Noticed a Z series 03A4 on Gunbroker for sale. Never saw one before.
Can some one please educate me on what they are?
At $7700 they must be something special!
Thanks
Ed
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Noticed a Z series 03A4 on Gunbroker for sale. Never saw one before.
Can some one please educate me on what they are?
At $7700 they must be something special!
Thanks
Ed
1903A4 specific serial number block
Duplicate serial numbers at Remington with A3 and A4 production - a 'Z' was added to the A4 duplicate numbers to differentiate with the A3 rifles allocated the same number
Thank You!
I think the Z prefix was added to both, at least I think I remember a board member here once posted a 03A3 from the "double block" with the Z prefix. Brophy even pictures rifle serial Z 4.000.000 which was presented to Col. Frank J. Atwood on 4th January 1944 with a plate inside the stock (SA Acc No 6312)Quote:
Originally Posted by waco16
Remington used a "Z" and Smith Corona used a "C". It was not only the A4's but the A3's as well. I have 2 Remington A3's with a Z prefix.
Thanks for confirming what I had remembered! Would you be able to post a picture of a service 03A3 rifle with the Z prefix?Quote:
Originally Posted by mark1
These are the two with the Z.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...Xyoa6Kxl-1.jpg
It seems interesting in that the location for the Z stamp is now above the serial instead of being a prefix to the serial. Thank you very much! One of the very few details that aren't covered in the book by Brophy.
Edit: great also to see consecutive serialized rifles! If the Z prefix wasn't enough.... how did you get this lucky to get this pair?
Interesting that the same individual has four currently listed on gunbroker. All of them listed well above any recent sales prices I've seen, but nonetheless, a very nice collection.
Found them, well the asking price is high but who knows.
Remington 008Z I purchased around 1992 from an estate. I just put the rifle in the safe and was happy. Than around 2005 s/n 009Z came up as a receiver only. Cost me $125.00. I had all of the other parts so it was an easy buy. I am still looking for others and maybe one will come along.
Relating to the 'Z' A4's...
These were from the numbers assigned to Block '2' A4 Serials 4,000,000 - 4,015,000 where the crossover occurred.
Although there are different opinions of the actual number of rifles affected - it is around the 3,000 mark from 4,000,000
Mark1--
Interesting that your "Z" prefix A4's have the "Z" stamped over the serial numbers and the "Z" appears to be in a smaller font. Also interesting that Remington records state that the Z prefix sniper rifles started with serial number 4,000,001 and ended with s/n 4,002,980 for a total production run of only 2,980 rifles with the "Z" prefix. Yours are in the 3,000,000 range. Hate to say it but I think that your rifles are fake "Z" prefix A4's, where someone added the "Z" above the serial number to try & make them more valuable. Hope you didn't pay too much for them, as their value just dropped because someone altered them.
I'm attaching a pic of my original 1903A4 for comparison:
Attachment 115375
Just for clarification, (since the topic of this thread 1903a4 sniper rifles), Smith-Corona never made a 1903a4 rifle. The government contract for all 1903a4 sniper rifles went exclusively to Remington.Quote:
Originally Posted by mark1
--728shooter
728shooter,
Please note that the font size on the A4 is smaller than the font on the A3. That is the reason the Z is stamped above on the A3's.........they didn't have as much room on the A3's as they did on the A4's. I don't have either of of the Z marked rifles but I do own a C marked Smith Corona.
Quote:
Originally Posted by m1903rifle
M1903rifle -- Based on your logic that the font was in fact "smaller" on the A4's, wouldn't that mean there should be ample room in "front of" the serial number of ALL true A4's to place the added "Z" prefix instead of on top of it? How does that explain the fact that the A4 rifles pictured by "mark1" have no room for a prefix in front of the serial number, whereas the photo that I posted of my correct Z-prefix A4 has ample room ahead of the serial number? That, plus the fact that the A4's posted by "mark1" are out of the serial number range for Z-prefix A4's as documented by Remington records, there is no doubt that his rifles have been altered by someone to try to pass them off as true "Z" prefix rifles, which they are not.
(Interesting to note that "mark1" says he purchased both rifles at different times, from different sources, one being just a barreled receiver, and yet they both have the same identical fake "Z" stamp on the receiver.....hmmmm)
--728shooter
It took me some research as well to find out on this, but I think I solved the mystery: it seems the rifles of mark1 are both used as well by SC.
Hence Remington might had "double trouble" by serials that were already used by Smith-Corona, as well as then used by themselves for 03A4 sniper rifles. As a result to this all double serials were Z prefixed on Remington made rifles and C prefixed on SC made rifles.
Edit: m1903rifle is correct, the serial font on 03A4 sniper rifles is slightly smaller than on the 03A3 rifles. I guess the reason why the Z was stamped in front on the 03A4 rifles however might also had been because the space above was already covered by the scope base..
728shooter,
Mark1's rifles are M1903-A3 not M1903A4.
That's exactly my point. Regardless of the font sizes, the 1903A4 was a separate and unique rifle, including the way the serial numbers were positioned and sized on the receiver due to provisions for mounting a scope. Have seen numerous A3 "clones" that were changed to A4 sniper configurations and the conversions are obvious. However, the rifles submitted by "mark1" are the first time I've seen a 1903a3 (actually, 2 of them!), being submitted as a "genuine Z prefix A4" with an obvious fake "Z" stamping on the receivers!!! (And what's worse, a previous post by "champ0608" states that this same individual is now trying to sell them on Gunbroker!)Quote:
Originally Posted by m1903rifle
Buyer beware! --728shooter
728shooter,Quote:
Originally Posted by 728shooter
You are missing the fact that Mark1 never called his rifles M1903-A4s. He plainly stated that they were M1903-A3s.
I don't know what you were reading, but mark1 stated that Z prefixes were added to 03A3 rifles as well and that he has two of them. When I asked him for pictures of his 03A3 rifles with Z prefix he posted them in here. Neither he nor anyone else ever said the rifles of mark1 are 03A4 and therefore sniper rifles.Quote:
Originally Posted by 728shooter
Additionally you misunderstood champ0608 - he did not mean that mark1 was selling FOUR 03A4 sniper rifles on gunbroker, but he was referring to the seller of the rifle the original poster was questioning. Re-read it, it will then become clear to you.
[QUOTE=Promo;494075]I don't know what you were reading, but mark1 stated that Z prefixes were added to 03A3 rifles as well and that he has two of them. When I asked him for pictures of his 03A3 rifles with Z prefix he posted them in here. Neither he nor anyone else ever said the rifles of mark1 are 03A4 and therefore sniper rifles.
Its well known by most 1903A3 fans that Remington marked ALL their 1903A3 receivers with the same identification, hence, even designated 1903A4 rifles were stamped "MODEL 1903A3". The only obvious differentiation between the two stampings being that the stamping on the A4 was re-positioned to the sides of the receiver due to mounting of the scope base. That being said, ALL Remington rifles of this design are marked MODEL 1903A3.
The A4's were assigned separate serial number blocks from A3's and when it was discovered that certain numbers were found to have been duplicated on both A3' and A4's , Remington decided to modify the affected s/n's on the A4's buy adding a prefix to the existing serial number. Starting at s/n 4,000,001, and ending with s/n 4,002,980, the A4's in this block (2,980 total) were modified by Remington by adding an upper-case letter "Z" in front of (prefix) the existing serial number, thereby making this batch of A4 rifles rather unique. The "Z" prefix was never added to a standard A3 rifle, only the A4 sniper rifles had them. The confusing part of this, is that ALL 1903 rifles, both A3' & A4's, were stamped MODEL 1903A3!
When someone states that they have a "Z" prefix 1903A3 rifle, in my opinion, they are implying that they have an original 1903A4 rifle, since the A4 was THE ONLY 1903 rifle to have that designation. mark1 never said that the Z was "added" to his rifle; he only said that, "..Remington used a Z prefix.." When mark1 stated that "Remington used a Z" prefix on their rifles, to me, he is saying that the "Z" on his rifle(s) was placed there by Remington, thereby implying that it is an A4 (even though the receiver is stamped "A3"). When he continued talking about the Z prefix, he also erroneously stated, "..it was not only on the A4's but the A3's as well..." He then went on to say that he "has 2 Remington A3's with a Z prefix".
I am seeing a menagerie of errors and/or misinformation here. Having bought both his rifle/receivers about 13 years apart, and then having owned both for over 15 years, I just find it hard to believe that anyone knowledgeable enough about 1903A3 rifles to acquire spare parts for them for re-building future rifles, could be so blatantly naive about their history, identification and differences. Something as simple as accessing the Remington website for serial numbers and historical data on these rifles would have clarified everything, but apparently, that was never done. Don't mean to be critical or demeaning towards anyone, just trying to clarify facts and prevent any misconceptions.
--728shooter
728shooter, repeating makes your mistakes not better. Re-read the thread, read literature, compare rifles and then you might finally end up accepting that there were Remington 03A3 service rifles (NOT 03A4 rifles!) that got Z prefix stamped, because they were duplicate serial numbers. YOUR error is that you assume these were ONLY in the serial range of 4.000.001 to 4.002.980 and that you believe those were only stamped on 03A4 sniper rifles, what is incorrect.
You can find another one in a very close serial range to the rifles of mark1 posted a few years ago by someone else on the CMP forum here: CMP Forums - View Single Post - My Z prefix Remington 1903A3. (follow the link to the pictures for you to see). He bought this rifle from the CMP. Do you think CMP is part of the conspiracy you are making up?
Edit: found another 03A3 rifle with Z prefix in the same block as mark1's rifles posted on this forum a few years ago by someone else, see https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=30600
... and another one here: Remington 03-a3 30-06 Rifle | Baer Auctioneers - Realty, LLC
Promo --
If you will re-read the original post by Ed Skeels, the title says "Z SERIES 03A4". Period. Not clones, not 03a3's, not any other altered prefixed serial number rifles, but specifically the "Z SERIES 03A4" (made by Remington). The OP had a legitimate question, and to deviate from that and start discussing other variants, even other manufacturers (SC), only clouds the issue (and the topic) and does not help to answer the OP's questions. That's what I focused on and I chose to stick with the topic of the original post...
--728shooter
Glad that you finally accepted there are 03A3 rifles out there that have the Z prefix as well, not only 03A4 sniper rifles.
Re the thread, read it from the beginning down. It was mentioned the Z prefix was added to 03A4 sniper rifles that had a serial that was used twice. A few posts later I mentioned this did not only apply to 03A4 sniper rifles, but also to 03A3 service rifles. Then mark1 chimed in and mentioned he has two A3 rifles with a Z prefix, of which I then asked him to show off since most collectors are aware of the Z prefix 03A4, but not of the 03A3. He then posted the pictures per my request.
I think what may clear this up is, Remington overran their serial number range on both the 1903A3's and A4's. Remington placed a "Z" on the Remington A3's and A4's that over ran the s/n base. Smith Corona placed a "C" on their A3's. So a Z marked Remington is not always an A4. You need to know the s/n block for the A4 which is Z4,000,000 to Z4,002,290. Only this block of Z prefix are A4's. All other Z prefix Remington's are A3's.
1. There were actually only two orders of M1903A4 rifles.
2. the first batch of 20,000
3. the second batch about 8,xxx.
4. M1903A3's and M1903A4's were both made in Remington's Ilion Plant but in different parts of the building.
5. When production started on the second batch of A4's production was also going hot and heavy on A3's in a different part of the plant.
6. The people making the A3's inadvertently overran their production into the serial number range assigned to the new order of A4s. :eek:
7. When the error was discovered :yikes::yikes: the plant fell back on their SOP's to deal with the issue. i.e. When a duplicate SN was detected one of the rifles would have its SN altered with a "Z" prefix (at Remington).
This is where the occasional M903A3's with "Z" serials come from.
8. In most instances duplicate serials were occasional, random one-off events. In the case a whole batch of A4 rifles had been produced with serials already used on A3's. A3's which in all likelihood were finished, inspected, packed and out the door. So adding the "Z" to the serial would take care of the first 3,000 rifles in the second order but what about the remaining 5,000 units?
9. For the last 5000~ rifles a new SN block would be created (4992000 to 499859X) to finish out the order:D
Jim
Please go back and read my post.
Both Remington and Smith Corona overran their assigned serial number blocks. So Remington used a Z and Smith Corona used a C. There were also other firearms that were not M1903A3 /A4's with the same s/n so the duplicate s/n's had to be segregated and the letter system was used.
My 2 rifles are M1903A3 not A4's snipers. And yes s/n 009Z came from the CMP. The location of the Z seems logical as the A3 could be stamped with the Z above the s/n. But the A4's need to be stamped to the left of the s/n due to the placement of the scope base.
Not all Z marked Remington M1903A3 are A4's.
Hmm A3 and A4 production - a 'Z' was added to the A4 duplicate numbers to differentiate with the A3 rifles allocated the same..
Lets step back and look at this in a different light.
The US Government contracted to have firearms manufactured from different manufactures. Regardless of the type of firearm each manufacturer was assigned a serial number block for that model. There were several manufactures for Garands, M1903's, M1903A3's, etc. Now in the 1940's things were a little different then now. So the manufactures over ran their assigned lot of s/n. Not a problem. The Government had that manufacture add an alpha character to the serial number so it could be tracked and not confused with anothe4r. M1 Garands used an A I believe. Remington used a Z and Smith Corona used a C. I forget the other alpha characters that were used.
So, the alpha character does not denote the model of the firearm. It simply segregates the serial numbers so they are not confused with another s/n in the system.
Stop over thinking this.
Smith Corona overran their first block (3608000 - 3707999), into Remington's, creating duplicates - the C was added to the SC rifles
Rem A3's overran their production into a block assigned to A4's (4000001-4015000, creating duplicates - the Z was added to the A4's
What are the Z prefix A3's a duplicate of? Another Rem A3?
Vishooter lists a Z prefix A3 as early as Z3875151 and as late as Z3988888, not close to any A4 or SC block.
Mike
Mike, the s/n is a duplication in the Government system, somewhere. The first A3 (Z3899008) I purchased around 1989 from a private party. The second came from the CMP. I do not know which manufacture Remington eithere overran the s/n assignment or if another manufacture overran Remington. Maybe I need to get in touch with JB.
Thank You It 's Really helps.