Three Lee Enfield Carbines

I really lucked into a bunch of early Lee Enfield rifles, among them were three Carbines. Since they are all different from each other and I'm not fully sure I got the story correct on all of them, I'd kindly appreciate feedback on what I missed/got wrong/should know on these pieces.


For the starting post I'll start with the first of the three:


1899 dating Enfield made Lee Enfield Carbine I. It is all matching numbers and even the stock cartouches are still visible. The brass disc in the butt keeps me a bit scratching my head since I originally thought the 3*96 might be for March 1896, but that would not fit to the 1899 receiver ring. I noticed the sales stamp in the butt stock too. If you look close btw you can still make out the Enfield roundel, under it I. and then again under it 1. By who was this rifle being used?





https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....19&cid=1&stc=1
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https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....22&cid=1&stc=1
https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....23&cid=1&stc=1
https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....24&cid=1&stc=1

Second rifle, this one is similar (identical?) to another Lee Enfield Carbine that I have already owned. It is NZ marked and has a mismatching bolt. The stock disc is made of steel (?), Drill Purpose stamped on top of the receiver. Interestingly this one though has two receiver ring inscriptions. Top one for Enfield 1894 I. where the I. is lined out, and under it again stamped Enfield, this time 1903 and LEC over II* (I hope I'm reading it correctly as II), so reworked from a LEC I to LEC II*? Additional question, does the 13 on the barrel shank indicate rebarreled in 1913? The "KHZ Hall 303 Brit." on the receiver is a German importer marking, as is the 671 on the barrel shank (proof date June 1971).


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https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....30&cid=1&stc=1

Third, a Royal Irish Constabulary Carbine, as already indicated by the unit disc inscription. Does the "3 '05" indicate it was put into service in March 1905? Unfortunately the stock of this one once was cleaned, fortunately the stock cartouche is though still visible. For what I can tell it is all matching numbers too. The receiver ring being Enfield 1901 over I* (?) and LEC stamped doesn't really fit to the stock stamps, which are from 1903.


https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....31&cid=1&stc=1
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For what it is worth, I posted pictures of the LEC that I have already owned back in 2020 here: https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=71720
Just noticed the pictures were lost and I re-added them. It was interesting myself to compare them. Seems this one is identical to #2 of the Carbines in here, but though only one receiver marking and not two - what makes even less sense, considering the one from the linked thread has a lower serial (#940) and dates to 1901, whereas #2 from this thread here has 1894 and 1903 receiver markings, but serial being #1825.

Beautiful trio of early carbines. You New Zealand carbine began life and a Magazine Lee Metford Carbine mk I, then converted to Magazine Lee Enfield Carbine. Most likely done when it was made for the New Zealand contract. These carbines for NZ were made from new receivers as well as obsolete patterns. Thanks for posting; those early carbines are truly works of art.

That is interesting, how do you tell this rifle originally was a Lee Metford Carbine? Only based on the receiver ring markings?


Secondly, it seems the Carbine from my first post is a cavalry carbine. At least others that had the same style stock and nosecap were named this way. Did I identify it correctly?

On the second carbine posted, the NZ carbine, the high markings on the left side of the butt-socket indicate the receiver was originally a lee metford carbine. These were marked higher because the sling loop D-ring was directly below it. These were removed in service, leaving these carbines with their markings high up on the socket, and a smooth clear area below. When the NZ carbine contract was formulated, Enfield utilized new and used receivers for this small run. As the carbines were now obsolete, many of these older receivers were utilized to fill the NZ order. I have two MLM carbines; one still has its D-ring intact, the other has been ground off.

I dont have access to my LE books right now, but I believe the correct nomenclature for the NZ carbine was, "Carbine, fitted for Pattern 88 bayonet" or something close to that. Someone on here will correct me if I screwed that up.

Great pictures!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Promo

I really lucked into a bunch of early Lee Enfield rifles, among them were three Carbines. Since they are all different from each other and I'm not fully sure I got the story correct on all of them, I'd kindly appreciate feedback on what I missed/got wrong/should know on these pieces.

For the starting post I'll start with the first of the three:

1899 dating Enfield made Lee Enfield Carbine I. It is all matching numbers and even the stock cartouches are still visible. The brass disc in the butt keeps me a bit scratching my head since I originally thought the 3*96 might be for March 1896, but that would not fit to the 1899 receiver ring. I noticed the sales stamp in the butt stock too. If you look close btw you can still make out the Enfield roundel, under it I. and then again under it 1. By who was this rifle being used?

https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....19&cid=1&stc=1

https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....24&cid=1&stc=1

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The wear looks commensurate with banging around the veldt for a while: 7th Dragoon Guards - Wikipedia

The "71401" is not a service number from the Boer War era, whatever else it may be. Army Service Numbers 1881-1918: 7th (Princess Royal's) Dragoon Guards

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Promo

That is interesting, how do you tell this rifle originally was a Lee Metford Carbine? Only based on the receiver ring markings?


Secondly, it seems the Carbine from my first post is a cavalry carbine. At least others that had the same style stock and nosecap were named this way. Did I identify it correctly?

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Beautiful carbines Promo. Congratulation on acquiring them.

smle addict, Skennerton list the NZ carbine as ''Magazine Lee-Enfield Carbine Fitted for Pattern 18888 Bayonet (N.Z. Model) ... quite a mount full lol
coggansfield (Doug Munroe) who has published a couple of small but very nice books about those carbines mentions that according to LoC #10220 (may 1900) the nomenclature is ''Carbine Magazine, Lee Enfield : fitted to take the pattern 18888 sword bayonet''.
He simply calls them ''LEC 88 (NZ)'' for the title of his first book.

He as made a survey of all the carbines he could locate and if you contact him he will add yours to the list (if it's not already there)
You might even get lucky and find your original bolt serial in there.

Here's what your cypher and D-Ring would have originally looked like on your NZ Carbine.(smle addict was talking about)
Attachment 126433

I don't know Doug Munroe and his book, thanks for pointing it out. Can you tell him of my rifle?


Thanks for the picture of this D ring, now I understand what he was referring to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Promo

I don't know Doug Munroe and his book, thanks for pointing it out. Can you tell him of my rifle?

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Looking at the forum it looks like he hasn't been on here for over a year.... Hopefully nothing bad happened to him.
The small survey he takes for each rifles was something like 12 specifications he needs so it would be best if you contacted him.
His email is listed in his posts so i guess it should be ok if i give it to you here : Dpmunro9@gmail.com
Here's a shot of his book.
Attachment 126541

Btw i looked through the carbines listed in the book survey and i haven't seen yours, promo. So he probably would be happy to add it to the survey.

Hello Promo,

Attached are two pics of my MLM carbines. One has it's D-ring intact, and the other was removed in service.

Promo, it’s Doug Munro here. I hate to bump an old thread but only just stumbled on this.

These are great pics. As Tatou mentioned, I do have a couple of booklets on NZ carbines (PDFs here: Douglas Munro - Academia.edu). I’m also writing a book for Headstamp Publishing on RIC carbines (expected summer 2025). I can answer your questions about carbine issue 9571.

The date 3 '05 is not strictly speaking the issue date. This is the date the carbine was received at the armourer’s office at the RIC depot at Phoenix Park, Dublin. It would have got into the hands of actual police a month or so later. The armourer, Sgt. Archibald J. Crichton, had only one assistant. It took them a while to process these things.

The carbine was originally a 1901-made LEC Mk I*. The butt is not original, being taken from a Lee-Metford carbine. This swap would have been done as part of an overhaul in 1903, conducted at the Birmingham Repair Facility, which shared factory premises with RSAF Sparkbrook. This 1903 overhaul was not the carbine’s conversion. Rather, it was a servicing the carbine got after its withdrawal from service in South Africa. All cavalry carbines were withdrawn, given their crappy performance during the Boer War. Starting in October 1900, they were shipped back to Britain. Carbines in service at home were also withdrawn. The last British mounted unit to retain them was the Household Cavalry, which used them for ceremonial purposes until spring 1904. (This service-wide withdrawal is why there were so many of these things available for conversion to the police model a little while later.) The carbines were sent to the BRF for cleaning and repairs, where many received new butts or were reassembled with incorrect butts. It was at the BRF that they got the dated Birmingham roundels on the butt.

After getting the once-over at the BRF, the carbines went for storage at Weedon for a couple of years before returning to the BRF for conversion for the RIC. The “BR” stamps on the right of the nocksform and the left of the buttsocket were applied at this time. The carbines began to be shipped to Dublin in March 1904, though they did not get into the hands of the first police until May 1904. The last of them were distributed in June 1905 in County Wexford.

Until the Anglo-Irish War (1919-21), the carbines were virtually never fired — which is why most are in such good condition today. The RIC used them until about October 1920. Most were sent back to Enfield for scrapping then. But the ones in Ulster were held back for use by the Ulster Special Constabulary (about 3,000 of them, I estimate), a part-time force that existed until 1970. The USC used them until about February 1922. After that, they seem to have gone into storage in Northern Ireland. They were hauled out again for use by the Ulster Home Guard in WWII. They ended up almost certainly at Weedon again after the war. Weedon’s contents were auctioned off in the early 1960s just prior to its closure, at which point two Americans appear to have bought them all (Bill Edwards and Val Forgett). Just about all the survivors have civilian proof marks dating that sale to 1961.

Promo, if these pics are yours, may I use them in the book? If they are not yours, can you tell me where you got them, please? Thanks v. much — Coggo

P.S. The sling is a homemade after-market addition. No RIC carbine is known to have its original sling (the RIC had a unique sling pattern), but some have Home Guard webbing slings.

Hey Doug, just responded to your PM. But just to have it mentioned in public for all to see too, the pictures in this thread were taken by myself.


Thank you for the excellent information on the RIC carbine, greatly appreciated. Looking forward to see it in your book.


PS: if you enjoy looking at these Enfield Carbines, I have a fourth one that I had posted here -> https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=71720

Thanks for getting back to me, Promo. Your photography skills a great — way higher than mine. I got your PM. I’ll respond via e-mail later today.

I did want briefly to add one thing here, in response to something I missed earlier. The answer to why cavalry carbine s/n 2090A has an issue date (1896) earlier than its manufacture date (1899) may be one of two:

First (the less likely to the two explanations), this issue disc may not original to the carbine. Someone may have installed it in recent years.

Second (and more likely), the explanation due to an anomaly of late 19th and early 20th century issuing protocols. At the time in British and imperial service, substitute firearms inherited the issue number and date of the firearm they were replacing. I don't know why they did it this way, but the fact is that that did. So I suspect that there was an earlier carbine with these exact unit/date/number specs that had to be withdrawn for some reason, and then this newer one was issued in its place.

You see this phenomenon most obviously on the NZ carbines, including the one of yours that is a conversion from a Lee-Metford carbine. To clear up a common misconception, let me first say that the overwhelming majority of NZ carbines are not converted from anything. They were just about all new made in four batches, as follows:

• Batch 1: An initial 1,000 made in 1901. There were made on new receivers just marked “L.E.C” (with no mark number). These suffered from the same lousy sighting as the Boer War cavalry carbines. They were virtually all retrofitted later with new backsight ladders (no serial number and marked “EC/88”). These carbines were issue numbered 1 to 1000. The issue dates are all 1901. There are a handful of these Batch 1 carbines that still have their original sights, which are serial numbered and marked “E/C” (without “88”). These are very rare and are all in New Zealand that I know of.

• Batch 2: Another 500 made in 1902. These too were made on new receivers, though for some reason these were marked “L.E.C I*”. However, these are not conversions from Mk I* LEC, as is commonly supposed. They were brand new, continuing the serial number sequence of the first batch. These came with corrected sights, serial numbered and marked “EC/88”. These carbines were issue numbered 1001 to 1500. The issue dates are all 1903.

• Batch 3: A consignment of 175 barrelled actions made in 1903 or early 1904. These are all marked 1903 on the receiver. In all respects, these are identical to Batch 2. They carry on the serial number sequence from Batch 2. These carbines seem largely to have been used to replace withdrawn Batch 1 carbines, in which instances they were clad in the wood taken from the withdrawn carbines. The got marked with the issue number and date of the withdrawn carbine. The results in carbines with a manufacture date of 1903 and an issue date of 1901. In such cases, usually, though not always, the issue date is rendered in two digits (“01”), whereas on the original carbines it was always four digits (“1901”). The issue number is always under 1500, so we know that it must have been replacing something from one of the first two batches.

• Batch 4: Another consignment of 250 barrelled actions, made a bit later in 1904. These were converted from Lee-Metford carbines, mostly dating back to 1894 (there were a few dated 1895). These are the only converted NZ carbines. They retain their original LMC serial numbers with their Enfield-rifled barrels being made to match the receiver serial number. These conversions were done in 1904, though I assume still early 1904 because the receivers all have a 1903 retro-date on them. These carbines seem mostly to have replaced withdrawn Batch 2 carbines, being clad in the wood taken from these. So on these, what you will often see is the 1903 conversion date on the left of the receiver and a “03” issue date on the right, under the bolt handle—but some have “1901” or “01”. Again, the issue number is always under 1500.

• Last, the Kiwis also bought 2,000 spare barrels over the course of 8 years. These all have serial numbers in the D and E range. Loads of the carbines have had these spare barrels added, including your Metford-converted carbine. Its barrel was installed in 1913. I can’t quite make out its old serial number, but plainly it ended in D.

Hope all this may be of interest — Coggo

That is much more information on my Carbines than I had ever imagined to be getting. Thank you for this. I had tried to give a little bit back by just mailing you pictures of my Carbines. I hope they are of help, highly looking forward to your book.

Yup, got them. Thanks v. much — Coggo