No4 T up for auction

Holts auction house here in the UK have just posted their March catalogue and it includes a No4T . T
The description is very "wooly" and the pretty pictures that are obviously enhanced show what appears to be a brand new item surrounded by a group of new / repro items.
They have it estimated at between £5000 & £7000 but whatever it sells for there is 30% commission & VAT on top.
To my rather untrained eye it looks like a fake especially as they only show the "pretty" pictures and none of the close up ones that you would like to see. I would like to hear other comments as I think that someone might be about to catch a very nasty cold... but then I could be wrong.

It might well be real, from what is visible on the wrist and the scope number on the butt looks like it could be OK.
Can't see from the photo if there is a S51 on the underside of butt though.....
And can't see if that wrist scope number matches the scope as they have not done a photo of the scope :rolleyes:
That chest looks too good though, but could be OK if this has been owned by someone for 40+ years perhaps?
The shiny finish might put some off even if its a real one......which might tie in with being in very long term ownership, as one of our old 80+ year old members thought covering a milsurp stock in layers of boat varnish was the thing to do!
You'd want to look at it in person for sure though.....

To be more certain I'd want to see it in the flesh or at least to get additional specific photographic views. However, the rear sight is Faz., as is the triangular swivel in the front trigger guard screw hole. These could be legitimate replacements on a genuine rifle. The wood has indeed had a thick treacley coat of coffin varnish & looks truly awful. I cannot see any signs of a 'S51' although sanding or replacement could explain this. On the face of it the scope is matching, but considering how sanded & varnished the woodwork is the serial stamped into the butt is very sharp. The views are limited but I can't see any signs of a lightening hole in the bolt handle (I would have hoped to see it in the final picture) - & if this is the case the bolt body is a replacement. There is a rifle serial stamped into the scope bracket, but it is impossible to make out what it is.......although on blowing it up as much as I could, it didn't look much like the same digits as in the rifle serial number. The label in the scope tin, which may itself be just as easily original or repro., is far too white & new looking to be genuine. The body of the rifle bears the S the TR & the D6E Enfield examiner's marks where one would expect to find them. Unfortunately there are no clear views that show the area of the body pads & whether the flat has been properly machined for the front pad to sit on.

And it may be my eyes but it looks like a Bren chest with it to me. It looks too chunky for a purpose made Chest SA No15 - though there is nothing wrong with a Bren chest if it was appropriately modified. I would think a 1944 rifle with a Mk3 scope would have been issued with a dedicated No15 chest, though, which would mean the chest has probably been matched to the rifle after the event. Plus the rifle serial on the khaki slip looks like it was done last week.....

There are a few observations. I would still not want to come down decisively one way or the other without more info., but if anyone is considering bidding on it then I would definitely advise asking for additional photo's showing the markings clearly, the body pad areas as mentioned above, & clear shots of the scope & bracket, including the markings. Gut feeling is that it is quite probably an original rifle that has been refinished, had replacement parts fitted, probably the scope matched to it, & had all the little bits of impedimenta added to it relatively recently. Would still want those extra pics though.

Sold today - Hammer price GBP 10,000 (plus 30% auction fees) :yikes:

If they can get that for a 4T, thinking maybe I should enter my L42A1 in their next sale!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by desperatedan

Sold today - Hammer price GBP 10,000 (plus 30% auction fees) :yikes:


If they can get that for a 4T, thinking maybe I should enter my L42A1 in their next sale!

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Was that Holts ?
Was it all matching with a full CES ?
Have you got a link so I can print it out for reference.

I have just renewed my house contents insurance with the 4T at £4500 and the L42 at £10,000.
Looks like I may need to revise those figures.

Edit to add : found it in the Holts catalogue Lot 1111

Alan,
Lots of considerations there, having been through that pain barrier of insurance.
I let the 4T go, in its chest full CES some years ago for £4500 and that was cheap at the time with provenance.
I sold my L42 in its chest and FULL CES for £9500 recently with provenance as it was used in the Falklands by a 2 SCOTS sniper and the rifle behind the book FALKLANDS WAR: SNIPERS DOWN SOUTH a book I wrote for two charities with Frank Fletcher.
It is as Roger says............in each case the buyer held the rifle and examined all components carefully. It is essential, especially in these UNIQUE rifles which is what they are.
IMHO I find the buyers and sellers fees extortionate.
It would be far eaiser to sell it on here and give Doug 10% of the sale for this website............but thats my view, and many experts on here would assist and steer you to a good buy, that will only go up in value.
Insurers are pretty hard to deal with as noone really knows what you have in your custody, they just give a base figure as long as their risk is minimal!!

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Originally Posted by Gil Boyd

Insurers are pretty hard to deal with as noone really knows what you have in your custody, they just give a base figure as long as their risk is minimal!!

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I have to detail make model and value of 'high' value items and if it ever comes to claiming provide support for my valuation. Obviously details of the Holts sale at £10k will be supporting evidence for the 4T.

Neither my RAF issue 4T or L42 (or any others) are for sale at the moment.


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../IMG8761-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../No4T001-1.jpg

Looking at the plethora of photographs added since first listed, I see that the bolt has "RFI 72" stamped under the handle and one of the scope mount knurled knob looks very unused. Even the auctioneer mentions that the scope bracket is a possible later replacement. Hard to see in the only close up photo but might it be one of DRPs excellent brackets?

Well spotted DD! It is one of mine....................the bracket, I mean. The photo of the bolt body also confirms my suspicions of earlier about it being a replacement.

I hope the buyer is pleased with what he got.........I recently sold an original mis-matched 4T for 4k. I clearly robbed myself.

I looked at the photos and immediately noted all the pitting (and "soft" markings) under the paint.

As DRP says, I'd say I should export my accumulation of "junque" to the UK, because I could retire...

Roger,
It is I suppose what you can get for an honest 4T or L42 or indeed any others in the series with all the CES. The value depreciates without each part of the CES kit but the rifles on their own stand firm at about £4K.
I saw a brush and Charlie G bottle go last week for £250 alone!! Oh how I wish I could turn the clock back, and the loads I had pass through my hands in the believe that "these are cheap little plastic bottles and brushes for the lens!!" :lol:

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

I have to detail make model and value of 'high' value items and if it ever comes to claiming provide support for my valuation. Obviously details of the Holts sale at £10k will be supporting evidence for the 4T.

Neither my RAF issue 4T or L42 (or any others) are for sale at the moment.


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../IMG8761-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../No4T001-1.jpg

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You're way too low on the 4T value.

RAF issue puts it in the rarer category.....and a 'normal' one with matching scope, all original and with full CES are being sold by the two most well known RFD purveyors of 4T's and L42's etc have been in the £6500-8000 range for 4 or 5 years now, and its a 'retail' value (or auction value) that you would use for insurance purposes.

I have to say, the ever increasing value of them is making me think twice about keeping mine.

Oh well I guess our respective safe valuations just appreciate!

As all/most items in the CES were with this rifle and looking at it again, I was wondering how usual it was for items such as the Scout Reg scope and the rifle canvas case to be marked with the rifle serial? Case maybe but I've not come across any Scout Reg spotting scopes with a rifle serial marked/stamped into the leather like this one was. Has anyone else?

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Originally Posted by desperatedan

As all/most items in the CES were with this rifle and looking at it again, I was wondering how usual it was for items such as the Scout Reg scope and the rifle canvas case to be marked with the rifle serial? Case maybe but I've not come across any Scout Reg spotting scopes with a rifle serial marked/stamped into the leather like this one was. Has anyone else?

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Mine isn't, and not seen any other one either. I think there was a certain amount of 'enhancing a story' with the items in this CES.
Looks like it worked though given the price....