We Need to Outlaw Sandpaper

I obtained this Winchester M1 Garand last week from an on-line auction. I already had an SA and obtaining a Winchester was on my "want" list. I knew from the pictures it had been sanded (thanks to what I learned on this site), but I wasn't ready for how bad. When I shouldered the rifle for the first time, I literally thought the gun was crooked. It turns out it is just a bad case of "Bubbasandpaperitis."

I attached a few photos so persons new to collecting can see what they should be looking for. When I dismantled the rifle, I found that the only Winchester part in it is the receiver (the barrel is a SA-1-48). I was slightly disappointed, but this now makes it easier to decide what to do with it. I will replace the wood with a correct period (and worn) stock and WW2 era milled trigger guard so it can be returned to its correct WW2 set-up. I do have one question for the experts - the gas cylinder on this rifle is a very dark black color, almost like a paint (photo attached). Is this a correct USGI part or an aftermarket part? Between the overdone sanding and fake flash hider, I am wondering if Bubba replaced the original cylinder with a non-USGI part?

Thank you in advance for your expertise and advice!

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Originally Posted by Singer B

I will replace the wood with a correct period (and worn) stock

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I might have a Winchester stock I will have to dig a bit. However, if you aren't hard set on an original, Dupage Home | Dupage Trading Company has one they have made in the Winchester M1 Garand style for a reasonable price. I bought one to put on mine so that I'm not using the original stock when I decide to use it for NRA High Power Rifle .

Sometimes it's soldiers with time on their hands working those stocks.

Yes, I've seen these sanded like that before. That one's done. Wood can be had, sometimes even a matching military set...anyway, it can be had. The gas cylinder is OK but has been painted. Just use a liquid stripper and melt it off, maybe even acetone. I doubt Winchester left you any finish. You can always get it redone with a stainless Oxinate finish.

Thanks for the info. I'll strip that cylinder and try that finish. I'm going to search for an original Winchester stock. I know it will probably be pretty beat up and dinged, but to me, that is what the true character of a 1942 military rifle should be. I have a beautiful 1956 SA but she doesn't have any history. This Winchester does.

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Originally Posted by Singer B

a 1942 military rifle

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That stock could be a search and a real steep price, good luck.

Another of Bubba's likes is copious layers of varnish on the woodwork!:banghead:

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

copious layers of varnish on the woodwork!

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I prefer this...so much easier remove with a cabinet scraper while preserving the underlying character. But this one...oh my.

I bet that the advert purposefully excluded pics that would have shown the damage too. I hope you got away not paying the current market value of what you were hoping for.

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Originally Posted by ssgross

I prefer this...so much easier remove with a cabinet scraper while preserving the underlying character. But this one...oh my.

I bet that the advert purposefully excluded pics that would have shown the damage too. I hope you got away not paying the current market value of what you were hoping for.

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I did ok. I could tell from the photos it had been taken down quite a bit and would need some new wood. For this project, I have plenty of time and patience and have faith a proper set of wood at a reasonable price will come along. It is a new hunt that I will enjoy.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

That stock could be a search and a real steep price, good luck.

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Thanks! It will be worth it when it's done.

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Originally Posted by Singer B

I did ok.

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You did fine. You have it now, that's what's important.

Are you sure they did not use a draw knife? Never seen one that skinny.

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Originally Posted by HOOKED ON HISTORY

Never seen one that skinny.

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The coarse sandpaper will do that in short order, all it takes is impatience.

It's going to be interesting shooting it when I get it back together!

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

all it takes is impatience.

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And lots if elbow grease.

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Originally Posted by HOOKED ON HISTORY

elbow grease

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A few minutes with a palm sander and some pressure. That'll take of those disgusting gubmn't inspector marks.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

A few minutes with a palm sander and some pressure. That'll take of those disgusting gubmn't inspector marks.

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Should be replaced with the "Bubba Been Here" cartouche, but I suppose the whole stock screams it.

I've got one that's worse. Not a garand, but an 1880's Baker dounle barrel shotgun. The nimrod before me sanded the finish off of the damascus barrels. The stock had a bad shrinkage crack that had been filled with wood putty, He sanded it out too. I saw the gun before he touched it and was trying to sell it. My step daughter got it for $40, after the damage was done and gave it to me

Local gun shop had a fellow bring an American Eagle marked luger he had inherited to sell. The clerk told him it would be more valuable if it was German military marked. He took it home and ground the eagle off and brought it back.
Beware Bubba. He is everywhere and there is nothing he will not try.

I finished a bubba project on a Syrian Mas 49 because he started to rechamber to 7.62 but gave up half way. He cut the barrel and stock similarly to the century conversions, but decided not to cut the chamber, so no factory cartridge could fit.
It was a really nice rifle too, most numbers matching, not sanded, and no import marks.

In the past year, Local shop, they specialize in curio and relic type stuff, told me they sold a guy a really nice Ljungman and a Gewehr 43. They guy comes back a few weeks later and he had drilled and tapped both for scopes, added cheek rests, and cut the stock on the Ljungman. The bolts on both jammed because he put too long of screws in.
He demanded the shop buy them back because they didn't function, and claimed they should pay him more than the original price "because I modernized them and made them worth more"

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Originally Posted by BVZ24

I finished a bubba project on a Syrian Mas 49 because he started to rechamber to 7.62 but gave up half way. He cut the barrel and stock similarly to the century conversions, but decided not to cut the chamber, so no factory cartridge could fit.
It was a really nice rifle too, most numbers matching, not sanded, and no import marks.

In the past year, Local shop, they specialize in curio and relic type stuff, told me they sold a guy a really nice Ljungman and a Gewehr 43. They guy comes back a few weeks later and he had drilled and tapped both for scopes, added cheek rests, and cut the stock on the Ljungman. The bolts on both jammed because he put too long of screws in.
He demanded the shop buy them back because they didn't function, and claimed they should pay him more than the original price "because I modernized them and made them worth more"

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That's quite a sweet spot....enough money to buy those autoloaders, too little brains to know what they're buying.

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Originally Posted by BVZ24

because I modernized them and made them worth more"

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I thought my story was as bad as it gets.
I was wrong.

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Originally Posted by togor

That's quite a sweet spot....enough money to buy those autoloaders, too little brains to know what they're buying.

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I had always assumed bubbas glory days were over with the rising prices of good milsurps.
I was wrong.

I had a similar situation with a Smith Corona 03A3 that I wrote up in that section. https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=78109&page=1
The stock had been sanded so severely the butt plate stuck out by an eighth of an inch all the way around. Thankfully bubba got rid of all those pesky inspectors marks and really roughed up that smooth look. Someone slightly more clueless than I must have bought it at full retail price because my offer was never responded to.

They did paint those stainless gas cylinders to conceal the shine.
Of course the paint wore off and they were back to shiny metal again. Often visible in WW2 photos.

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Originally Posted by Mk VII

They did paint those stainless gas cylinders to conceal the shine.
Of course the paint wore off and they were back to shiny metal again. Often visible in WW2 photos.

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Thanks!

I am on track to pick up a Remington Armory 1917 Mosin Nagant. From what I can see in the pictures, I know Bubba found this gun too since it has a bent bolt handle. Or is this the ultra rare WWI pre-Pu sniper version? ? Once I obtain it, I'll probably post some pictures of it in the Russian guns section if the gun has any interesting characteristics.

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Originally Posted by Mk VII

They did paint those stainless gas cylinders to conceal the shine.

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I can tell you from experience that if you shoot that hot the paint will come off on anything it touches. Anything.

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Originally Posted by usabaker

might have a Winchester stock I will have to dig a bit

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Walt, don't have one.. A number of stocks but no Whinchester..

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Originally Posted by usabaker

Walt, don't have one.. A number of stocks but no Whinchester..

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Thank you for checking. One will turn up. Ssgross may have one. I really appreciate you taking the time to check!

Okay, I have made the decision to turn this into a money pit. I will start buying one piece or component a month until I get it close to 50-60% WRA, namely the stock/handguards, bolt, trigger group, op rod and gas cylinder. I noticed that these parts are available on ebay and other sites. I know there are many fakes out there and I am hoping to avoid them. Is there a list or prior thread that identifies who the reputable dealers are? Thank you!

FYI, the Remington Armory 1917 Mosin is a complete "Bubba Special" with no hope of recovery but I am going to keep it since the receiver is pretty cool.

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Originally Posted by Singer B

Okay, I have made the decision to turn this into a money pit.

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I refer to those as CPRs (cost prohibitive restorations). They will likely never pay off in $ but always worth the effort in skill building and the satisfaction of preforming CPR on a lifeless patient that is otherwise an organ donor.

Exactly, plus my wife said I could do it! It will be worth it when it is done.

Another good one...
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/979218157

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Originally Posted by BVZ24

Another good one...

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that description is priceless..."The buttstock has had some material removed".
I'd be scared to take position of that under a C&R license. I don't have one, but from what I've read the firearm must be in its original unaltered form.

Ultra lightweight.

C&R = curio & relic. It fits both of those categories (especially the curio part)!

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Originally Posted by ArtPahl

C&R = curio & relic. It fits both of those categories (especially the curio part)!

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I didn't mean just based on what it stands for. The atf page is vague in its information.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios-relics

Perhaps it fits in the first or 3rd category...but in the "how to obtain classification" paragraph we have...

"Firearms automatically attain C&R status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF's C&R list. Therefore, ATF does not generally list firearms in the C&R publication by virtue of their age."

This is why I stated I'd be nervous taking possession under a c&relic license.

Rather than outlawing sandpaper perhaps we should mandate its use on Bubbas tender areas with a belt sander?

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Originally Posted by HOOKED ON HISTORY

Rather than outlawing sandpaper perhaps we should mandate its use on Bubbas tender areas with a belt sander?

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I would support that. I just spent $200 for WRA parts for the Winchester and know that de-Bubbifying this piece of history is going to cost more.

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Originally Posted by Singer B

de-Bubbifying this piece of history is going to cost more.

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Yes, vastly. But after it'll look great. You'll just have to hang onto it for life.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Yes, vastly. But after it'll look great. You'll just have to hang onto it for life.

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Haha!! Absolutely! My kids will probably recoup some of my cost.

Reassembled the Winchester using a WRA trigger group I had purchased. It actually shot pretty well. Only issue it has involves inserting the loaded clips. One of them slipped in perfectly. The other two needed to be pushed in very forcefully. All 3 clips, once fully inserted, fed, extracted and "pinged" perfectly. Once I receive the new stock and pick up a few more WRA parts, I'll take it apart and see if I can improve the clip issue. If any of you have some suggestions reference the possible cause and solution, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Singer B

the possible cause

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Are they new looking? We have found the Greek black park clips have a huge outer thick coating of parkerizing. It forms on the surface, needs to be cleaned down. Try a little sandpaper and oil. Usually that's the problem. I had over 100 clips from various manufacturers so I never ran into that. My trouble would be poorly seated ammo in the clips.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Are they new looking? We have found the Greek black park clips have a huge outer thick coating of parkerizing. It forms on the surface, needs to be cleaned down. Try a little sandpaper and oil. Usually that's the problem. I had over 100 clips from various manufacturers so I never ran into that. My trouble would be poorly seated ammo in the clips.

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Thanks, that seemed to help. Still not great but may need some more work.

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Originally Posted by Singer B

may need some more work

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You may need to take virtually all the finish off them.

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Originally Posted by Singer B

the possible cause and solution

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I bought a bunch of new clips a while back. same issue. The solution was two fold. To make the rounds slide better (especially the top round of a fully loaded clip), a nice, long tumble in walnut media did the trick. To make cartridges easier to load, apply some light flexing. I made a wood block of just the correct size to insert one way then twist it with a pair of pliers so the other dimension will gently spread the clip. A couple dozen twists of the block improved the situation greatly.

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Originally Posted by ssgross

gently spread the clip

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Like a breaking in of sorts.

They didn't take pictures of the Ljungman, but they have a picture of the G43. Remember, this was done recently and it was all original before they sold it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CursedGuns/..._bubbad_exist/

Looks like one of those Reinhart Fajen things...

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Originally Posted by BVZ24

They didn't take pictures of the Ljungman, but they have a picture of the G43. Remember, this was done recently and it was all original before they sold it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CursedGuns/..._bubbad_exist/

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Makes you want to cry....

So we have made some progress! I was able to replace the stamped post-war trigger group with an original milled WRA trigger group. Ssgross came through a with an "experienced" stock that fit extremely well. My money-pit definitely looks more like it should and is more representative of its WWII heritage. There is also a lot more wood around the receiver so it doesn't look crooked when you shoulder it. I am therefore another $500 in the hole and planning on spending more. A WRA bolt will be ordered in July and maybe a WRA op-rod. As you can see from the photos, the stock provided by Ssgross is definitely a better fit than the sanded stock that came on the rifle.

Attachment 131189
New stock with 1956 SA

Attachment 131190
New stock with 1956 SA

Attachment 131191
Original sanded stock with 1956 SA

Attachment 131192

Attachment 131193

That stock looks right as rain now! Should be a totally different experience shouldering it next time at the range feel and sighting wise

bubba has been around a very long time and has no shame

if you outlawed sand paper bubba would just rub it against a rock

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Originally Posted by micmacman

if you outlawed sand paper bubba would just rub it against a rock

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That would be preferred. Then we could tell people it was "battle damaged"

You get it to the range yet? I bet it shoots better than the last time as the stock now locks up tighter.

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Originally Posted by ssgross

You get it to the range yet? I bet it shoots better than the last time as the stock now locks up tighter.

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Haven't shot it yet. Been working 3 jobs but hope to sneak out for a quick session next weekend.

We need to outlaw bubba'ing. :madsmile: :lol:



Bob

You guys trying to get me to lose my job
How am I going to feed my kids
Thanks Bubba

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Originally Posted by Bob Womack

We need to outlaw bubba'ing.



Bob

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Make it a felony. Caning as punishment.

i got one for you , i found a tent peg 40's Springfield .22 bolt gun , it was bad , i think i gave like 30 bucks for it , the stock had been panted with house/porch paint so many times i could not determine how many times , green , brown , a layer of white , that one had me laughing

on a positive not it turned out sweet

Bubba's sacrilege has no boundaries.

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Originally Posted by micmacman

i got one for you , i found a tent peg 40's Springfield .22 bolt gun , it was bad , i think i gave like 30 bucks for it , the stock had been panted with house/porch paint so many times i could not determine how many times , green , brown , a layer of white , that one had me laughing

on a positive not it turned out sweet

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I call that my newfangled "modern day laminate stock" - signed "Bubba"

Bubba works on cars and motorcycles too.
Some things just can't be un-seen or undone.

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Originally Posted by Torpedo

Bubba works on cars and motorcycles too.
Some things just can't be un-seen or undone.

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And guitars.

Bob

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Originally Posted by Bob Womack

And guitars.

Bob

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yea , avoid guitar forums on reddit if you have a weak stomach

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Originally Posted by togor

Sometimes it's soldiers with time on their hands working those stocks.

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Some soldiers shaved the stock to take off a bit of weight back in the day. Of course that was a big "no no" but some guys get crazy trying to save a few ounces.

I wrote an article for The GCA Journal on a military study of gear GIs discarded to save weight, fascinating. The biggest was they saved EITHER the shoe packs or the galoshes, but never both. They tossed things for even a few ounces, like the mess kit forks, saved only the spoon. The results were good, IIRC they cut their load down from over 100 lbs to less than 60.