What are the chances this Winchester carbine is actually from the DCM/ NRA?
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/903741425
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What are the chances this Winchester carbine is actually from the DCM/ NRA?
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/903741425
The Railway Express label and Red River punchcard look about right. My DCM 1911 came boxed up similarly from Rock Island in 1961. That was when you had to be an NRA member and in a sanctioned shooting club to buy from DCM direct. Hard to to tell, but it's been unmolested in someone's closet for sixty years or the most expert forgery I've ever seen.
$20 investment did very well!
At first I thought it should have a Hi-Wood I cut stock.
Dug some notes out and see WRA used I cut from start of production to as late as ~1,153,591. Oval Stocks came in starting around ~1,067,649 to end of first serial number block. So there was some overlap.
Keep in mind these are old notes.... :surrender:
Also have noted Large Boxed WRA/GHD with CC beside it until ~1,067,649.
Unboxed W.R.A. over G.H.D. with CC beside it starting at ~1,055,513.
So some overlap there also.
About GB 903741425,
The 2 weld spots on the barrel band are some of the most prominent I've ever seen, usually you can barely see them.
Picture #24 (Below) Look at how much extra room there is around the Magcatch.
Wear ? Or possibly worn/weak Spring ?
Safety caught my attention, thinking it should be checkered, but a plain faced Type II would be expected.
Just something about there being No Finish Wear on that Safety. Possibly replaced ?
Really nice honest looking Carbine. I have a number above and below this #. It should make a buyer happy. Speaking of Buyers....... I see some very knowledgeable Bidders going after it. Good Luck to All :thup:
Thx arbo34 for the link.
Pic of Mag Catch fit and Safety:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...53782319-1.jpg
ETA: Here's The Mag Catch fit on WRA 1,030,621 for comparison
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC08087-1.jpg
I’m expect this carbine to go for upwards of 3k+, out of my price range. Was curious to see if it’s possible that it could be a DCM carbine since there is no receipt with its serial number on it like I’ve seen on others, but I guess if the rarer parts aren’t faked, like the flip sight, dogleg hammer, or the type 1 barrel band, it could be possible.
It does look like a pretty sloppy fit. Don’t think any spring and plunger combination could affect that.Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777
I didn't see any paperwork showing the carbine came in that box - maybe just overlooked it. I guess I'm getting picky, but saw more than just the safety that raised some questions. - Bob
I agree with not having any paperwork saying that carbine was actually shipped in that box. If you don’t mind me asking what else has raised some questions for you? I’m trying to learn and what to look for, I’ll be ordering the CCNL newspapers in a few weeks.Quote:
Originally Posted by USGI
Is the trigger housing Type II or Type III ? I can't really see the rear bevels. Serial stamped May 15, 1943...... Too early for a Type III TH ?
Charlie in CCNL 336, it says that Type III housings showed up as early as serial #1068244.
Thx Again Wayne,
After posting the SN# stamping date then adding finish up time,,,,,, I was about to Edit this. Seller has described as T2 TH but I see no bevels.
Had to been some overlap I have 1,069 with T2 TH and 1,071 with Type III TH.
Appears the Shipping/receipt has been torn off. This one was a COD.
I'm waiting on GIBOB to look up the wrap: MIL-B-121B :lol:
To me it's a nice Winchester with a box added. The part with the serial number of the Carbine inside is missing UNLESS I OVERLOOKED IT. The paperwork is strategically torn and gone where the serial is populated. There would've been another sheet identical to the one on the outside that isn't glued to anything, so, where is it?
It's just as likely to be a mix-master shipment someone put an early Carbine with.
Something I've wondered, but isn't as import of a point as the above, did DCM even ship Carbines with type I rear sights?
They came in all flavors.Quote:
Originally Posted by tenOC
The M1 carbines sold through the DCM in the 1960's were "unserviceable-unclassified, safe to fire". Meaning they could be in any condition, new, used, or re-built . They were sent in the condition they were stored in, meaning as packed and no further upgrades etc would be carried on. Shipped with no magazine, sling, or oiler.
Years ago I had read that these sales were recorded by RIA (IIRC) and could be verified through the CMP. But I'm not positive about this sales record/CMP Verification.
I remember someone here had put up pics of the NRA application form, but don't recall who it was.
Bruce McA, Could likely add to this. If he Sobers up :cheers:
That doesn't sound at all definitive. I want to know one specific thing, not all varieties of things. Did DCM release Carbines with type I sights? That's all. Anything else is just fluff confusion.
Are there multiple examples with the serial populated on the paperwork showing and with an undisturbed type I sight in place? Because one example could be a correction that wasn't upgrade staked for the adjustable sight.
It is in this old thread, still does not answer Doug's question about Flips on DCM carbines.Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=41987
The DCM / NRA M1 Carbine, M1911 series pistol and M1903A3 rifle I obtained were shipped freight collect. Mine all came Railway Express Agency and I paid the driver the freight costs. My M1 rifle, ordered in 1995 thru the DCM (no NRA involved) and shipped on a DD1348, in 1996, was sent via pre-paid registered mail, insured. I had to pick it up at the post office.
Thx Wayne.
I read what Tom in NJ wrote in that link and compared to what I wrote above it's like I plagiarized his reply. :lol:
But I recall Marcus, Roger, David B, Bruce McA, and others saying that some did come with a Flip Sight, some being as produced, some partially and some fully rebuilt.
That's what I mean about 'All Flavors'.
Sorry Ten if this comes off as Fluff.
I've been told YES, that some came with Flip Sights.Quote:
Originally Posted by tenOC
That's 2 specific requests ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by tenOC
Just proof that they exist, but yes. Multiples, so some of us can be convinced. I'm a cynic and a skeptic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777
That's a good thing in the Milsurp hobby.Quote:
Originally Posted by tenOC
Quote:
Originally Posted by arbo34
It's going to be awhile (if ever) since I'm several days behind on reading emails and posts from various forums. I looked at all 120+ pictures the first morning this thread was up - saw 2-3 things I thought would make me pass on it if I was looking to buy a carbine right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777
I did notice the "brand new" untouched look of the wrap, Charlie - and one of those slings we've seen several times that not everyone agrees on.
I have saved images of DCM papers from other carbine auctions and when I have time, will look to see if I have pics of the guns, and if any had Type 1 rear sights.
I went back a day or so later and read the seller's description and thought it was more honest than most - never claimed the gun came in that box and a couple other things that sounded trustworthy to me. It will be interesting to see if those bidders you mentioned stay the course or not? :dunno: - Bob
See it has a new owner.Quote:
Originally Posted by arbo34
Anyone look at pictures #69, #70 and #71?
I was just looking at the finish wear under the front/bottom of the Receiver.
And wondering how it got so much finish loss there.
Does it look like it's had a Receiver Wrench on it ?
Curious to others thoughts.... :confused:
Here's Pic #70
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...65017490-1.jpg
Years ago Marty contacted me and wanted some info about my 5.6 Win which was thought to be an original gun. He had a Winchester that was very close to mine in number and was curious about some marks on his new one. It was around 150 or so close to mine, had a flip sight (Mine had a type 3) and some scratches, rather crunch marks like the receiver had been in a vise. Mine didn't have any but otherwise it was a good example of how different these guns can be. If I recall, the marks looked somewhat similar to what is here except smaller. Of course there was no chance that Marty's carbine was anything but an original weapon. A very nice carbine it was.
My DCM M1 (1983) came out of Rock Island and was ( This is what we heard at the gun club) one of a small group of very carefully rebuilt rifles that were destined for some foreign sale. The sale apparently didn't go through and these silver sack weapons went on the RI racks. The silver sack was opened to get the # They were apparently done in Dec of 65 by some people who really took care. The stock was new walnut and it weighs about a full pound more than a regular one. Heavy dense walnut. Glass bedded at the trigger housing, new wood forward, new barrel 11/65, new gas cylinder, SA 3.3 receiver, milled trigger guard, bolt was not new, new HRA op rod, new late bullet guide etc. It came with new cleaning kid, sling, and delron guards on sight and muzzle. It was unfired and took ten men and a small horse to snap the trigger guard. The gas cylinder had to be removed with a block of wood and hammer. Nobody else in our club got one of these. Most of theirs came from Texas and were NG guns with the standard wowee on the stock where they were tossed into the jeep trailer. The club received everything from NM rifles to beat up junkers, it was just what was the next one on the rack.
I just can't picture how it could be positioned in a Vice that would leave this area finish worn.
Clamped on the sides, I can understand, but from this spot, the other jaw would be on the front (top) receiver ring.
No big deal, was - am just curious.
Good Weekend All
There is no way a single use of a receiver wrench (or even several uses) could cause that much finish wear, even if it was only painted.Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777
Hi Eb,
Any thoughts from that particular wear pattern ?
@ Dave HH,
I didn't give the bottom of a vice a thought. Was just thinking about the 2 sides.
__________________________________________________ __________________
I just thought it appeared to be unusual wear in a area you don't commonly see it.
Safe Sunday All,
I'm not saying it is legit, but you just never know. I can imagine that when some company is under the gun to produce 1,000 a day and there is a receiver sitting there not being finished, some foreman comes up and says "Charlie, get that thing out of here!" and the guy does what it takes to make it work and out the door. Like when Rock-Ola had all of those parts and barrels that were slightly out of spec but would work and the barrels were bent and SA sends over a crew of guys and in a few days they eyeball the barrels and using arbor presses and lead hammers makes hundreds of good parts out of scrap. Charlie, I'm sure you've seen enough carbines that look like a blind man built them, not indexed correctly, sights crooked nothing lines up but they passed and will kill a man at 75 yds so they were issued. In WB there is a part where Inland went to ordnance and essentially admitted that a lot of barrels are just so-so but will still get the job done and the Army said go ahead and use them.Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777
One more thing that I forgot to mention: Winchester assembled after finishing the parts, so yes it has had a receiver wrench on it. It may be just me but that finish looks really dark, more like an Inland finish than a Winchester.
WRA was hardly known for their aesthetically pleasing fit and finish, but the possibilities with 6 plus million made are all over the map.
I'm not sure if it's anything or not but did anyone notice in picture number 39 on top of the receiver ring, there is a straight line marking that looks like something dug in on the top, maybe whatever left the wear pattern on the underside? The few pictures of receiver rings I have sifted through do not have this Mark.
Some guys will kiss anything. Nuf said about that.
Yep! "I guess I'm getting picky, but saw more than just the safety that raised some questions." - BobQuote:
Originally Posted by jond41403
I've seen home made receiver wrenches used, heard of guys using large crescent wrenches, stillsons and even pipe wrenches.
A now deceased friend had 2 receivers that he had crushed while trying to R and R.
Guess anything is possible as to this finish wear.
As stated, Was just curious to other's thoughts.
Wishing now I never brought it up.
Replies may be a indicator of why this forum has become so slow.
:dunno:
That was my thought too. I've seen the barrel flats grabbed in protected vise jaws and the crescent wrench(15") applied to the receiver top and bottom. Looked just like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777
I learned a long time ago that assumptions and speculations are generally incorrect. So I have no idea how that wear of the finish occurred, but in my experience as a retired machinist, mechanic, and gunsmith, it would generally take multiple use of a wrench to cause such wear in my opinion. Which is mine and mine alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777