comment concerning the tendency of linseed oil-soaked rags to spontaneously combust. I was returning to Denver from Salida, CO. were I had just built a deck and treated it with boiled linseed oil. When I finished wiping the deck of excess linseed oil, I chucked the three towels in the back of my pickup and headed for Denver. (Note that two of the towels were from two weeks prior wipings of excess linseed oil and one from that day's final treatment). While driving down the highway I noticed smoke coming from the back of the truck. I quickly pulled over to see that the rags had ignited themselves. Voila! Spontaneous combustion of linseed oil rags just like the warning label said might happen. I was both shocked and amazed. And really glad nothing else in my truck burned including me and my family. Just thought you would be interested in my story since your article states you have not seen this happen.

**I also had the rag catch fire...after laying it now in my garage and leaving for work....so my experience with boiled linseed oil has been a nightmare. It is a miracle my house didn't burn down!"

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

Don't fool with the sights get as much done as you can and leave it, your only interest is to get the grunge off it and replenish the stock start trying to drift things out who knows what malady's may befall you.
It is a battle rifle and not a parade rifle give it care yep that's what your doing but to go down the tunnel of pulling a serviceable item off just to make it look pretty is not the way to go.

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Just what I wanted to hear. Many thanks!!

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Good info on the linseed oil saga. It is amazing the amount of info out there. You are all very helpful and incredibly knowledgeable. Many many thanks to you all!!

Another good source of RLO or flax oil, is your local health food store. A small bottle goes a long way. Apply once a day for a week then once a week then once a month. Make sure you soak the insides of the stock parts as well e.g. the barrel channel in the forestock and hand guards. Looks like you're on your way to a nice keeper No4 Mk1.

Apply once year for ever.

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Originally Posted by Daan Kemp

Apply once year for ever.

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And most rifles are a few generations short.