Original stock color of early M1s?

Greetings! I was looking at some of the pics provided by RCS of early gas port rebuilds and something spoke to me. As I enjoy shooting, I would like to build something that would approximate one (well, as close as I can at the moment, I have some grooved handguard clips and lower bands).

I’m looking for the “proper color” if such a thing exists. Normally I strip all previous stain (even if new) and use a dye

I have read that sometime in 1942 Springfield went from a raw linseed oil dunk on stocks to a linseed/tung mix.

I have a few questions and hope to find some answers.

1. Do we know exactly when the switch to the mix happened?

2. Do we know what the actual proportion of the mix of linseed and “china wood oil” was?
3. What stain was used? Did they change the stain as production continued? (I know that they stopped using logwood earlier, also, I’ve seen pics that show very light-colored stocks, almost as if unstained Missouri black walnut).

4. Did Winchester continue using raw linseed straight or did they go to tung?

5. Did Winchester also use stain or did they use logwood? I swear I’ve seen some pics of Winchester stocks that look RED.

Also, I know everyone here collects. Is this the wrong forum for asking about this in order to put together my own? Is this more of a collectors only place?

Many Thanks

I think there’s a mix of answers regarding the use of raw linseed and or tung oil. I don’t think the finish will differ much. Both will have a similar matte/satin finish and will make the wood color look like it does when it’s wet. From my research, that reddish brown color came from the aging of the raw linseed oil over the last 75-80 years and from a mix of gun oil on the hands of the person maintaining the weapon. If you want to prematurely age the look of the wood you can blend some stains together and match the color, however it’s difficult for raw linseed oil to penetrate oil based stains. An alcohol based stain is best. Waterbased might also be an option.

Thanks.

I'm going for as issued/rebuilt mid/late 1940. I don't have any stain as it always seems to muddy up the grain. I use dye exclusively. Mission Brown gives me a nice brown color that doesn't have any red tint (unlike what seems to be *every* walnut dye out there). I normally do 100% pure tung cut with citrus solvent.

Just trying to figure out what color to make the thing for that era.

Here is a Minelli that just came in from StockysStocks. This is unsealed. All it has is stain. These last few years Numrich sourced Minelli M1 and M1917 stocks have had a thin clearcoat (nasty).

How close does this come to what was original to the era indicated? I have a park tank that I fill with toluene to strip. Attachment 123473Attachment 123474

By the way, here is an NOS Italian stock from 1971 that had its stain stripped, dyed with "mission brown", and then 12+ coats of tung oilAttachment 123475

See if you can get to Rick Borecky, he's our resident wood expert.

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Originally Posted by GColloton

If you want to prematurely age the look of the wood you can blend some stains together and match the color, however it’s difficult for raw linseed oil to penetrate oil based stains. An alcohol based stain is best. Waterbased might also be an option.

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I have played around with blending stains. There are some expensive stains on brownells, and lots of posts and instructions online for using them to reproduce the right "military" color. In my experiments, these and other stains tend to put the color "on top" of the wood, and the grain gets lost when done, producing a washed out effect that makes the wood look like it was painted with watercolors.

I got the idea on this forum to start playing around with the traditional alkanet root. You can buy a jar of "organic alkanet root powder" it on Amazon for pretty cheap. Put 3 heaping tablespoons in an 8oz jar (like those tiny ones used for jelly), top off with denatured alcohol or turpentine. Shake it every day for a week. Then pour it through a coffee filter, or just let it sit so the powder becomes sediment. Wipe on. Using alcohol adds more color in fewer coats, but is tricky to apply evenly. Turpentine takes more coats, but is impossible to screw up. Your wood will dry with with pinkish hue. Then just use linseed oil or tung oil, or whatever finishing technique you prefer (ha! folks tend to cling to their methods like true religion). With the right sanding, I have gotten new wood to look like it was kept untouched in a warehouse for 100 years.

You can also skip the alkanet "stain", and top off your 8oz jar with 1:1 turpentine and raw linseed oil. Shake every day for several weeks - ideally for a month. This makes a traditional "red oil". To add more "age" to your stock, use your alkanet stain followed by your alkanet red oil. The beauty of alkanet, and why it was used for hundreds of years before, was because the color has a translucent complexity that you can't get with modern synthetic stains. The benefit and reason for using the latter is just simply time. You can also break with finish religion and use your alkanet with store-bought boiled linseed oil or tung oil to speed up the drying time. Buy some cheap test pieces and have fun with it, then create your own religion.

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Originally Posted by ssgross

In my experiments, these and other stains tend to put the color "on top" of the wood, and the grain gets lost when done, producing a washed out effect that makes the wood look like it was painted with watercolors.

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Exactly! I've ever only used stains once and it was pretty gross.

And I will get some alkanet on order.

I would like to know, however, what did Springfield use when they stained their M1s? What did Winchester use?

There are snippets that shed light on things, like when the arsenal stopped using logwood. We know what the German ww1 helmet was painted with because it was in instructions given to troops and those survived.

I cant wait for Rick Borecky to weigh in at some point.

But all input is appreciated, as I'm being exposed to techniques I've never seen or used before.

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Originally Posted by jesse_

I cant wait for Rick borecky to weigh in at some point.

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Have you sent him a PM? It might be easier than waiting...

I just happened to be doing an old cmp replacement stock for a 1903 today. It came on an M1903 parts queen I restored, had an ugly brown stain, and previous owner oiled it with something petroleum base. by the looks of the the inside, it was grease. Anyway, I finished sanding yesterday. The wood is pretty cheap mix of sapwood walnut. I'll collect some pics for you so you can see how it went.

here you go. first pic is after staining with alkanet-alcohol last night, against a raw NOS scant I'm also working on for comparison of color. Next pick is after applying first bath of raw linseed oil today, then after letting it set for a couple hours, then I wiped off the excess and took the last pic.

Attachment 123490Attachment 123491Attachment 123492Attachment 123493

Gorgeous. What did you use to strip the old coating? Solvent? Turp?

Looks like i should pull the stain out of that minelli, eh?

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Originally Posted by jesse_

Looks like i should pull the stain out of that minelli, eh?

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I used acetone to get most of all the grease out so it wouldn't clog my sandpaper , then 80 grit paper to get the rest. Those new cheap replacement stocks (Minelli's included) are usually very fat and so plenty of wood to work with. This one had an extra 1/8" on either side of the handgaurd. I used files to get the sides and shape nice and flush after the first rough sanding, then I sanded with 100 and finally 150grit (by hand). Makes it nice and smooth, but still leaves enough to feel the wood under the finish, like an original. If I'm restoring a stock and trying to preserve the 80+ year old color, I use lacquer thinner followed by raw linseed or my red oil, depending on what the color was like. It works slower than acetone. If not careful, acetone will take everything away in a blink of an eye.

FYI, the stain on those minelli stocks is really just a light spray tan. It is only there to hide the variation in the cheap walnut. It comes off with a very, very light sanding. You could get it off completely just scuffing with 150+. I have done several of the minelli 1903 stocks. One of them had beautiful figured heartwood on one side, with red and purple swirls on the butt, and the other side was light sapwood.

jesse_ and I have been chatting about stocks/manufacturer/color on PM, and since my thread photos are no more, here are some pics.

2 Minelli stocks. I had threads with lots of pics that followed rescuing them from sporters. They are both finished with just plain organic raw linseed oil from the health food aisle of the grocery store, and lot's of time hanging in the back of the shop. That stuff is pretty good on oatmeal too, even better mixed with molasses, but that kind of defeats the health centric purpose. Oh well. The point is, there is a lot of variation in the type of walnut you get under their spray tan.
Attachment 123504
Here is the other side, and underside of the M1903 above...the wood was 2-faced! Kids call it Tommy-Lee after his role in one of the Batman movies.
Attachment 123507Attachment 123508
Notice the hand guard is 2-faced as well? That took some playing with. I got lucky one of 3 NOS hand guards I had a little knot on the left side, and produced a pretty good match :)

Here is an update on the CMP stock I started above over the weekend...another coat of home-made red oil applied this afternoon, and wiped down a couple hours later.
Attachment 123505

And here is a NOS Keystone Scant. Keystone and some of the other contractors stained them dark reddish-brown. Judging from the depth of the stain when I took it off, it was water or alcohol based. Oil based stains don't ever penetrate as deep as these were. Would have looked great just oiling it, but it had a severe blemish on the butt that needed sanded out. I finished it with just my home-made red alkanet oil. No initial alkanet/turp or alkanet/alcohol stain like I'm doing now.
Attachment 123506
I'm not claiming any of my work is perfect or authentic. Fact is I generally care more about how it feels in my hand then how it looks in the end. To get an authentic feel, don't sand above 150 grit (sandpaper manufacturers vary, 100-150, by hand is a good stopping point depending on the paper. Cheap garnet paper from harbor freight, 100 is perfect. High quality cloth backed paper, I go to 150). For looks, I wipe down my raw wood with plain turpentine or mineral spirits in order to judge the variation in grain and quality of the wood, then plan a course of action based what this wipe down looks like wet, e.g. whether to stain first, red-oil applications etc.

During WW2 the government never used anything but raw linseed oil. A gloss reflecting stock was not considered to be of much value other then to get someone killed. There was NO Tung oil used on US stocks. One has to consider that the Tung oil was controlled by the Japanese so was a bit hard to import. The US stocks were dipped into a vat of warmed Linseed oil. Once soaked enough they were removed, dripped dried and then wiped down and made ready for assembly on a M1 Garand or US 30 carbine. Flat finish so no light was reflected by the stock.

I'm just going over what I read in the Canfield book. Page 125.

Apparently the first Tung trees were cultivated for oil in the US in 1927. FOR351/FR420: Tung Oil Production in Florida

1000 tons in 1939 and 152 million pounds of oil in 1952.

Attachment 123637

As a side-note, I found some info on when Springfield stopped using logwood stain.

Also found in "The Model 1903 Springfield Rifle and its Variations" pg 26.

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Originally Posted by Bruce McAskill

government never used anything but raw linseed

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Never say never unless you have seen them all :)

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Originally Posted by bob seijas

Never say never unless you have seen them al

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At least for '03s, some of the contractors who made replacement stocks stained theirs, but did not oil. I imagine it was the same for Gov. contracted replacement M1 stocks. I think I've seen pics somewhere of NOS M1 carbine stocks that were stained by the manufacturer. Don't hold me to it though...google won't tell me yet where I saw it.

Yes, it seems to be all over the lot, from yellow swamp wood WRAs to dark walnut. I recall seeing a document that showed the desired color on a sample stock and had directions on stain if one did not match it. Of course I can't find it now :(

There is a book on the history of stocking the M1 carbine by Overton.

They paid attention to color and would use air-brushes on portions of sapwood or other inconstant portions to get the color correct.

They also did quite a bit of filling. They also had fixtures and tooling to take scrapped stocks from other manufacturers and rework them.

I'll see if I can post later this week.

They also made Garand stocks starting in 1952. All the way through and along with M14 stocks into the 60s.

According to the book the Pratt-Lambert company supplied Tung oil for M14 stock production.

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Originally Posted by bob seijas

Of course I can't find it now

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Story of my life, Bob.

SA National Match specs called for tung oil.

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Originally Posted by jesse_

They also had fixtures and tooling to take scrapped stocks from other manufacturers and rework them.

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Interesting, is there any more on that? Like why they were scrapped or visuals? Any numbers?

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Like why they were scrapped or visuals?

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Not saying it was the same for carbine stocks...but I went through 4 NOS scant field replacements, sending them all back with some sort of serious defect. They all came in original packaging, with gov. contract number printed on the side. First one had a mag cutoff recess that went all the way down to the bottom metal, second had a straight but way off-center inletting (obvious in the barrel channel and around the trigger), almost 1/4 inch off center. Correct width, but right side of the mag area was very thin. The third had almost 1/4inch extra gap behind the tang. All three came in their original packaging with the gov. contract number on the box, unstained. This discussion is starting to confirm my suspicion that the otherwise reliable retailer landed a pallet of factory seconds. The stained NOS scants at Numrich seem to be all Keystone. The inletting looks like it was scooped out by a spoon, but the fit is pretty spot on, with just enough room for minor finishing.

I once bought three factory fresh grooved lower bands. All in cosmo cheese cloth.

Deep black, you could tell they had just barely been abrasive blasted before mang park.

No machining lay to be seen and only a slight surface mismatch on one surface. Drop-Ded-Gorgeous.

Each one had their bore .010" oversize :yikes:

I bored them oversize, pressed in a 4140 bushing, fusion welded with the TIG, and then re-bored to .001" under the journal size of my barrel.

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Originally Posted by jesse_

I bored them oversize, pressed in a 4140 bushing, fusion welded with the TIG, and then re-bored to .001" under the journal size of my barrel.

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now there is an idea. My new bubba'd Remington m1903 has a rare R stamped milled lower band whose screw was stripped. My plug with a bushing, solder it (I don't weld) to hold fast, and tap the correct size as opposed to tapping for a larger screw. need to measure it first I suppose.

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Originally Posted by ssgross

They all came in original packaging, with gov. contract number printed on the side.

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Is it POSSIBLE that they were repros? Never seen in a military contract? I've seen my share of reproduction tags and packaging... They sound terrible and how would those ever be packaged and sent forward to stores? Made in Mexico or whatever...?

I've messed with some horrible M1917 stocks that were produced during WW2 (the ones marked with a number where the WW1 E, R, or W would have been). In-letting way off, ect. Those were on actual rifles.

There is a comment in the Army authorized history about accepting something like 10k M1917 barrels that didn't quite meet specs. As the war was essentially over and the rifles would probably never be used in service they were accepted.

I wonder if that happened with stocks at the end? 3.8 million M1s produced, and an insane amount of 1903/03A3s as well, *plus* the war coming to a conclusion. The need for additional replacement 1903 stocks?

I need to read up on contracts at the wars end, although I have read that we didn't want a repeat of what happened to Winchester at the end of WW1. In some areas of California ordinances were passed that required hardwood flooring of 3/4" thickness to keep wood usage up.

Would not surprise me if some of these contractors shipped out of spec products with the belief that they would be surplussed out in the near future and none would be the wiser.

There are fakers who also reproduce the packaging... Bill Ricca was the pro at spotting them, often listed what was wrong.

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Originally Posted by bob seijas

There are fakers who also reproduce the packaging

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That was my point Bob, the whole thing.

This stock was from a very reputable seller, at least in my experience and in the recommendation of other reliable people on this forum. They were gracious enough to exchange the first one and cover shipping...and the second one as long I paid shipping, and refund the third with a 15% restock fee and I paid shipping. I overpaid by several hundred dollars compared to the stained NOS keystone scants on Numrich, which is why I kept trying to work with them - that and I was supposed to get a very very very minty stock and matching handguard. I could tell the wood had "aged" in storage, and they disclosed they had sourced them from US surplus stores. They refused to accept my suggestion of end of war factory seconds dumped in the warehouse, and insisted they had sold many before me and I was the first to have problems. I took pictures that couldn't be disputed.
I suppose we shouldn't rule out that they could have been swindled too. I posted pics in my last 1903a4, which alas were lost in the great blackout of 2021. But, I suppose I already disclosed in that thread that the vender was Northridge.
They did right trying to work with me over the course of a month - so I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from doing business with them. If the stocks were milled properly, it would have been worth the price. I think it's highly likely that a factory dumped all it's "finished" stores on the gov. to meet final quota at war's end.

To meet final quotas or fill the final order they requested they be allowed to complete? If the gov wanted to stop procurement could a manufacturer be reasonably assured that that component wouldn't go into service for use for a long time if ever? Its only supposition unless I can find something written.

Also, we have record of 30,000 scrap Rock-Ola M1 Carbine stocks being reworked by Overton.
Wish there was a way to get some additional insight into this. When a stock was truly condemned how would they have been dispositioned?

Also some additional comments from the book about Overtons heavy patching, light patching, as well as equalizing color by hand with stain.

I'm not making any claims that this was done with the Garand or M1903A3, but its interesting that it was done.

The person who wrote the book was so keenly interested in the Overton saga that he even has write-ups on many of the employees during the war years.

Is there a book that delves into the history of the Springfield Armory like that? Where more information might be gleaned?Attachment 123670Attachment 123669Attachment 123671Attachment 123672

told the government what? (second pic). We must know how it all ended! :rofl:

I notice the "quiet" regarding replies.

Old advice was to soak the stock to be restored, in tide powder detergent, in the bathub for as long as it takes to lift dents, scratches and old oils.

Never stain, ever. I advise against oil, alchohol, shoe polish, leather dye or anything at all............SA never did it. Don't do it on new reproduction stocks either.

Be patient, after the soak and dry, and let the natural oils in the stock color rise up and color the stock over time...when dry apply BLO or Tung mixed 50-50 with turpentine or mineral spirits, is all you need to do.

Never sand if possible.

I have done over 25 US military stocks, and all look amazing.

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Originally Posted by Redleg

I notice the "quiet" regarding replies.

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Yes, hard to reason...

Thanks to all for your contributions to this thread.
Very interesting and informative ! Excellent!

just to follow up on development of "natural" color from the oxidation of raw linseed oil as used by springfield. There is a picture in a thread somewhere on this site of the "dunk tank" of raw linseed oil, which was heated. The natural color would have developed much quicker from that process - i.e. a giant vat of linseed oil kept warm for months on end, and agitated regularly by dunking in stocks by the dozens every few hours. Heat + oxygen produces the color. I would not advise leaving a kettle of oil on the stove on a hot burner for months on end though!

Springfield absolutely stained stocks. I get so tired of people saying they never stained. I have handled 10's of thousands of stocks and can tell you they stained them. Also all the Barn wood stocks I have straight out of WWII are stained and oiled. Rick B

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...0/cuqJaS-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...0/4h6dm4-1.jpg

Yes, I once had a picture of the sample stock color used at IHC. If it was lighter than the sample, they stained it.

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Originally Posted by Bob Seijas

If it was lighter than the sample, they stained it.

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Now this makes perfect sense. I never believed staining was abandoned altogether. Why then would so many contractor-made USGI field replacements have been stained? I've seen many of those.
I read in one of my references staining was standard practice during trapdoor production and prior. I can't recall whether the book stated it was Krag or later when when the practice was eased (e.g. not necessarily staining EVERY stock, or only staining very few, etc.). Rick/Bob, your point connects the dots on this. Would love to see the picture. I'd love to find that picture of the Springfield dunk-tank too. I remember the tank was level with the floor, and guys were lowering a jig from above that had many stocks on it down into the vat.

There was a "logwood" stain used on early Model 1903 rifles