I’m sure I’m not the only one wondering why.
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I’m sure I’m not the only one wondering why.
I guess the 2 French milsurps in my safe are fakes.....
I suppose mine is too Singer:) When I started my interest in milsurps, my goal was obtain or build service rifle shooters from all the WW2 allies. I waited long and hard for the right French MAS 36. Pre-occupation examples are hard to come by - many that I would find looked like they were hidden away in a cave or barn by resistance fighters, to be abandoned or forgotten to rust away until found decades later. I don't have a pre-occupation MAS, and don't care to find one as I have my shooter and enjoy it. I'd have to look in my file cabinet but I think the receiver dates to early 50's soon after production started again, and the barrel is pristine 1964. Fortunately it had an "N", or centered rear sight aperture, and the front obelisk seems to be dead on at 100 yds.
I have not dug too far by way of documentation, but conversations with old timers at my shooting club point to the fact that most of the French small arms were left behind at Dunkirk and destroyed by the Germans, and those elements that evacuated and later invaded with the Brits carried Lee Enfields. So, why are French milsurps from that time so rare (comparitevely)? Well, common sense...the French factories missed out on the greatest period of war-time small arms production the world has ever seen, and I don't think the numbers produced after the war for use abroad even comes close. They aren't "rare" so to speak, just not as prevalent for the reasons stated.
Now I'm sure I've opened up a can a worms. Before I get yelled at then - Disclaimer...I have no "solid" position on the matter, I'm happy to be told I'm wrong, evolve, and would love to hear more...hopefully with documented evidence and sources and not the hearsay I've already heard (especially since it has the understandably American bias:))
There are, do a search on the forum for MAS, Berthier, Gras, etc.
Haha! I was at a gun show in southern California about a month ago. One of the vendors had a "mint, unfired Mas-36" for sale. The gun was in beautiful condition and the vendor was adamant that it was unfired. I explained to him that the French had refurbished all of them to like new condition before exporting them to the USA and I had a beautiful 36 at home just like his. I'm sure someone at the show believed him and paid the $900 he was asking. My Mas 49/56 was one of the Century Arms .308 conversions that normally don't work well, but mine works just fine thank goodness.
I always wondered why as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by KneverKnew
I think what he means tis there doesn't seem to be a dedicated subforum like Italian Rifles, Soviet Bloc, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daan Kemp
Well there's only one way to get one, Pester Badger and post pic's and info on French Arms.
That's what I did with Italian ones and low and behold.....a new forum.
Good point, didn't think of that? I thought it was like the old French rifle joke.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherlock913
And what would that be?Quote:
Originally Posted by Singer B
"Rifle for sale. Description: Never fired...only dropped once."
Well, If badger makes a forum. It's been on my list to tighten up the stock on my otherwise perfect MAS 36. I'll contribute the first sticky.
Vive la France
An estimated 500,000 French men and women worked for the Resistance during Germany's occupation of France. Resistance workers carried out thousands of acts of sabotage against the German occupiers. The risks were great. More than 90,000 resisters were killed, tortured or deported by the Germans.
The French Resistance - D-Day | NZHistory, New Zealand history online
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5rv3XrC_tQ
:cheers:
Reportedly, if it wasn't for the bravery of the French soldiers, Dunkirk may have turned out very very badly. Poor leadership shouldn't reflect on the reputation of the combatants on the field IMHO.
I've never seen any for sale at my usual haunts. When I do see them at shows the asking prices generally require a second mortgage.
My guess is those that collect them exclusively are a) hoarders and b) refuse to pass away so their estate can't liquidate their collections!
I also have a theory about being buried with but I'll get to that another day.
That is pretty much how I started. I wanted an Italian, a German, a Japanese, a Russian, an American, a French and an English gun.Quote:
Originally Posted by ssgross
Then I bumped into my first Mauser…, then the Smelly…
Turned out that I skipped several times the Mas or Berthier, the Arisaka 99 once…
Sooner or later, though!
my dog got my MAS 36 for me as a gift last Christmas. She saved her treats for months. I have to check my records, but I think it was ~$650. I've seen a couple Lebels in shops now and again, but nothing recently. They were usually ~1000-2000, depending on how many parts were missing, how much pitting or how bad it had been cut up.Quote:
Originally Posted by oldfoneguy
Ovideo's Post,
Reminded me of a Web Site I came across that lists most every War time country and their Weapons. I don't know how accurate it is but the link is below.
I was reading a random search result about the Johnson M. 1941 Light Machine Gun a few days back.
It read:
"Built by Johnson to partner the M1941 rifle, the M1941 light machine gun used the same recoil operation, it was fed by a side mounted curved magazine which could hold 20 rounds. Dutch KNIL Forces ordered the Johnson in 1941, but they got overran before the shipment could be made, the remaining stocks were used by US Special Forces, 127 saw action in Italy with the Devils Brigade."
But more interesting was a link I followed that lists most Armies you've heard of.
Once on the Web Site a drop box below the Countries opens to list that Countries':
AFV's, Artillery, Companies, Divisions, Infantry Weapons, Support Vehicles, Regiments, Brigades and Groups, Tanks.... as they pertain from the period 1920-1950.
The Site is called: 'Quartermaster Section'
I'm finding it informative with some great pictures and hope anyone interested also finds it interesting.
Web Site Link:
Quartermaster Section | WW2 Tanks & Weapons Specifications
Here's the example of the US INFANTRY WEAPONS. There is a Filter on the left where you can choose ALL, WEAPONS or SUPPORT WEAPONS. I use the ALL Option, so everything is included. Remember you can use the drop box under any country listed.
Search results for US INFANTRY WEAPONS with Filter clicked on ALL:
US Infantry Weapons Featured in WW2 – Quartermaster Section
I'd be interested in opinions on this Web Sites Accuracy from those better schooled about other Countries Weaponry or about the Site itself.
Thx :cheers:
I don't think the 308 converted MAS 36's have problems, it's the MAS 49/56 semi autos that tend to have problems.
Considering the uniqueness of most French firearms, I am of the opinion they deserve their own forum. Back when I was heavily into searching for them to purchase, it would have been helpful.
I am no longer actively searching, I have a Chassepot, Gras, Lebel Rifle, Lebel Carbine, Berthier Rifle, Berthier Carbine, MAS 36, MAS 49/56 and two handguns which wouldn't be in a rifle forum.
Only one I'm still interested in would be a Gras in 8mm Lebel but they aren't exactly easy to find. I suppose if a Gras Carbine walked into my life it might go home with me if the price was right. The RTI Ethiopian ones are too expensive for the condition they are in in my humble opinion.
I have one of those Gras, pretty cool rifle, possibly the most accurate rifle I own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
To the OP they are going up in popularity thanks partially to Ian McCollum's Chassepot to FAMAS (excellent book by the way), partially due to the internet allowing more information to be shared. I just sold a Berthier M1907/15, which I really liked the rifle just received a better offer than I could refuse. Heres a thread I did years ago on it shooting. https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=54444
Overall though very cool subject matter. Unique firearms development, reliable if unconventional by modern standards arms which have a ton of history and if in good condition (many are not) tend to be very accurate. I personally hope to get more in the future, at least a Berthier, Lebel, and Mas 36 for my action type collection. The prices are only going up though.
There is always the right way, the wrong way, and then, of course, the French way, which won't be close to any of the first two.
I think I posted this pic back when I cleaned it up...My puppy always gets me the best Christmas presents.
Attachment 118955
as soon as there is a French Milsurps forum, I'll refit the forend and contribute a step-by-step and results.
Does this qualify as a French Milsurp?
Attachment 118960
No wonder you are not hunting anymore, you have them all! In reference to the converted .308 MAS 49/56's, I was able to obtain one about 2 years ago for $400. I was a little worried after researching them and seeing all of the negative comments about them. I must say, I must have gotten lucky because the rifle functions flawlessly. It is a complete numbers mis-match and the metal isn't very pretty, but she works perfectly! My MAS-36 in 7.5 works great also, but how in the hell are you supposed get a sight picture with that small aperture and massive front sight post? It is the worst sight system I've ever encountered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
I just get a kick out of the French creating the MAS 36 so it can't be messed with by the troops and they never noticed the troops could manage to incapacitate two rifles by locking them together with the bayonet.
You lot continue to fascinate me, you keep ratting on about a French thread, but none of you are pestering Badger....he's just sitting back laughing.
I asked directly years ago and was told no. Didn't make sense then, doesn't make sense now. But not my page.Quote:
Originally Posted by muffett.2008
I had this one come in a few weeks back, now sold to a happy Customer
I found one for 550€. Am thinking about it…
The Mas-36 is a good shooting rifle and has easy to find components . 7.5mm brass is made now [ when I started shooting them I had to use converted 6.5x55mm ] and any short bearing surface .30 cal bullet is ok . I have two pre WWII rifles , several post war refits , a FR-1 sniper , and a CR-39 . The CR-39 did shoot much better than I though it would . I also have one each of the MAS -44 series of semi-autos , plus a sniper . As far as the rest of the French rifles , I never had that much problem finding them . I have all the Gras models , Chassepot , 32 Lebels and Berthiers , All models , 8mm and 7.5mm , 3 and 5 shot , and all carbines . Also the 8mm Gras and Rolling block and a French Win .351 . I did a massive shooting test on all of the 8mm rifles . Slugged all the bores [ that really determined what bullets shot best ] and tested over 20 different loads at 100 yards .
I recall Martin B. Retting offering these converted to straight pull, many years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by hatrick
Would like to have an 1886/93, a Berthier, and a G98 to go with my Mk. III Ross rifles. The way prices have gone, this isn't going to happen; no more Rosses either, for the same reason.
and the aperture drilled off-center to zero at the factory after brazing in the front sight. I can't understand that one. "Let's make dozens of variations of a single part so that we don't have to make a single nice-n-tight dovetail like the Russians did".Quote:
Originally Posted by Singer B
mine has a centered rear aperture...and shoots about 1/2moa left. easily fixed since the obelisk in front is so huge...thin stripe of fingernail polish puts it dead on. After I completely took it apart and cleaned it up, it took ~10-20 rounds for the forestock to settle into a good place. Now it shoots consistently. I had a target posted on here somewheres. The forestock is still a little loose. It'll shoot even better if I shim the rear and front of the barrel, or cut a few more beer cans up to shim where the screw plate is.