1897 Project No. 2

Here we go! Still has matching serial on the extension and original 30" full choke. 739xxx, early 1924 according to https://www.winchesterguns.com/conte...ture-dates.pdf. Forend was very loose and already on it's last notch. A swap of the adjusting sleeve cured that problem.

The last one I just finished was far worse off - bent and dented barrel, broken extension. This one's major defect is that it's just plain filthy. Filthiest firearm I've ever encountered (including the mosin's I've done - one that appeared straight out of the sewer and another still packed in cosmoline).

Lot's of old dried grease/oil mixed with carbon/dirt/dust/sand forming a concrete in every corner, under every spring.
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The consistency of grime changes with likely exposure during storage. Areas around the bolt and front of the carrier are a loose mix of dust and grease, forming almost like a soft packed felt substance. In the rear and along the sides, its rock hard and gritty. Brake cleaner wouldn't touch it. After a soak in wd-40 followed by a brass scraper to chisel out the worst of it, then a brass brush to get the rest of major deposits, I have it all boiling in water to get the remainder - while I prep the receiver for rust bluing.

Note the deep striations in the outside receiver. I saw these in the last 97 project, although they hadn't worn as deep as this one. From my experience there, these are caused by the metallurgy of the receiver. They present a challenge in bluing to get rid of them. I'll capture this in my next post.

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Originally Posted by ssgross

Note the deep striations in the outside receiver. From my experience there, these are caused by the metallurgy of the receiver.

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That's what we thought too, from looking at '94 Winchesters, rifles and carbines from early 1900s.

This one needs/demands new wood. Boyds sells original pattern forends. Their butts are available in XX walnut, but their pics are horrible so no telling what I'd get. The wrist looks a little stubby. However midwayusa has a pick of a Boyd butt that looks perfect, but they out of stock. I'm thinking I want something mid-grade, not over the top but with a just bit of curl. When I'm done practicing on scraps, I think I'll make my checkering debut on this one. Has anyone used one of the Boyds stocks? are they indeed as ugly and misshapen as their single photo lets on? or is the wrist longer like in their version sold on midwayusa?

the Boyds stock on Boyds website...https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...46286f_2-1.jpg
the midwayusa Boyds stock...https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...width680-1.jpg

739xxx would have had its serial number applied in October 1920.

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Originally Posted by Tom Doniphon

739xxx would have had its serial number applied in October 1920.

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Thanks, Tom. Can you provide your source as that is different then what I found, linked above?

Winchester Polishing Room Serialization Records. They show when the serial number was applied to the receiver. They are the most accurate way to date a Winchester. Most all of the other serialization tables are incorrect or have some errors in them.

long overdue. got busy.

So the topic I promised was rust bluing with these "flaws" in the metal that was producing the striations which wear faster than the surrounding metal, and then look like long deep scratches after 100yrs. After lots of trial and error with the last 97, this one went along pretty uneventful.

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as soon as you degrease, these lines flash rust, deep and fast. Don't worry. just don't let it sit - go ahead and wipe on your first iteration.

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I'm using mark lee's express blue no. 1. you can see the striations aren't playing nice. Just ignore them and keep going

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it gets worse in the boil. now, when it comes out and after carding, grab a square of clean paper, and lightly go over the area until the lines disappear. In my initial prep, I usually finish with a piece of worn paper, so I go one step of finer grit this time so there is nothing that stands out. The etching of the rust process will make any variation irrelevant and unnoticeable in the end, so long as you finished at ~320grit or beyond (depending on manufacturer of the paper. no benefit to going finer than needed. 400 seems to be a good number that works across many brands, even the cheap stuff.) You can't see it, but there is just barely enough magnatite over the striated spot to keep it from flash rusting again, so at the next application the striations catch up.

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here we are after the second application, just before boiling.

now where did I save the final pics, with the bolt and everything? ugh.

Good luck on your project, please keep us advised of your progress!!

Always a pleasure watching the many steps it takes to bring these projects to life!

Thank You

here it is.
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There was some prior moderate corrosion top front that made the oval-pw stamp pretty faint when it was all done, even though I tried to be as delicate as possible to that area. It's still there, and stands out if you hit the light at just the right angle.
The barrels (original 30" full choke + NOS norinco 20" riot) still need blued, along with mag tubes, slides, and extensions. I think instead of bluing this weekend I'll be drinking away my sorrows over the wood I got in the mail today (see other thread in this forum).

Looks pretty good from here...

Finally got started on the Boyd's stock after my easter week recess and work trips. Spent an evening inletting the curved metal buttplate. With the widow's peak, screw holes, and toe all perfectly aligned and centered, one side sat mostly flush, the other proud by 20 thous. or so towards the top, then below the woodline at the bottom. The toe overhung the stock by 1/4" but there was plenty of excess border down there to make it work and look even around the checkering. I had to drill out and plug and redrill the holes in the stock. The holes in the buttplate were rough cast, so I had to open up the countersink a bit and clean up the screws to sit in just perfect. Might as well get rid of all the casting pocks too. That was all an evening, and grinding all the excess off the buttplate was another evening. Pat myself on the back and yell at the kids to bring me a beer!
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The fit up is ok. I was happy that there is a very even but barely noticeable gap around the edges of the wrist. Not much to do right! Wrong. There is 40 thous. of room behind the trigger guard. Way too much.
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Easy peasy. Use a depth micrometer to tape around the wrist nice and even and a safe edge file to set the shoulder back. Then work down the tenon until I close the gap. Should have that done another evening or too.

Over Easter weekend I had a chance to handle a 16 gauge 1897, serial late 600k's. Took some measurements of its butt and it's about the same from comb to toe as these Boyd's "replacement" stock. They must be too lazy to make another program for their CNC. The wood is unevenly proud of the metal around the wrist too, so I'll have to deal with that also.

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Originally Posted by ssgross

They must be too lazy to make another program for their CNC.

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Maybe the butt they measured was about perfect and the originator really didn't know it was a 16 instead of 12. Maybe they thought the two were the same...just didn't know? Hard to say. I've found the stocks I had to get at were pretty much OK. Yours will turn out fine. You'll enjoy it more after...

yes. this one is coming along. I'm more worried about the model 12 stock, which I'll get to just as soon as I move this one along.

I'm a bit jaded with Boyd's. My email exchange with them took a long time, contained a snarky answer, and they failed to respond to my request to return these. I'll set up my own duplicator before I'll buy from them again. But you're right, I'll enjoy it more after...a bit of "sweat equity" ;)

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Originally Posted by ssgross

I'll set up my own duplicator before I'll buy from them again.

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I hear you...

Here it is. The finish is much more satin than the camera shows it. The walnut was lighter than I would have like, but I think I was able to darken it just enough to bring out the American in it - or at least it matches the original forend handle. It will get heavily used come turkey time, so I went ahead and waxed it.
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The buttplate turned out ok. It's curved on the underside from left-right. I didn't work it down that far when I fit it, so I may bed the underside center with epoxy to spread the recoil forces towards the center.
Next up I need to blue the barrel(s). The 20" norinco barrel has some light scratches that need buffed out. The original 30" barrel needs its bore cleaned up too. The repop bayonet adapters, of which I have 1 left, do not fit the norinco barrels - barrels are too thick. So I will likely need to abandon that and just leave it as a riot gun. There is plenty of thickness for screw in chokes, so maybe. Or perhaps I'll hold off till I get my lathe set up, knock off the 15thou or so off the muzzle end, and fit that bayonet adapter...and put in screw in chokes. I like having a sling when wandering in the woods for turkies.

Looks good...

Looks great! I am always on the look out for old well handled shotguns. I also found an original Model 1897 and Model 12 12 gauge shotguns. All of the wear was from handling and rarely being shot. Either gun was of any collectors value, just a good tool to use. The Winchester 1897 i cut the barrel down to 22 inches to use as a riot gun and left the patina as is. The Winchester Model 12 was a boat paddle. Internally, the shotgun was like new but the exterior was bad. I had to replace wooden foreend and buttstock. At one point the former owner chrome plated the shotgun. I left the chrome plating but also cut the barrels down to 22 inches and now it's my "pimp" shotgun.

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Originally Posted by fjruple

All of the wear was from handling and rarely being shot.

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Been looking at 97's and 12's for a very long time before I found the ones to restore at the price I wanted. I think I've surmised that the factory finish, on the model 12 in particular, was not very good nor durable. Likely a function of the alloy and bluing method. A good slow-rust blue should be much more durable.

I've never been a shotgun guy...in fact I have only fired a shotgun once in my life - I think it was a Remington 870? I shot 5 beanbag rounds during non-lethal weapons training in the USMC. I still haven't fired one since. I'm a bit OCD - the other 1897 I cut back and made a trench gun out of, I removed material from the barrel (slots for the bayonet adapter screws), so I wanted to find a nice quiet location I could put it in sled and pull a string from a distance first. This one all is in working order, just need to finish it up.

I think I need to start a new thread for the model 12 I'm working on. I thought I had one already but can't find it. The other thing I've noticed about these, especially more of model 12's, is how utterly filthy they become internally. If something is too difficult for the average Joe to maintain properly, he likely won't. No one wants to fiddle with a million springs, screws, and pins. I particularly hate all the staked parts on model 12 - but we managed where we had to. My model 12, on the original 30" barrel, has a small bding few inches back from the muzzle that will need dealt with. Need to measure how far into the choke it is. If it's in the middle, I think I can get at it with a hardwood dowel wedged at the right spot and light taps on the outside.

Anyway's, these will be the last shotguns I ever do...unless someone wants to pay me to do it again. I appreciate their history and usability in the grand scheme of things...but really don't care for the designs.