Cartridges

Like a few members here I have always been interested in collecting cartridges & ordnance now that I have an I-phone 11 upgraded from my I-phone 4 I can get better pics.
Thought I would just run through some random rounds probably start with some Nitro Express rounds of various vintages.
I have always chased the N.E's as it was an era of firearms made for hunting dangerous game and game shooting predominantly in Africa but also Asia.

Users like Corbett, Bell, Keith, Taylor, Rauark, Capstick to name just a few of those that had hair raising experiences.
Corbett stands out as a single minded person who hunted Tiger and Leopard man eaters some of his escapades are bordering on insanity to kill the beast.
One leopard nearly had him this cat had over 400+ victims and another was a Tiger whom his 6th sense told him he was in peril.
And in peril he was as he raised his head over the rear thorn bush he had placed for his back protection, he came face to face at a few feet the Tiger man eater just as she sprung at him.

Corbett fired un-aimed a shot which went through her ear, the tiger knocked him A over T with the rifle falling over the edge of the rock he was perched on.
Thankfully the tiger bolted, she almost got him again but his 6th sense saved him this time and he killed her but boy read his stories they are way out on a limb.

Anyway that's why I try to collect them as I associate them with those long ago hunters who really relied on the knock down power of the N.E's to save the day.
TIA

Cartridge ~ Kynoch N.E .500/.465 3 1/4" case 480 grn projectile MKVII 303 for scale.

I've only started to collect cartridges. But here in the Peoples's Republic of California, it can be quite the challenge. It is hard to find people willing to mail you the cartridges even though, as a Type 3 FFL with a COE I am by California law allowed to (still) buy ammunition via mail and person to person.

I picked up a grab bag of ammo in an auction and it came with some oddball stuff. It can be interesting researching some of what you find I will say that.

A good source of info if your going down the line of collecting ammunition is the Cartridges Of The World mine is the 14th Ed but it has just about everything you can think of Black powder, old rimfire, wildcats, N.E's, Western & European calibers and obsolete rounds over 1,500 detailed cartridges.

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

A good source of info if your going down the line of collecting ammunition is the Cartridges Of The World mine is the 14th Ed

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I picked up the 11th Edition someplace a while back. It is a great book.

Back in 1940 L. Kilbourn developed the 224 Kay-Chuk cartridge from the 22 Hornet. he used the S&W Model 17 revolver chambered for the 22 long rifle. The chambers were reamed-out to chamber his 224 cartridge, which had a sharp shoulder that did not cause extraction problems, like Colt single action revolvers with Christy Gun Works 22 Hornet cylinders.

This 224 Kay-Chuk really became popular during the 1950's and considered to be one of the most effective small game cartridges and later on, still was considered superior to the S&W 22 Jet.

The 224 Kay-Chuk fired a 37 gr Sisk bullet at 1903 fps and a 40 gr Sierra at 1650 fps

photo shows the 22 Hornet and 224 Kay-Chuk cartridgesAttachment 127461

I have one of the 224 Kay-Chuk S&W 17 revolvers.

Poor thing has some really bad pitting from poor storage.
Slick, slick, slick revolvers though.

Wouldn’t have expected to read about it on this site!

Here is the Kynoch 600 Nitro express the epitome in its day for sheer knockdown power 8,400 FPE with the 900grn projectile decent elephant medicine.
It was said even if the brain was not hit the round would knock an elephant out for 20 minutes plenty of time for a follow up shot.
This is where a 20 yard shot is a long one for the animal and you had better get it right as an angry beast will grind you to dust.

The rifles were usually doubles made by Jeffries or H & H and we are not talking chicken monies either for the rifles a few hundred thousand $'s for the top of the line.
Usually they had 2 triggers with the back trigger being the first one let go obviously as if it was the front one a double discharge could occur.
In-fact in one of my books such an event happened to the shooter both brls at once and the recoil consequently sat him flat of his butt bet their ears were ringing.

Holland & Holland stopped making the 600 selling the final one for a good price sometime later a chap wanted them to make another to which they said not possible.
So they with the client put their heads together and came up with the .700 nitro express with a 1000 grn projectile @$100/USD per shot.

Pic of .600 N.E with 900 grn FMJ projectile (303 MKVII for scale)

Bit of trivia for you on the 600 Nitro ~
WWI service
In 1914 and early 1915, German snipers were engaging British Army positions with impunity from behind steel plates that were impervious to .303 British ball ammunition. In an attempt to counter this threat, the British War Office purchased sixty-two large-bore sporting rifles from British rifle makers, including four .600 Nitro Express rifles, which were issued to regiments. These large-bore rifles proved very effective against the steel plates used by the Germans. In his book, Sniping in France 1914-18, Major H. Hesketh-Prichard, DSO, MC stated they "pierced them like butter".

Stuart Cloete, sniping officer for the King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry, stated "We used a heavy sporting rifle - a .600 Express. These had been donated to the army by big game hunters and when we hit a plate we stove it right in. But it had to be fired standing or from a kneeling position to take up the recoil. The first man who fired it from the prone position had his collar bone broken.
It was disliked by the troops in the trench as well because of the muzzle blast raising great clouds of dust giving away your position!

I seem to recall the early Enfield P13 that was tested before the war, being issued to be used against the German steel plates. Additional new production cartridges were also supplied in .276 cal.

my photo shows a .276 cartridge second from leftAttachment 127464

cartridges in photo: left to right: 7,65x53 Mauser, Enfield 276, 7,62x54r Russian and 303 British

Except for the 276 Enfield, the other cartridges are shown with their original early bullets.

Here is my Kynoch 3 inch .577 FBSP with 750 Grn projectile I have another with solid a projectile as well but looks basically the same.
The rifles came in single barrel and doubles.

The .577 Nitro Express 3-inch [76 mm] is a conversion of the .577 Black Powder Express 3-inch, it fires a 750-grain projectile at over 2,050 feet per second. This cartridge was to become the most popular of the three and a standard round for African elephant hunters in the early 20th century.

MkVII 303 for scale.

I have a very small disorganized cartridge collection I haven't done anything with in years. It's been in a box since we moved from our old apartment 30 years ago. I should get it out before the show in August I guess so I can see what I have at least. That's completely separate from my military collection which is also small and disorganized. I have a half dozen perhaps rare or uncommon ones but most are the easy stuff to get.

My real quest has just been getting at least one full box of ammo for the firearms I have and that's been hard enough. I still have several I have no ammo for, 8x50R Austrian, 30 Mauser (this should be relatively easy to get, just haven't made the effort yet), 11.7x51R Dutch, 8mm Patrone, 11mm French pistol, 10.75x58R Berdan, 41 Swiss, and 7.5x53 Swiss

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

I have a very small disorganized cartridge collection I haven't done anything with in years.

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Mine too was in an ammo box for some time after being out on display for years. I needed a set of drawers to lay them out in and finally found a small cabinet...now I can see them or show them when I wish. Also when they lie in on top of each other, they can damage each other's finish.

I have owned this small collection for a number of years and have enjoyed collecting these cartridges. I believe the 505 Gibbs is the largest used in a bolt action while double rifles were used for many of these cartridges, single shot rifles for some like the 475 No 2 nitro were used too. There have been custom square bridge Mauser actions available since the 1930's, some imported and produced in the USA

the collection left to right:

303 Norma, 500/450 nitro, 475 No 2 nitro, 470 H&H, 505 Gibbs, 500 Eley and 577 Attachment 127467

Mines pretty eclectic from Western Rifle, Metric, N.E's & Wildcats as well as military rounds fair few 303 rounds, plus a dabbling in the larger military stuff from 20mm rounds right up to a 5" naval case.
So I will just plod along with the N.E's in a hope others catch the bug again and start going through what they have you may be surprised at what you may have squirrelled away.
That's if ppl don't mind a few pics of ammunition I've collected over the years my topographical location and lack of sources/gun shows (We don't have any at all here) makes it a quest to find or get anything.

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

lack of sources/gun shows

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We're heading that way too, don't know how it's going to go. I just stumbled on a 76mm M62A1 APC projee at a local tattoo shop. Owner had no idea what it is but was given by a friend that didn't want it. I've made him an offer but we'll see, I doubt I'll get it. The correct casing was also available locally which made it more attractive...

This is the thing ppl don't know what things are until someone shows an interest in the item, no doubt now the owner is doing research or asking around and you may find the price goes up. I hope you acquire it Jim and the case to go with it pairing items up with the correct match are hard it's not like a supermarket aisle.

I've given up on the 88mm Tiger round 15 years ago I should have brought the one I found but I did not have the $1K asking price I only had $900 for the whole show so would have traveled 300Klm to buy just 1 item now they are asking $4K. I'm still holding hope of getting a 105mm H.E round for my brass Leopard 1 shell case but again they don't grow out the back garden and I'm not getting any younger well none of us are.

I use to go to the cartridge shows in the USA, you could spend all day without a problem and get educated too, not many cartridge only shows but they are
still around. regular gun shows had interesting cartridges too at lower prices, about 3/4's of my British Express cartridges were found in cigar boxes at gun
shows. Years ago I found an original German WW2 7,92x94mm anti tank cartridge complete with tear gas capsule in the bullet nose, too much at $150 US
plus you had to worry about the tear gas. I made a nice dummy out of aluminum, drawings and dimensions are on the internet.

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

I'm still holding hope of getting a 105mm H.E round

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Here's an option that I've considered for future difficult matches... I know it's not what we want but it's getting that way. Amazon.com: Life Size 105mm TNT Dummy Inert Ordnance Projectile NATO Artillery Shell Round Piggy Coin Bank Replica : Toys Games

I picked up a 20mm projectile this morning. They had it marked as AP but not sure that's what it is. It's marked mk8 2-b--3-43 has a hollow core maybe an inch deep and appears to have a shiny black plastic cap on it possibly for balistics with a sharp AP tip inside it.

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

I picked up a 20mm projectile this morning.

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Pics?

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../61Z1QMJ-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../RlgeBVh-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../9vhdmpE-1.jpg

Interesting, wonder if it had a base fuze?

Not sure on this one I thought it may have been a .375 BPE coiled but it may be possibly a .350 BPE (MkVII 303 for scale)

From the collection a .500 Nitro Express with 570 gr FMJ/Cupro-Nickle @2,150 ft/s giving 5,850 fpe Kynoch NE load.

MkVII 303 for scale

From the collection ~ .577/500 No 2 BPE paper patched.
You'll notice in the top shot of the projectile there seems to be a copper plug in there possibly to aid expansion of the projectile?
What is the consensus on that theory!

Developed as a black powder round some time before 1879 by necking down the .577 Black Powder Express to .507-inches (12.9 mm) for use in single or double rifles, as well as a variety of Martini-based lever rifles.

MkVII 303 for scale

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

You'll notice in the top shot of the projectile there seems to be a copper plug in there possibly to aid expansion of the projectile?

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That's what it does...

Winchester did produce one of their 50-110 cartridge loadings using a 22 rim fire blank cartridge in the nose of the lead bullet. It was thought that this might explode the bullet but in actual hunting did not really work.

Winchester's Model 1886 lever action rifle chambered the 50-110 plus a few Winchester Hi Wall single shot rifles.

My photo shows all the cartridges factory chambered in the model 1886 Winches carbine and rifle, (45-70 missing) the 50-110 is far right and has the 22 rim fire black cartridge in the bullet noseAttachment 127497

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Originally Posted by RCS

Winchester 22 rim fire blank in lead bullet nose

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How about nose pics of the blanks...?

I will get a nose photos

cartridges in my photo left to right 33 WCF, 38-56, 38-70, 40-70, 40-82, 45-90 & 50-110

I think his is just the brass/bronze filler plug for expansion.

3" .500 Nitro for Black Powder, Bullet Wt 440 gr, Vel 1,900 ft/s , M.E 3,528 ft/lbf. This is the Kynoch nitro load for Black Powder Nitro Express Rifles.
This is quite a nice example of the round plus again the copper plug to aid expansion one would think for light skinned game to stop a full through penetration of the projectile.

MKVII 303 for scale.

A few months back I got an original 1895 Winchester is 35 Winchester calibre, something I have lusted after for several years. Ammunition can be problematic but happened on 6 ten round boxes of Kynoch 250 grain round nose loads in those same colour boxes for sale. They weren't cheap or even boxer primed but be nice to get it roaring again. Excellent moose medicine if ranges aren't too long.

Missed out buying a Winchester 1895 in 405 cal at a local gun shop,Attachment 127518 it was also marked CALCUTTA INDIA too on the barrel. Good friend had a Win 1895 in 30-03 caliber, said it was a Texas Range rifle.

photo shows four civilian factory cartridges for the Winchester 1895

left: 35 WCF, 38-72 WCF, 40-82 WCF and 405 WCF

I need to make a correction on my photo of Model 1895 Winchester cartridges, third cartridge

is 40-72 (not 40-82)

I have seen a few 95's with foreign distributor names on them as well. One I missed in .405, had a matted rib on top of the barrel, shotgun butt. Was marked (something or other) et freres. Looked it up at the time and was Parisian sporting goods distributor similar to Abercrombie and Fitch in the US. Not much collector interest in it cuz it was oddly marked but woulda been a great hunter.

My .500 BPE - 3 1/4" has the copper plug for expansion but what I like on this one is the head stamping of Eley Bros so not quite sure on Eley's history of when they changed the headstamp to just Eley as they went public in 1874 so I'm unsure as to the DOM of this cartridge.
RCS do you have an idea on this one.

The .500 BPE was considered a good cartridge for medium-sized non dangerous game and can still be used for such.

The .500 BPE was never highly regarded for hunting in Africa, yet it was a popular cartridge in India, considered a good general purpose rifle cartridge popular for hunting tigers. Jim Corbett was a user of a .500 BPE rifle prior to switching to a .400 Jeffery Nitro Express double rifle, shooting cordite Nitro for Black loadings this rifle was used to dispatch the first man-eater he shot, the Champawat Tiger.

MKVII 303 for scale

In my photo, the last cartridge is the Eley Nitro 577 with 2 3/4 inch case, lead bullet has the copper plug in the nose.

Next to the 577 Eley on the left is the Eley 500 with 3 inch case. headstamp is ELEY LONDON 500, note the paper patched bullet.Attachment 127538

The Eley London headstamp could be very early ?

.450/400 2 3/8 inch Black Powder Express head stamped ELEY London this cartidge also has the copper plug for expansion in the nose of the projectile.

Again not sure on the age but they figure in Wiki from the 1880's.

The .450/400 2 3/8 inch Black Powder Express was loaded with a bullets from 210 to 270 grains driven by 79 to 84 grains of black powder.

MKVII 303 for scale

.400 PURDEY LIGHT EXPRESS 3 inch BPE.

The headstamp is Kynoch 400 P which stands for the Purdey again unknown year of manufacture.

Introduced by gunmaker James Purdey during the late 1880's. Cartridges were loaded for Purdey by Kynoch and Eley.

Usual MkVII 303 for scale.

I also found this place as a guide for the N.E's so others may use it if they wish, the .400 P cartridge was not listed in my COTW(14th Ed.) and information on the web very limited.
400 2 KYNOCH | Cartridgecollector.net

My .577 Black Powder Express 2 3/4 inch

The .577 BPE originated around 1870 with the 21/2-inch variant.

The 3-inch cartridge has survived to the current day as the .577 Nitro for Black, the same cartridge loaded with mild loadings of modern smokeless powder, carefully balanced through trial to replicate the ballistics of the Black powder version.

The 23/4-inch, 3-inch and 31/4-inch cartridges were later loaded with smokeless cordite to create the .577 Nitro Express, with the 3-inch version becoming the most popular.
These cartridges were used for the heavier species of soft skinned game, including dangerous ones such lions, tigers and wild boar. Its also useful under all but the most adverse condition against thick skinned quarries such as the gaur, cape buffalo and even elephants.

MKVII 303 for scale.

From the collection ~ 404 JEFFERY RIMLESS
This one had I believe has a 400 Grn cupro-nickle soft point you will note there are slits in the projectile of which there are 4 this I think is to weaken the projectile so that it will expand quicker flattening out into a 4 bladed fan shape thus creating a more robust wound channel.

This was a WJ Jeffery development but there are differences of opinion as to exactly what year it was introduced. Some sources state 1909, but there is a gun dating from 1907, so it might have been as early as 1905. It was developed as a rimless alternative to the tried and tested 450/400 Jeffery 3” and proved to be one the most popular rifles in Africa and India.
The .404 Jeffery fired a bullet of .422 in diameter of either 300 gr with a muzzle velocity of 2,600 ft/s and muzzle energy of 4,500 foot-pounds force or 400 gr with a muzzle velocity of 2,150 ft/s and 4,100 foot-pounds force of energy.

Usual MkVII 303 for scale

Both my 333 and 404 Jeffery have the same headstamp: JEFFERY over K C 404 and 333

Also my 404 has the same cupro-nicke but solid bullet and slits along the sides

correction, my 404 Jeffery has a soft point bullet, not solid

The Kynoch 470 Nitro Express with 500 gr copper clad FMJ.

The .470 Nitro Express is a rifle cartridge developed by Joseph Lang in England for dangerous game hunting in Africa and India. This cartridge is used almost exclusively in double rifles. It is in wide use in the Southern and Central-East African region, favoured by hunting guides, primarily while out for hunting Cape buffalo and elephant.

500 gr SP, FMJ Vel - 2,150 ft/s Muzzle FPE - 5,140 ft/lbf.

MKVII 303 for scale.

450 Nitro Kynoch 3 1/4" ?

Well I've looked in a few sites about this one and nothing I have found seems to fit what the head stamp says the neck section is 1" long and case length is @82mm which puts it near 3 1/4".

So any of you out there who collect these may be able to offer a answer not sure if its a wildcat or what but its intriguing!

Its a cupro nickle FMJ around 300 Gn and has a definite ogive step in it plainly visible so this is one may require a bit of searching.

Had a good look around and I seem to believe the parent case to be a 450 Nitro express case 3 1/4" that has been necked down to a .40" making it a 450/400 3 1/4" Nitro as I can see nothing else in the Kynoch 450 N.E that even remotely resembles this round.

MkVII 303 for scale.

I think your "wildcat" 450/400 3 1/4 inch case is a 40-110 Winchester. The Winchester 40-110 can be made from the 450 Nitro
Express. Winchester introduced the 40-110 in the 1880's for their Hi Wall single shot rifle. Finding Winchester 40-110 brass has
to be difficult, even many years ago and 450 Nitro was available

Thanks RCS I'll look into that in COTW and give you feedback on your summation which is appreciated.:thup:

It has paid to do it this way round by round as this has uncovered a round that belongs in another pile I have (Western Rifle) plus viewing a single gives ppl a concept of size when say put next to a 303 round.
I lined the N.E's all up once and ppl would not get the idea of size with some of them so I felt this way it would be better served, plus it helps me catalogue them.

See Pic
So here is the result to COTW with the 40-110 in the book and my cartridge does not really match the one in the book the neck alone looks allot longer on mine Ill have to dig my calipers out and do some accurate measurements against a 450/400 3 1/4" so will come back on this one.

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Your 450/400 case is longer then the 40-110 Winchester, from what I read, the 450/400 case was used to
forum the 40-110 Winchester. Both rim and base diameters the same, it is the total length in question.

Nowdays the 50 cal basic case is available to forum these cartridges

I agree its not a 40-110 and am leaning towards the 450/400 (From the parent 450 case pictured) its the length of the neck but when I checked on line there is a 450/400 that looks like this one.
I have a friend who is into cartridges in a big way will take it to him and get the low down

---------- Post added at 12:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:38 AM ----------

I agree its not a 40-110 and am leaning towards the 450/400 (From the parent 450 case pictured) its the length of the neck but when I checked on line there is a 450/400 that looks like this one.
In the link 2nd from the left looks like the deal.

450/400 3 ¼ NITRO EXPRESS | Cartridgecollector.net

I consulted my friend at the range on Sunday 02/08/2022 who has a Jeffrey 450/400 Double Nitro Express rifle, he confirmed it is a 450/400 just a 450 nitro case necked down to a 450/400.

Photos show my Winchester 50-110 with a 22 rim fire black set into the nose of the bullet, I understand under actual conditions this seldom worked. Next to the 50-110 is a inside primed US Govt 45-70 cartridge for scale. On the 45-70 headstamp the R is for rifle, 81 is date 1881 and F for arsenalAttachment 127631Attachment 127632Attachment 127633Attachment 127634Attachment 127635

Photo shows an interesting headstamp, note caliber not shown on WR No1 EXPRESS the other is 40-90 Sharps without a headstamp

The WR No 1 is 500/400Attachment 127637Attachment 127638

This is my .33 Kynoch Nitro for BSA

The cartridge came in 3 loadings .26, .33 & .40 calibre, any of these cartridges are on the rare side and not easy to come by the 40 cal one even more so.

It was introduced in 1921 and was discontinued a few years later as it was ballistically a vey poor cartridge as the projectile shed velocity fast.
They are not a common one to find due to the short production time span I did years ago luck onto a full unopened 10 packet of them one of the jewels in my collection.

MkVII 303 for scale

Here is a nice group of British cartridgesAttachment 127681

Here is my .461 No 1 Gibbs

The .461 No 1 Gibbs, also known as the .461 No 1 Gibbs 2+11/3 inch, in express form it fired a 360 gr projectile driven by 90 gr of black powder, in its heavier loading it fired a 540 gr projectile driven by 75 gr of powder.

MkVII 303 for scale.

Your No 1 Gibbs .461 cartridge is not common to find and a nice addition to
your collection. Many years ago, the late John Amber who published the "Gun
Digest" and other books like Cartridges of the World, found a Gibbs-Farquharson
rifle in 461 cal that was sent to Japan in the 1800's. This was a match rifle with all
the reloading accessories.

My .375 2-1/2" Nitro Express.

Based on a flanged (British for rimmed), straight taper case. It was used in a Lee bolt action BSA magazine rifle and various single shot and double barreled rifles.

Introduced in 1899, it became moderately popular in the UK and with hunters in British colonies.
It was overshadowed in 1905 by the introduction of the .375 Holland & Holland Belted and Flanged Magnums.

The .375 2-1/2" NE case is 2.50" long. The rim diameter is .523" and the head diameter is .456", tapering to a .397" neck diameter. The cartridge overall length is 3.10" and the bullet size is .375". Berdan .217" primers were used.

The original factory load offered a 270 grain RN soft point bullet (SD .274) at a muzzle velocity (MV) of 2000 fps and muzzle energy (ME) of 2400 ft. lbs

MkVII 303 for scale.

So I finally found out what the bullet is called with the slits in the side;

Although the Tweedie bullet had the new metal jacket, this covering had slits in the side and a shortened tip exposing the lead core. The result of this arrangement was that, upon striking flesh, the metal jacket mushroomed, or opened up like a flower, increasing the bullet's diameter and resulting in a wide wound channel and a gaping hole if it passed through. Should the bullet be retained in the body, its victim suffered the full effect of its kinetic energy.

As we surmised it was to aid in the expansion and creation of a big wound channel along with shedding its kinetic energy into the target fast.

My 400/350 Kynoch with FMJRN

Introduced in 1899, the .400/350 Nitro Express is a rimmed cartridge originally designed for use in single-shot and double rifles. In 1899 Rigby approached the engineers at Mauser to make a special Gewehr 98 bolt action to handle this cartridge, its introduction in 1900 was the birth of the magnum length bolt action, paving the way for such cartridges as the .375 H&H and .416 Rigby.[3]

The .400/350 Nitro Express fires a .358" diameter 310 grain projectile at either 2000 fps or 2150 fps, depending on the source.

MkVII 303 for scale.

My .318 Kynoch nitro express for the .318 Westley Richards.

Westley Richards introduced the .318, primarily for use in their M98 Mauser and later their P14 Enfield based bolt action sporting rifles.

The .318 Westley Richards is a rimless bottlenecked cartridge primarily intended for use in Africa. The bullet diameter is actually .330", the naming is due to British nomenclature which sometimes names cartridges by their land diameter rather than the more commonly applied groove diameter.

Westley Richards offered solid, soft-point or the revolutionary LT-capped[note 1] bullets in two loadings, the more common being a 250 gr bullet with a listed speed of 2,400 ft/s, whilst a lighter loading firing a 180 gr bullet at 2,700 ft/s was also offered for lighter game. The 250gr bullet possessed high sectional density and thus excellent penetration.

In my book I have on "African Rifles and Cartridges", by John "Pondoro" Taylor wrote that the 250gr .318 Westley Richards is "fully capable of driving its bullet the full length of a big elephant's body.

MkVII 303 for scale.

My photos show a few of the smaller caliber Sharps cartridges which were also very popular for match shooting. I have read that Sharps used a very high quality paper equal to banknote paper for patching their factory bullets.

Left to right the 40-90 Sharps necked (also a 40 straight too) from around 1876, The only modern case is the RCBS 45 Basic case used to make the 45-120 or 45-140, 45-100 Sharps also from around 1876, used different bullet weight and powder charges. The 45-75 Sharps is a copy of the 45-70 Govt. last is the 40-70 Sharps that was and still is a popular match cartridge.

There wasn't any purpose to showing the headstamps as all the Sharps cartridges are without headstamps, only the RCBS 45 Basic is headstamped.

Years ago I made a nose pour .451 cal paper patch mould that was adjustable for bullet length. At the ranges that I fired on, there wasn't much difference between paper patc and plain lead bullets (all were black powder loads)Attachment 127740Attachment 127741Attachment 127742

Nice selection there RCS.

Here are some rounds of interest the first round is an interim paper cartridge for the Snider rifle in .577 this had a special bullet (Info below) as hollow points were not allowed.
The others are 577/450's for use in the Martini Henry rifle on there are 2 rolled cases and 1 drawn case.

The first rolled one is a Kynoch they had a viewing window so it could be checked that the outer roll covered the inner roll only Kynoch rounds had this feature.
(Can see the window about 15mm above the cartridge base.)

Pic #2 shows the Snider round and how they got around the hollow point bullet read the info below apparently it was a very effective stopper.
Pic #3 shows a good condition Snider cartridge


The 1860s also marked the commencement of the European arms race which was largely initiated by the Prussians, who had introduced their Dreyse breech-loading rifle. Pressed for time in the race to adopt a serviceable breech-loader, the British converted their muzzleloading Enfields into what became known as the Snider rifle. The .577 of an inch calibre remained, but the lead bullet was incorporated into a self-contained brass cartridge. Keen to increase velocity and accuracy, the British set about lightening and balancing this bullet. This was partly achieved by punching a cavity in the nose and spinning the lead over to seal it.

This new bullet had a velocity of 1 250 feet per second (380.8 m/s) and muzzle energy of 1 666 foot pounds. Its effects upon striking flesh and bone were dramatic. Its soft lead flattened, facilitating retention in the body with a deadly transfer of kinetic energy. The chamber in its nose was thus also compressed, causing the trapped air to burst out with explosive force creating a devastating wound which immediately killed or incapacitated its victim.

MkVII 303 for scale

My Kynoch .375 Magnum cartridge a very versatile round, this is a nice example of that early production cartridge.
Whilst technically its not a Nitro Express cartridge I've included it as it has shot and killed all the big game there is on all continents in the world.


.375 Holland & Holland, rimmless, created by Kynoch of London, England made between 1926 and 1930s using (then) new Kynoch Brass cases with "KYNOCH 375 MAGNUM " Head-Stamp and loaded with a CCSFMJ (Copper Coated Steel, Full Metal Jacket) projectile.

MkVII 303 for scale

I have fired rifles in 375 H&H over the years starting with a pre war Winchester M70 rifle and reloading and shooting my friends Ruger No 1 rifle.

But back in 1955, David Lloyd (riflemaker) in Scotland designed the 244 H&H magnum as a long range hunting rifle. He necked down the 375 H&H case to make the 244 H&H magnum cartridge which fired a 100gr bullet at 3500 fps handloading could improve the performance but the 100 gr loading has been around for a long time. Mr Lloyd also manufactured his own custom bolt action rifle for the 244 H&H cartridge.

Influenced by the 244 H&H magnum, Roy Weatherby designed his 240 Weatherby magnum, but the Weatherby 240 could never achieve the same velocity with 100 gr bullets as the 244 H&H cartridgeAttachment 127757Attachment 127758

Bit of cartridge history for those interested on the U.S Army and Roy Weatherby;

The .30-378 was originally designed by Roy Weatherby as an anti-personnel/anti-materiel military cartridge for a government contract. The cartridge was created by necking down the .378 Weatherby Magnum to accept a .308 in diameter bullet. The United States Army’s Redstone Arsenal requested a rifle cartridge that could develop 6,000 ft/s (1,800 m/s) for the effects of light bullets against armor. The .30-378 Weatherby Magnum was able to attain over 5,000 ft/s (1,500 m/s). Using a slower burning and denser propellant, the .30-378 Weatherby Magnum surpassed the US Army’s requirement of 6,000 ft/s (1,800 m/s).

Not often seen and fairly rare my .369 Nitro Express, also known as the .369 Purdey Nitro Express loaded by Kynoch, this is a centerfire, rifle cartridge developed by James Purdey & Sons and introduced in 1922.


The .369 Nitro Express is a rimmed cartridge originally designed for use in Purdey's own double rifles. The cartridge offers almost identical ballistic performance to the .375 H&H Flanged Magnum, firing a projectile of the same .375 in (9.5 mm) caliber.

As is common with cartridges for double rifles, due to the need to regulate the two barrels to the same point of aim, the .369 Nitro Express was offered in one loading, firing a 270 gr projectile at 2,525 ft/s.
In his African Rifles and Cartridges, John "Pondoro" Taylor said of the .369 Nitro Express that you "would need to go a very long way to get a better general purpose weapon"

The MkVII 303 round for scale is a MW (Munitions Welshpool) 1944 what I find interesting on this is it is roll crimped and not stab crimped as so many 303 rounds were is anyone familiar with this type of crimping.
If so how/when did they try it or was it ever going to be accepted as I have not seen much in the way of this crimp method on 303 service ammunition in my collection.

TIA

a very interesting thread gentlemen. thanks to all who posted

My Holland & Holland Super 30 Kynoch Flanged (Rimmed)

The .375 Holland & Holland Magnum proved to be so good that it took until 1925 before Holland & Holland decided that they could neck the cartridge case down to .30 caliber and produce another of the greatest hunting cartridges of all time. When it was first introduced in June 1925 Holland & Holland called it “Holland’s Super .30” and it was to become the father of a whole host of .30 caliber magnums in the succeeding decades.

Holland’s Super .30

When Holland & Holland first introduced their “Super .30” they kept it as a proprietary cartridge, so no-one else could make a rifle or ammunition in that caliber without their permission. The ammunition was loaded for Holland & Holland by British ammunition maker Kynoch. The three loadings were for a 150 grain bullet at 3.000fps, a 180 grain at 2.700fps, and a 200 grain at 2,350 fps. This performance roughly equates with the performance of the 30-06, but the flanged version (Rimmed) of the Super .30 provided flawless function in a double rifle and permitted ejectors to be used.

MkVII 303 for scale.

In the mid 1920's, the well known firm of Griffin & Howe of New York introduced their own cartridge, the 350 Griffin & Howe magnum. They necked down the 375 H7H to 35 cal and had Western manufacture the cartridges, sold their own custom rifles in this caliber for years.

By 1960, the US Army was looking and testing cartridges for long range sniper development and started using a modified Ackley wildcat which was called the 30 AMU. They did not use the 300 Weatherby but their 30 AMU wildcat with special headstamps by Winchester W C C 60 and Remington modified.Attachment 127787Attachment 127788Attachment 127789Attachment 127790Attachment 127791

You have some nice ones there RCS pity the water separates us we could have some good conversations on cartridges I have some pretty cool wildcats that I'll start on after the N.E's as for some ppl it may be the first time they have seen a particular round.
I have one called the "Western Hunter" it was a privately made round submitted to the Police ballistics branch for testing before they would ok it to be legal, as far as I know it is not commercially available Graeme Williams designed it for his top end buffalo hunting business.

I have yet to get a reply from anyone on the roll crimp on the 1944 MW MkVII 303 round I posted in #67.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

I have yet to get a reply from anyone on the roll crimp on the 1944 MW MkVII 303 round I posted in #67.

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Well I for one have never seen one like that. But...I don't have many. I've had lots but still never seen one.

Thx for the reply Jim.

Here we have my Rigby .350 Magnum Nitro.

The .350 Rigby Magnum was introduced in 1908 as the successor to the popular 400/350 Nitro Express. Rigby developed this rimless caliber for use in the Mauser magnum length action. No other maker, at that time, offered this combination in a magnum-length bolt action rifle and Rigby’s name became synonymous for the best in Mauser-actioned big game rifles.

The .350 can propel a .358 dia., 225 grain bullet at 2,625 fps with 3,440 ft.-lbs. of energy. Big game hunters began using this caliber on elephant, rhino and buffalo, although it was never advertised or recommended for such heavy game. Rigby’s .350 Magnum became the most widely used medium bore caliber throughout Africa and is still used today on Safari.

MkVII 303 for scale

“RWS 9.3x82 NIMROD” is c1910-1922 and is probably the commonest headstamp encountered on the 9.3x82R Nimrod.
I looked on the web but its a hard one to find the 9.3 x 74 R is there along with shorter variants of the Nimrod but of the 82mm one very little.
From the little I found its around the same as a 375 H&H but not quite as powerful you do not see to many of them.

MkVII 303 for scale

Interesting 303, that.

Your 9,3x82mm is quite rare, few around.

the 303 cartridge with special crimp is also not common, maybe a special bullet ?

Here are a few metrics, have post these before

left: 8x72R RWS, 9,3x72N Swiss headstamp M+FA, Brenneke 8x65 RS, Norma 9,3x74R and last is 11.2x72 Schuler. I read omewhere that the 11.2 with the rebated rimless case was first used in the early Mauser riflesAttachment 127973

They say the Schuler is on par with the 458 Win Mag.

This is a reasonably old cartridge probably around WWI vintage 1914 +- !
The lube is gone from the projectile but all in all its not in bad shape being full lead.

The 11.15 X 65R STAHL EXPRESS was slightly less popular than the LK variation of the case length which is evidenced by its production lifespan from about 1885 until WW1.

No 1 manufactured by B Stahl indicating a St type case
No 2 manufactured by B Stahl indicating a St type case with black primer annulus
No 3 manufactured by B Stahl indicating town of manufacture with large font
No 3 manufactured by B Stahl indicating town of manufacture with large font with black primer annulus (My cartridge is of this type)

The 303 cartridge is a little unusual due to the type of crimp which is like a roll crimp instead of stab type as is typical of the service round, does anyone have a clue if they trialled different crimping styles it would be nice to know as there is bound to be some here that may have the knowledge.
I know on 303 WRA (Winchester Repeating Arms. Pic #3) primers had 4 tabs formed over the primer to stop them backing out in MG's in aircraft, well that's the story I got from a cartridge collector friend but anyway does anyone here interested in why they trialed this.
I'll look through my other 303's and see if I can find another like it and as far as I can tell it is a factory loaded round H/S MW 44 VII

My 10.75×68mm RWS, also known as the .423 Mauser, is an obsolete rimless bottleneck centerfire rifle cartridge developed by Mauser and introduced in the early 1920s.

The 10.75×68mm Mauser was introduced by Mauser in the early 1920s and chambered in their pre-World War II magnum sporting rifles.

The 10.75×68mm Mauser was a popular big game cartridge with African and Indian hunters, it was used successfully on all dangerous game species up to and including elephant, although many experienced hunters considered it unsuitable for the latter.

303 SMK reload for scale.

I do not think the Mauser Express cartridges were ever as popular as the British Express cartridges were for hunting big game. Also more difficult to locate for the collector too.
The large Mauser square bridge bolt action rifles were imported to the USA late 1920's into the 30's but expensive. The surplus Model 1917 Enfields or Model 30 Remingtons were used for large caliber custom rifles.

Small bore cartridges outside of the USA:

The 222 rimmed from Australia appeared in the 1960's, perfect for the Martini Cadet actions.
although I once rebarreled a Martini Cadet to 218 Bee which worked out. The 222R will fire a 45gr bullet at 3450 fps.

5.6x61 Vom Hofe also rimmed, introduced in Germany 1937 and re-introduced in 1962 will fire a 77 gr bullet at 3700 fps.

244 H&H uses the 375 H&H necked down introduced in 1955 in custom bolt action rifles in Scotland. will fire a 100 gr bullet at 3500 fps

5,6x57 RWS first appeared around 1964 with a 50 gr bullet at 3900 fps. Also difficult to locate cartridges in the USAAttachment 127997

Nice selection there RCS thanks for sharing, I'm enjoying this thread.

My 9.3mm x 62mm NORMA Re Circa 1905 - Present day.

The 9.3×62mm was designed to fit into the Mauser 98 bolt-action rifle, European hunters and settlers in Africa often chose military rifles for their reliability and low cost, but colonial governments in Africa fearful of rebellions often banned military-caliber rifles and ammunition, it however was never a military calibre.
The 9.3×62mm is considered ideal for hunting the larger and tougher African game species, such as lions, leopards, gemsboks, elands, and wildebeests.

Most hunters consider it a viable all-around cartridge comparable to .338 Winchester Magnum, 9.3×64mm Brenneke, and .375 H&H Magnum.
The 9.3×62mm has taken cleanly every dangerous game species in Africa.
Though it is of smaller bore than the legal minimum .375 calibre for dangerous game in most countries, many countries specifically make an exception for the 9.3×62mm.
The 9.3×62mm is considered adequate for European and North American game animals that may become dangerous, such as feral hogs and bears.

MkVII 303 for scale.

This is my 9.3 X 53 SWISS MOD.25 introduced shortly after in 1926.
Used in single shot rifles for target and hunting.

H/S ~ M+FA = Government Factory, Altdorf, Switzerland

303 MkVII for scale.

Any more information about the target shooting with that 9,3x53 cartridge?

Your 9,3x53mm Swiss is not at all common outside of Switzerland somewhat like the Remington 35 cal cartridge. I would guess modern bolt action or single shot rifle.


My photos show an early 7,5 Swiss military cartridge GP 90/03) and details on the early bullet
was assembled. The cartridge has a 211 gr lead bullet which is hollow based and heeled with a steel capped nose on the bullet than is paper patched. The cartridge on the leftAttachment 128022Attachment 128023 is later jacketed bullet

There was scant info on it I'll do some more research Daan and see what's there.

From Nathan Foster (Terminal Ballistics) he is a N.Z author and a great guy who we shot with when in N.Z.

In 1905 when Otto Bock released the 9.3x62 chambered in the inexpensive Mauser 98 rifle, a practical economical sporting cartridge was made available to colonists. As the 9.3x62 gained popularity, ammunition became available throughout the African continent. The 9.3x62 fired a wide but long for caliber 286 grain soft point projectile at a respectably high velocity of 2350fps. The 9.3x62 became an all round work horse for the common man, a meat hunting cartridge which could tackle both small and large animals.

1905 also saw the introduction of the 9.3x74 Rimmed cartridge. This German cartridge gave identical velocities to the 9.3x62 but was designed for more affluent sporting hunters, chambered in high class single or double-barreled break open rifles and drillings. The 9.3x74 gained a small following, mostly in Europe.
For the African colonist, the 9.3x62 remained a standard hunting cartridge for several decades. Two major factors influenced this cartridges decline in popularity, the first involved Allied bombing raids which destroyed German munitions factories during the Second World War causing ammunition supply shortages for a long time thereafter. Along with this, the 9.3x62 had to compete with new cartridge designs. For a time, it seemed that the 9.3x62 would pass into obscurity but the demand for rifles and ammunition continued, based on both practical and nostalgic appeal.


In Europe the 9.3x62 maintained a following which remains steady to this day. European rifles of every major brand have at one time or another been chambered for the 9.3x62 while ammunition is produced by Norma, Sako, RWS and Prvi.
More recently there has been renewed interest in the 9.3x62. Whether for nostalgic or practical purposes, the 9.3x62 has gained new popularity worldwide. For many, the inexpensive Tikka rifle chambered in 9.3x62 has as an example, allowed hunters to experience medium bore performance.

My 7x61mm Sharpe & Hart Magnum belted cartridge (7mm S&H Super).
This was developed by Philip B. Sharpe and Richard (Dick) Hart in the 1950s and based on the .300 H&H Magnum case. In 1953 Sharpe travelled to Scandinavia and the outcome of this trip was that Schultz & Larsen of Denmark chambered the cartridge in their bolt-action rifles. One example is the model 54J, which featured rear locking lugs and a fully enclosed bolt face. while Norma started to manufacture commercial ammunition according to the designers specifications. But today the cartridge requires hand-loading. However hand-loaders have a variety of bullets to choose from, and Hornady lists load data for the cartridge. Brass is still available, or can be fire-formed from 7mm Remington Magnum cases.

While the 7x61 S&H Magnum is a good cartridge, it was overshadowed in the United States by the pre-existing 7 mm Weatherby Magnum.
Never a popular cartridge in the U.S., when the 7 mm Remington Magnum cartridge was introduced it spelled the demise of the 7x61 S&H.

303 SMK reload for scale.

While the 7x61 S&H was an excellent cartridge but only available in an expensive imported rifle there were so many wildcats around with inexpensive actions also available. All kinds of 7mm/30-06 and 7mm/308 including the 285 wildcat variations. Also a 240 Page made famous by Field & Stream gun editor Warren Page.

Attachment 128065

I thought that this should be added to the 7mm cartridge group of wildcats, that became adopted, only this time it was military.

In the early 7,62mm NATO cartridge case designs and before the 7,62x51mm was adopted,
the Belgium FN Factory took the early American 7,62x49 case and necked it down to 7mm. FN used the Mauser S12 bullet at 140 grs with a 2750 fps velocity.

Venezuela purchased 5000 new FN FAL rifles chambered for this 7x49mm cartridge called the 7x49 Liviano in 1954 and used these FAL rifles until 1961.

Also of interest, the 7mm-08 Remington introduced in 1980 which is the 308 Win necked down to 7mm loaded with a 140 gr bullet at 2860 fps

photo shows 7x49mm Liviano cartridgeAttachment 128070

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RCS

Venezuela purchased 5000 new FN FAL rifles chambered for this 7x49mm cartridge called the 7x49 Liviano in 1954 and used these FAL rifles until 1961.

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Apparently there's one of those living around here somewhere. I found one of those cartridges lying forward of our firing point and slightly damaged. I straightened it and have spent considerable time researching to find out what it was. I had concluded it was the early FNs but have yet to find out who has that rifle...

The 7x49mm Liviano cartridges were imported into North American in large amounts after Venezuela
changed over to the 7,62x51 for their FAL rifles in 1961. It was said that it was cheaper than 22 rim fire, main
problem was available rifles to use it. Some collector/shooters had FAL barrels made in the 7,49 Liviano
caliber and used it as it was worth the cost. Some of the FAL's could have made their way into North
American from South America too, even Castro in Cuba had one for awhile.

My DWM 9 x 57mm

The 9×57mm Mauser is a cartridge based on the 7.92×57mm Mauser. It uses the identical 57 mm-long cartridge case, with the same shoulder angle, but necked up to accept a 9 mm-diameter bullet. Ballistically - but not dimensionally - it is indistinguishable from the 9×56mm Mannlicher–Schoenauer. It is currently regarded as a semi-obsolete calibre, although hand-loading keeps it alive.

Performance
Firing a relatively heavy bullet of 220–250 grains at a modest velocity of 2,200–2,300 ft/s, the 9×57mm is low in noise and recoil, pleasant to shoot, and regarded as accurate and effective on all but the very largest, most dangerous game at distances out to 300-350 yd.

The DWM head stamp is one of these but I'm not sure where this particular cartridge was produced or DOM;

DWM B Deutsche Waffen-u. Munitionsfabriken A.-G., Berlin - Borsigwalde, Germany

DWM H ederlandsche Wapen-en Munitiefabriek NV., "DE KRUITHOORN, 's-Hertogenbosch, Netherlands

DWM K Deutsche Waffen u. Munitionsfabriken, Karlsruhe, Germany

DWM L Deutsche Waffen-u. Munitionsfabriken A.-G., (Previously Deutsche Metall-Patronen-Fabrik), Lübeck, Germany

303 MkVII for scale.

I have two 9x57 cartridges, one is early Kynoch with a very heavy bullet and the other is a Norma with a
lighter bullet. When you place the 9x56 MS alongside the 9x57 - they look the same

Early cartridge from around 1900 and still loaded by Norma, used in Norway and surrounding countries Either 232 or 286 gr bullets are factory loaded.

Cartridge next to 303Attachment 128101Attachment 128102

My 5.6×61mm SE, an abbreviated form of its full designation. Case is a Bertram.
The 5.6×61mm [Vom Hofe] Super Express, is a rifle cartridge introduced in Germany in 1937. It is based on the 6.5×55mm Swedish cartridge.

The '5.6×61mm SE' uses a .228-in diameter bullet as also does the .22 Savage Hi-Power, unlike the more common .224-in bullets used for most .22 centrefire cartridges.

5.6×61mm VHSE ammunition is still available (2007) from Walter Gehmann, Karlsruhe, Germany. No mass-produced rifles are currently offered in this chambering, but custom rifle makers will chamber for it; and the calibre has a loyal if specialised following, especially among handloading long-range hunters of roe deer and chamois, although the cartridge has accounted for very much larger deer and antelope.

303 SMK reload for scale.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

My 5.6×61mm SE, an abbreviated form of its full designation. Case is a Bertram.
The 5.6×61mm [Vom Hofe] Super Express, is a rifle cartridge introduced in Germany in 1937. It is based on the 6.5×55mm Swedish cartridge.

The '5.6×61mm SE' uses a .228-in diameter bullet as also does the .22 Savage Hi-Power, unlike the more common .224-in bullets used for most .22 centrefire cartridges.

5.6×61mm VHSE ammunition is still available (2007) from Walter Gehmann, Karlsruhe, Germany. No mass-produced rifles are currently offered in this chambering, but custom rifle makers will chamber for it; and the calibre has a loyal if specialised following, especially among handloading long-range hunters of roe deer and chamois, although the cartridge has accounted for very much larger deer and antelope.

303 SMK reload for scale.

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I have a Newton 22 caliber made from the 7x57mm case which fired a 90 gr bullet at 3100 fps in 1915

---------- Post added at 09:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:00 PM ----------

I have a 22 Newton (part of my Newton family) that fired a 90 gr bullet at 3100 fps in 1915
also a 256 Newton made by necking down the 30-06 case in 1913. Fired a 129 gr bullet at 2780 FPS

My 30 Newton came out around the same time as the 375 H&H about 1913 with the same base diameter only
without the belt. Fired at 150 gr bullet at 3175 fps.

33 Newton few factory rifles but wildcat were made desined in 1915

35 Newton which was the 30 necked up fired a 250 gr bullet at 2800 fps very close to the 375 H&H

400 Newton designed in 1924 to fire a 350 gr bullet at 2800 fps

not able to show photo ?

Here is a photo of the Newton cartridges as detailed in my last posting.

A recent action sold a 33 Newton cartridge with the SPEER headstamp for $100.00US

Wildcat shooters still used the 30 and 35 cal Newton cartridges

Newton also designed the 22 Savage Hi power cartridge for Savage to use in their Model 99Attachment 128157

Nice set of cartridges RCS.

Here is an 8mm Kynoch round of which I cannot really find to much on its not a bottle type like the Lebel but reasonably straight walled and rimmed.
It has a very long projectile reminiscent of the 6.5mm type rounds so I have no idea I did find a picture of a round on the Nitro forum but it did not state what it was.

RCS are you able to identify the round!

MkVII 303 for scale.