WINCHESTER WWII M97 RIOT GUN

I'm new to the Forum and have many questions about my WWII M97 Riot Gun. It was purchased back in the late 80's if I recall correctly. It displays the correct "US" and Ordinance stamps in the normal locations but no cartouch on the stock. It displays "42" under the barrel in the proper location however the butt plate is steel not plastic. The finish is parkerized presumably over the original blue and very uneven or blotchy.

I feel confident it's mostly all original but the metal butt plate and lack of stock cartouch is confusing. I'm interested in converting it to a Trench Gun and have an original "W" marked bayonet adapter and mag plug but no usable hand guard.

It would be most appreciated if the more experienced and educated than myself on M97 Riot and Trench Guns would offer comment and possible advise.

(Photos are available but don't see a means here anywhere on my post to download them.)

Thanks for any advise and suggestions.

Madcap[/QUOTE]

I would suspect the butt may just be a replacement. I'm not sure it's value will be retained by changing it to a trench but it's yours, so... Pics would help some to identify it's place in collectables. Also we'd love to see it.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

I would suspect the butt may just be a replacement. I'm not sure it's value will be retained by changing it to a trench but it's yours, so... Pics would help some to identify it's place in collectables. Also we'd love to see it.

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I have several photos for download to help with the description but can not figure out how to access the "Advanced" option.

I read the butt plate could be an earlier version but that doesn't explain lack of any arsenal rework cartouch. All that being said, including an even, blotchy parked finish has diminished my interest in retaining the original Riot Gun value that much. Also, many Riot Guns were converted by the military to Trench Guns anyway. However, I won't do anything to it yet at all at least until I confirm a bit more possible detail information.

Hopefully I'll be able to figure out how to add some photos. Doug - one of the moderators or whatever has been trying to help me understand but so far I don't get it. I read where there should be an "Advance" option to add images to a post but I do not see it.

Thanks for your interest ~

If you're using a cell phone look to the lower left between the UP button and the word Copyright. You should see the word light, dark or medium.
Click on that and touch one of the 3 words that doesn't have a blue dot next to it that will put you in desktop mode.
Then at the bottom of the dialog box will be 2 buttons Click go advanced.
Three sections below the dialog box will be manage attachments.
Click that go into your gallery click on then download the pictures you want to use.
It's easier than it sounds and once you get it to work you'll never forget how.

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Originally Posted by Madcap

I have several photos for download

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See your PMs...

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Originally Posted by oldfoneguy

If you're using a cell phone look to the lower left between the UP button and the word Copyright. You should see the word light, dark or medium.
Click on that and touch one of the 3 words that doesn't have a blue dot next to it that will put you in desktop mode.
Then at the bottom of the dialog box will be 2 buttons Click go advanced.
Three sections below the dialog box will be manage attachments.
Click that go into your gallery click on then download the pictures you want to use.
It's easier than it sounds and once you get it to work you'll never forget how.

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Hi, thanks very much. I'm using my laptop (Windows10).

Ah HA...! Finally broke the code on loading photos....please see the first post and note in the attached photos to what I'm trying to refer to.

Splotchy park like that usually suggests a poor job of stripping blue off before parkerizing. Or the other way also...a good fine bead blast before refinish next time will sort that out. Then a good parkerizing...

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Splotchy park lceke that usually suggests a poor job of stripping blue off before parkerizing. Or the other way also...a good fine bead blast before refinish next time will sort that out. Then a good parkerizing...

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I thought about re-parkerizing but the bead blasting would probably would reduce the depth of the proof marks and such more than would be worth it,

Photos are of the original Winchester "W" adapter that would need need parkerizing to match the weapon. The original magazine plug may not be usable with my magazine tube - not sure. The hand guard that came with the adapter got chopped off for some weird reason but might be used as a possible pattern if needed as a last resort.

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Originally Posted by Madcap

the bead blasting would probably would reduce the depth of the proof marks

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Silica glass beads don't abrade, that's sand blasting that removed metal. We've done lots of glass beading that cleans out marks and enhances. Use a fine silica glass bead...

Sarco shows a repro, perhaps you could pilfer the ventilated part and spot them together? Don't know how good they are.

Winchester 97 Trench Gun Bayonet Lug Heat Shield With Screws (W97058)

Then there's these, I had one in hand for Mod 12 and they aren't bad. https://www.partsforantiqueguns.com/winreparts.html

The butt plate looks like the type used by the military to replace the original Winchester black plastic butt plates when they broke. These replacement butt plates have a widow's peak on top which requires some handywork on the top of the stock near the butt to make it fit properly. Does your butt plate have this widow's peak? The entire stock could have been replaced which may account for it not having a cartouche.

The gun falls into the serial number range of the WW2 Model 97 trench guns. However, if the barrel does not have the 3 transverse grooves cut into the underside to accommodate the bayonet adaptor screws, then it is a riot gun barrel. That means it was originally a riot gun or somewhere along the way a riot barrel was installed on it. I would think twice before modifying the gun to trench gun configuration. You might actually be destroying its history. Besides, the W marked bayonet adaptor is not correct for this gun. Even if it was originally a trecnh gun it certainly would never have had the W marked parkerized adaptor.

Thanks very much for the info on the bead blasting and butt plate. The fact bead blasting would prepare the re-parkering with any damage to the surface is encouraging if i finally decide to re- finish it.

The decision of modifying from an original Riot to Trench has had me question whether it would be proper also, and does give me pause for consideration. The reason I considered the mod was the sloppy finish and lack of confirmation of an original stock. The butt plate does have the widows peak you mention and the top end of the stock is cut out to fit it. However I removed the stock and found whoever drilled the stock missed the top hole and scabbed a small, really sloppy repair.
If the "W" adapter indicated isn't correct for the later Trench guns do you know when it was used? Also to clarify the barrel underside doesn't have the three grooves cut for the adapter. The serial No. indicates post war manufacture of 1948 or '49 depending on the source.

I'll add a couple photos later tomorrow.



Cheers

You can correct poorly drilled screw holes without too much problem and then redo them correctly.

Yes sir, I've repaired poorly lined up drilled holes and will properly fix this one as well. I've also begun pulling some of the gun oil out of the stock and will refinish it with Linseed oil unless it was originally varnished....not sure.

I hope to find a copy of Joe Poyer's book to try to answer my own questions without trying to depend on internet info the but so far way out of a realistic price range.

Dick

Parkerized W marked bayonet adaptors were originally only used on the last few thousand Model 12 trench guns made during WWII that had a factory parkerized finish.

If the barrel doesn't have the 3 cuts for the adaptor screws, then it is a riot barrel. Also, a real Model 97 trench gun barrel would not have a front bead sight.

The sources you are using to determine the date of the gun are incorrect. Most of the production tables out there are wrong. The best source to determine a date of manufacture for a Winchester firearm is the Winchester Polishing Room serialization records which show the exact date the serial number was applied to the receiver. According to those records your gun was made in 1942. Military contracts for the Model 97 were completed well before the end of WWII.

Thanks Tom - You obviously have a been a student of these weapons a while and just the guy someone like me would need to know. All these years of owning my M97 have never peaked my interest more than now. I guess the older I get the more I appreciate. Anyway, I'm think I'm more inclined to leave my M97 in it's original condition rather than converting it, although it's remains a bit tempting. However, nothing will be done to it other than usual attention and care of it in it's current condition at the moment.

I'd like to acquire some spare parts and was thinking of an extra extractor, ejector, sear and trigger spring. If you could suggest or advise anything please let me know. It's always functioned fine the few times I've taken it out including occasional slam firing but hesitate to subject it to that type of abuse anymore.

Best,

Dick

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Originally Posted by Madcap

I'd like to acquire some spare parts

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Here are some choices, since you're US you can actually get these.

Winchester Model 1897 Parts | Old Arms of Idaho

Winchester 1897 Original and Reproduction Firearm Gun Parts Winchester, HOMESTEAD GUN PARTS, Specializing in Old Winchester

Winchester Model 97 1897

If you or Tom cold recommend what spare parts to consider best I'd appreciate it. Thanks for the sources.

Honestly? I have a friend uses a '97 for Cowboy action shooting and says his doesn't need anything. He's put hundreds through it in short order without failures too... I wouldn't accumulate parts that may not ever break down and then when you want them you can't find them anyway. There's no telling what will give out or maybe nothing will. How much will you actually shoot this one?

Having spare parts available just makes sense to me. Experience and my nature compels me to be prepared for occasional failures. Parts like ejectors, springs and sears can wear or fail over time or even sometimes when new. Considering my M97 is 80 years old now I'd be more inclined to have possible spares. Just as an example the first time I took an original, excellent condition Inland M1 Carbine to the range the sear broke.