GCA Article On M1 Clip

Just read the article 'Don"t Blame John Garand' in the latest GCA magazine.

I found it very interesting and I have a few observations of my own.

First, I don't blame John Garand. I praise him for designing a very well thought out magazine design. I prefer it to a detachable magazine.

His design provides one of the quickest reloads among the many military rifle designs.

Garand's clip is light, durable and extremely reusable. I have one clip I use for function testing that has been cycled many times with only finish wear.

I believe the Army made the right choice. They wanted magazine capacity to be no more that 10 rounds. A !0 round detachable magazine weighs a lot more than one 8 round clip.

Apparently, the military was not impressed with higher capacity magazines before full auto rifles were developed. There was a 25 round magazine conversion developed for the 03 Springfield. They made them for 98 Mausers too. They never became standard issue for all rifles. The SMLE was standard issue with a detachable 10 round box magazine and they could have easily increased its capacity. The Swiss decreased the magazine capacity of the later Schmidt Ruben designs from 12 to 6. If there was an advantage to increasing magazine capacity on the bolt actions, the military users didn't seem to notice it. The foreign contemporary semi autos of the Garand usually maxxed out magazine capacity at 10 rounds and reloaded from the top via stripper clips.

Magazine capacities of 10 rounds, with the capability of quick reloads with clips, was considered adequate for the rate of fire a semiautomatic rifle could produce. The 8 round M1 clip provided a very fast reload and the Army apparently did not think that 2 more rounds were necessary. They probably adopted the 8 round clip to avoid the thicker bottom profile in the magazine area that was a feature of the .276 Garand rifle.

Detachable box magazines containing 20 or more rounds were not necessary until the introduction of full automatic rifles and their much higher rate of fire and ammunition consumption.

I recently got myself a Type 2 M1 Garand which I had the joys of taking out of the grease (can't wait to shoot it more once my range opens up again). I am shocked at just how ergonomic this rifle is. Safety is easy to engage and disengage. Sights are easy to use and effective. Loading is extremely fast with the 8rd clip, and if I practice a bit I am sure I could get very efficient with it. You can also keep a really low profile which is something that isn't as appreciated these days.

I would take the 8rd clip over a 10rd detachable magazine any day. No requirement to load magazines before hand, your ammo is issued on clips already. If you run out of clips your literally out of ammo so that isn't a issue. No damaged magazines to worry about. Just overall a fantastic design and until you start getting into the 20rd magazine range you really wouldn't see much of a rate of fire difference. It is also easier to produce all those clips than it is to make magazines. Plus if they were a 10rd magazine I guarantee you the military would have been insistent on stripper clip loading like just about every military at the same time period, which is slower than shoving a 8rd enbloc in.

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Originally Posted by Eaglelord17

No requirement to load magazines before hand, your ammo is issued on clips already. If you run out of clips your literally out of ammo so that isn't a issue.

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Never thought of it that way. The loaded clip is like an old camera cartridge that contains 8 shots that aren't pictures.

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It is also easier to produce all those clips than it is to make magazines. Plus if they were a 10rd magazine I guarantee you the military would have been insistent on stripper clip loading like just about every military at the same time period, which is slower than shoving a 8rd enbloc in.

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You're right about that. The Army once considered doing that with the M14 prior to its adoption. They were thinking of issuing semi auto only M14's with fixed 10 round magazines loaded with stripper clips.

Many GIs said they valued the Ping! that alerted them to an empty rifle in a firefight.

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Originally Posted by bob seijas

Many GIs said they valued the Ping! that alerted them to an empty rifle in a firefight.

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I've read that in official troop surveys done by the Army. I believe the Army came to the same conclusion although I have not seen official documents stating so. I do believe that the Army could have muted the ping sound if they thought it was a problem by a change in clip metallurgy or through design changes.

Rock, What Bob is saying is the shooter can hear it and be alerted that his rifle is empty. He is not talking about the false story always told about G.I.'s tossing clips so the enemy would jump up and charge so they could shoot them. Rick B

Understood Rick. I was referring to the ping being a sort of an empty rifle alarm that aided the shooter. I believe the Army thought the same way too. There is probably a document confirming that somewhere in the National Archives awaiting discovery.

On YouTube there is a video of a veteran speaking about his time in battle. He was a truck driver that got cornered in a house and at the 12:20 mark, he starts to describe the M1 and the ping sound and how the enemy knew he was out of ammunition. I know it's not the norm situation, but this is an interesting story he tells to say the least. I wish I knew how to post links to this site but the video is titled "surrounded by the enemy"

"Surrounded by the enemy" Have a listen at about twelve minutes onward. Comes in about twelve minutes thirty...

You still can't hear that clang over gunfire though...

SURROUNDED BY THE ENEMY: WWII Veteran Describes Fighting for Survival! - YouTube

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

"Surrounded by the enemy" Have a listen at about twelve minutes onward. Comes in about twelve minutes thirty...

You still can't hear that clang over gunfire though...

SURROUNDED BY THE ENEMY: WWII Veteran Describes Fighting for Survival! - YouTube

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Thank you BAR, that's exactly the video I was referring to. Very interesting story nonetheless

---------- Post added at 03:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:49 PM ----------

I also thought it was interesting that he mentions that at the time, that they had heard rumors that that had worked. He called them tricks. I agree there's no way you could hear that in a huge gunfight, but I guess in certain situations you could

---------- Post added at 03:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:52 PM ----------

I always thought that the enblock clip / ping story was a post-war thing

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Originally Posted by jond41403

I also thought it was interesting that he mentions that at the time, that they had heard rumors that that had worked. He called them tricks. I agree there's no way you could hear that in a huge gunfight, but I guess in certain situations you could

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I suppose it might work in a one on one situation or with one soldier guarding a staircase. The enemy would have to think that they were facing one opponent for them to rush his position after a ping.

I found an interesting ordnance photo showing the development of the M1 clip dated 12-4-31. The top row displays 10 round .30 caliber clips, so there should have been a 10 round capacity, prototype .30 caliber Garand rifle early on. However, I have yet to come across a photo of that rifle.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ip_dev_I-1.jpg

So what are we to make of this? It's 10 rounds of 30-06. Attachment 117357

Where'd you find that one Bob?

Can't say, it would give away the answer :)

It's a very interesting piece...

If I was deaf, I think a chunk of metal flying up might be a clue.

I know the Mondragon had an early clip but not aware of 30-06 usage. I’ll have to put my google foo techniques to work as I haven’t seen a Garand 10 round with that shape. Thank you for posting Bob.

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Originally Posted by bob seijas

So what are we to make of this? It's 10 rounds of 30-06.

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Final clip design for .30 cal 10 shot Garand that was never completed?

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Originally Posted by bob seijas

So what are we to make of this? It's 10 rounds of 30-06.

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Looks a bit like the Pederson clips.

Pretty close... it's for the White rifle that lost to the T3E2 Garand. The White gas system was used in the M14.
Attachment 117394

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Originally Posted by bob seijas

Pretty close... it's for the White rifle that lost to the T3E2 Garand. The White gas system was used in the M14.

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The action on that looks similar to the Pederson .276; which makes me wonder what it would be like loading an enbloc clip in a toggle action like the Pederson.

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Originally Posted by ROCK

makes me wonder what it would be like loading an enbloc clip in a toggle action

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I'd like to take it for a test drive too, but the tag suggests it's not fit.

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Originally Posted by bob seijas

Pretty close... it's for the White rifle that lost to the T3E2 Garand. The White gas system was used in the M14.
https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....d=117394&stc=1

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Boy, you can really see why the Garand was built for eight, can't you? That middle section is lardy!

Bob

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Originally Posted by Bob Womack

That middle section

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Yes, pretty pregnant. Imagine doing an equipment march carrying that by the balance in one hand and the box of .30 caliber in the other... I wonder how it made out in the bayonet assault course?

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Originally Posted by Bob Womack

Boy, you can really see why the Garand was built for eight, can't you? That middle section is lardy!

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The 10 shot .276 Garand had that pregnant look too. I believe that is why the .30 Garand was trimmed down to 8 round and not because of the minimally larger base diameter .30 caliber round; .447 for .276 vs. .473 for the .30

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...jpeg5902-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

I'd like to take it for a test drive too, but the tag suggests it's not fit.

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Here's the closest to a test drive I could find. Loading the 10 round clip at about 2:09. Definitely looks clumsy compared to loading a Garand. After the loaded clip is inserted, the bolt overrides the top round and closes on an empty chamber which indicates that one could easily get Pederson thumb when loading a full clip; something that is not possible when loading a full clip into a Garand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiorirT0C_Y

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Originally Posted by ROCK

Here's the closest to a test drive I could find.

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I saw that one too. I'd like to take some of these for a run...

Respected military historians such as Chris McNab, who pens the “Weapons Check” column for Military History Quarterly, embrace the story. “The sound of the clip ejecting could be a useful auditory alert for an enemy that his opponent’s gun was empty,” McNab wrote in A History of the World in 100 Weapons.

So does William Atwater, former director of the U.S. Army Ordnance Training and Heritage Center and a Marine combat veteran. During a Military Channel documentary detailing the characteristics of the M-1, Atwater said American soldiers even carried empty clips to throw on the ground in an effort to lure their German and Japanese enemies out into the open.

And if family history means anything, my father and an uncle – one a veteran of the U.S. Army during World War II, the other a veteran of the Marine Corps during the same war and the Korean War – both told me the same stories.

The M-1 was an amazing rifle, they said, but that ping could get you in trouble

1) the ping

It may have happened once or twice, but there is no possible way it was a common practice that worked. iv been in quite a few firefights, u are not hearing a ping coming from the enemy. also 99% u are with multiple people pinging all at diffrent times, but fire is still being put down. Its bullshit. Here is another thing no one wants to admit to. Vets Lie or missrember. They will addopt stories they hear from other people as their own. Iv served just shy of 20 years, and have deployments, iv seen it, and im sure i probly exaggerated myself or missrembered events.

2) Magazine vs Clip
i will take a magazine any day over a clip. even if its same amount of ammo. its faster to reload and more ergonomic to do so. It also allows u to change out mags to top off during a low in the fight at anytime.

the military back then and before had a mind set of "we dont want our guys to waist ammo" well suppressive fire is not wasting ammo. and is vital to modern tactics. more rounds shot, more the enemy is fixed and more of a chance they will be hit. One shot one kill is unrealistic, dangerous mindset and ineffective for infantry in a firefight.

The army works in sections, platoons, and similar groups, often with machine and submachine guns, etc. It is unlikely that one ping would encourage a charge by the enemy, even if they could hear it at the distance they would be - rifle shooting distance - as the rest of the group would still be there. House clearing is never alone, who is with you in the foxhole, etc. I would imagine the ping would have been rectified if it had been that much of an issue.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Rochester

The M-1 was an amazing rifle, they said, but that ping could get you in trouble

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Possibly a problem in a couple of situations during close contact. Visuals could be a problem too. The locked back slide of a 1911 could be a visual indication of an empty weapon if seen by the enemy, but I've never heard any mention of that. The raised toggle bolt of the Pederson rifle would have been very obvious to an opponent if that rifle had been adopted.

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Originally Posted by Gilevi

Vets Lie or missrember.

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Very much so and not so much dishonestly. I had a situation decades back that I recalled clearly about being in a spot and a man I knew well was in the vehicle with me...a few years ago I mentioned it and he told me he was in the other vehicle...all those years I had it wrong.

Why do we go through this whole thing about the M1 ping over and over...?

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Why do we go through this whole thing about the M1 ping over and over...?

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Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem.

No more things should be presumed to exist than are absolutely necessary.

The simple explanation is that both cases are true in a full scale push it is very unlikely to hear the ping yet if a soldier is isolated it can be an issue.

The problem come in when it is absolutely held that it is an either or proposition both are true

SURROUNDED BY THE ENEMY: WWII Veteran Describes Fighting for Survival! - YouTube

http://thegca.org/wp-content/uploads...52-reduced.pdf

Page 5 #10. The noise caused by ejection of the empty clip from the M-1, despite the fact that at close range it could be heard by the enemy, was considered valuable by the rifleman as a signal to reload


The Ml's Tactical Advantage?

The "Question & Answer" on "The Ml 's 'Deadly Defect?'" (November 2011, p. 42) reminded me of a conversation I had with my dad regarding the Ml Garand and its clip during WorldWar II. I just got off the phone with my dad to confirm his Garand clip experiences. His name is Robert Emary, and he served in I Company, 506th Parachute Infantry Regiment, l0lst Airborne Division. When the war ended, he was a technical sergeant and first sergeant for the company. He was a replacement and fought from Market Garden to Berchtesgarten.

According to him, at Bastogne it was very common practice to bait the Germans by squeezing and releasing an empty clip to get the "ping," and a lot of times an enemy would stand up, and that was the end of them. Initially, the Germans always seemed to know the exact time to expose themselves to put accurate fire on someone who had just emptied their Garand. He and his comrades knew the Germans could hear the clips coming out and also figured they were counting rounds. This happened pretty regularly at Bastogne, he said, because there were a lot of close-range engagements in the woods and dug in positions. Also, he always carried a couple empty clips in his field jacket pocket and would simply squeeze the clip, let it slide out of his fingers, hit the ground and be ready to shoot. After they started doing this, the Germans got a lot more cautious.

He also told me some of the other tactics they used. When they were badly outnumbered, which was almost all the time, the Browning Automatic Rifleman would initially never fire other than a couple semi-automatic rounds. They were baiting the Germans and trying to get a number of them to get bold and expose themselves. When this happened the BAR man would let them have it. He said this was very effective and several times got them out of some bad situations. ~

DAVE EMARY, NEBRASKA

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...yFather3-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by Gilevi

Vets Lie or missrember. They will addopt stories they hear from other people as their own.

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Amen. The ping allegation is pure bull$hit invented by somebody who wanted to sound smart. It's total crap.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Rochester

Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem.

No more things should be presumed to exist than are absolutely necessary.

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Occam's razor: "entities should not be multiplied without necessity" I've often wondered how soldiers who certainly had "temporary threshold shift" (temporary reduction of hearing due to overload) and very possibly "shooter's notch" (permanent loss of hearing in a notch in the midrange due to exposure to firearms noise without hearing protection) could detect the ping of a clip ejection in anything other than utter silence and the clip being ejected onto a hard surface.

Bob

I love Occam's Razor... Ft. Dix distilled it down to "The simplest answer is the best answer."

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Originally Posted by Mark in Rochester

http://thegca.org/wp-content/uploads...52-reduced.pdf

Page 5 #10. The noise caused by ejection of the empty clip from the M-1, despite the fact that at close range it could be heard by the enemy, was considered valuable by the rifleman as a signal to reload

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That's a very interesting report. I did a quick scan and on pg. 77 there was a mention of difficulty loading clips. Also, three officers stated their preference of magazines over clips. I wonder if there was any desire for the M1 to use 20 round BAR magazines? I haven't seen anything critical of the 8 round capacity of the clips. GI's were familiar with BAR magazines and I wonder if they would have preferred the bulkier 20 round magazine vs.the lighter and more compact 8 round clip.

I know that a couple of experimental rifles were produced that used different types of magazines that eliminated the clips. One of them used a Johnson type rotary magazine. Another was a side loader. Both were loaded with two 5 round stripper clips. There did not seem to be any desire to increase capacity beyond 10 rounds though. However, the Army did adopt the 20 round magazine for the full auto T20 rifles due to their high rate of fire.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...h650auto-1.jpg

I love the Op rod handle being on top in the picture above. It would be neat to get to work the action on that rifle

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Originally Posted by jond41403

I love the Op rod handle being on top in the picture above. It would be neat to get to work the action on that rifle

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That vertical handle would eliminate one way used to minimize M1 thumb; using the edge of the hand to block the op rod when closing the bolt. Looks like that protruding magazine would be in the way too.

I guess one would have to use two hands to close the bolt on that rifle.