P-14 Aus Sniper Rifle

Here's the add as I thought some one on here had recently come into possession of one and wanted the low down on the scope mounting bracket.
I just thought they could contact the seller and perhaps ask for detailed pics of the mount.

Calibre/Item: 303

Make: Winchester
Model: Australian Army Issue P14 sniper rifle
Action: Bolt repeater
Scope: 1918 (AUST) AOC V 1944
Serial No: W229194
Condition: Very Good

Phone:

Price: $12,500

Licence Number:

Advertised: 13/09/2023

Comment: An incredibly rare Australian issue Pattern 14 No.3 T sniper rifle. Otherwise known as the P14 sniper rifle, this is the first production Australian sniper rifle and served as the designated sniper rifle in the Australian armed forces in WW2 until the arrival of the Lithgow SMLE HT sniper rifle in late 1944. Forgotten Weapons specifies this as the best sniper rifle of WW1, however from available records it is unlikely this was used by the Australian armed forces during WW1. This rifle is described by Ian Skennerton as Lithgow's first production .303 sniper rifle - See YouTube Lithgows first production .303 Sniper Rifle - YouTube The optics on the AOC scope are very clear and the rifle is in very good condition with all of the required markings. The holy grail of collector's pieces. Text or call for photos.

Transferring Dealer: Recoil Firearms

Private Ad State: VIC
Here is the mobile No. 0427 561 952

Ha, as luck would have it, I have just been having a conversation about these very beasts!
I need to find the ad and ask a question of the seller… regarding numbers on the scope….

Whilst that specific model, Pattern 14 No.3 T, wasn't used by the AIF in WW1, the Pattern 1914 rifle was. The AIF used rifles with the fine sight (Winchester) and these were referred to as 'Sniper rifles' and 'scoped rifles' or 'telescopic rifles' were SMLEs with Aldis scopes.

The AIF unit records and ordnance records makes note of the requirement for 'Pattern 1914' rifles to be handed in separately from 'scoped rifles'.

Having discussed this video in another thread in another section on this board I would want to express here too that some of the things which are mentioned in the shown video are wrong. Skennerton claims that British P.14 sniper rifles have W prefix on the rear sight protectors and the Australian ones don't. This isn't correct. British WWI contract rifles have stamped serial numbers in this area without W prefix; the only ones with W prefix are those of the Irish contract with BSA scopes. These atop have the W prefix and the whole rifle serial number pantographed.


Additionally in my opinion the serial number prefixes on the rifles he shows within his videos are of a different font than the following rifle serial. This in my point of view makes it obvious that they were added at a later point of time, maybe when taken over into Australian property/inventory, or during an overhaul in Australia. This therefore does not act as a proof for any P.14 sniper rifle ever having been set up in Australia.

This is most interesting. I'd never heard of Lithgow set up P'14 snipers. It would be nice to know more precise details of the manufacturers & the markings of all rifles or barrelled actions that Brian & Ian saw at SAF Lithgow back in 1979. The Remington set up certainly sounds a conundrum, & one of the possibilities is of course a sniper assembled after WW1 specifically for Australian requirements. The same could be said of the Winchester made rifles, but it would be nice to see some more evidence as I would have thought that they could just as easily be PPCo set up WW1 era rifles, with additional markings added during their Australian service history. I have to agree with Promo about the 'W' prefix. In my limited experience of P'14 snipers (I have owned about half a dozen, including one Irish contract rifle, & have seen a probably a couple of dozen others in collections or museums which is by no means a huge amount), the W was not routinely added to prefix the serial number when it was relocated to the right rear sight ear. From what I can gather it seems to be a feature of the Irish contract rifles.

Whilst looking to see if I had any saved information that would contribute to this discussion I found the old torn out picture (from Guns Review) shown - from a Weller & Dufty auction of the late 1980's. The rifle here seems to be one of the Winchesters with 'augmented markings'. I don't know if the scope case is matching, but it looks to be British WW1 era, with the typical leather trim to the edges of the webbing. The front mount base also appears to have the typical contours of the run of production PPCo set up WW1 era rifles. Whilst Lithgow could have mimicked the precise contours of the base they didn't bother with the No1 MkIII * H (T)'s, nor did BSA with the Irish rifles.....

Some Lithgow provenance barrelled actions with their mount bases still on them would be really helpful.........short of finding surviving documentation.

Well, then maybe adding this cross-reference also here .. I think "Son" is also a member on this forum, but he had posted images on Gunboards, hence I have to link there: New Member with a Question Re: P14 Sniper rifle | Gunboards Forums . Note this rifle has the (what Skennerton calls) "old" single D with broad arrow in it on the left receiver front as well as the (again, what Skennerton calls) "new(er)" D [broad arrow] D on the right side of the receiver ear, just above the rifle serial number, which is, in this context, serial prefixed. This therefore would make it obvious this particular rifle has been in Australian ownership pre the "late 1920s" (as Skennerton states in the video). This does not fit to the theory of D [broad arrow] D rifles with three digit prefix being newly set up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Promo

Having discussed this video in another thread in another section on this board I would want to express here too that some of the things which are mentioned in the shown video are wrong. ...snip...

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One statement in the video which caught my attention was regarding the Australian manufactured scopes having etched glass reticles.

I have no personal knowledge regarding this but about 15 years ago there was extensive discussion regarding this.

None of the individuals who had stripped Australian manufactured scopes had ever observed this.

All reported conventional post and wire reticles.

I have seen copies of the aussie mfg drawings however which spec an etched glass reticle - it created a lot of discussion...

Yes, some of the scopes have etched reticles... Patt: 18 AOC
I have one or two scopes and a chipped reticle.
Usually some of the filler would fall out and it was a proper bitXh to redo the reticle and it was much easier to replace the glass plate with a post and wire.

Since I've had some discussions with Ian on the serial number prefixes I'll also upload the two crops that I've done based on the YouTube Video in here. Note that the font size of the prefix is different as well as it uses different fonts for the same letters. On the contrary, the font for the rifle action serial is identical on all of them and fully uniform to any other British WWI P.14 sniper rifle. In my point of view these therefore would indeed suggest to be Australian added numbering prefix, but not for the fact that Australia has set up these rifles, rather than for rebuild and/or inventory.


https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....00&cid=1&stc=1https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....01&cid=1&stc=1

My No3T is similar D^D along side is serial # i presume.
............................ 244 The scope is a 1916PPC
The only W to be seen is where Winchester stamped it. The serial # is covered by the front mount not the W.

Bindi, would you mind sharing pictures of the markings on your rifle? Is your rifle double D with broad arrow and D broad arrow D stamped, or only D broad arrow D? Thanks!

Promo it is as i typed my post.

Would you mind showing it? Would be keen to compare the font being used. Thanks!

Don't know if it is of any interest to you guys but I have a manual for the Pattern 18 scope for the No3 Mk1*T (P14) rifle, and it also gives a bit of information about the Aldis scope for the No3 Mk1*T (P14)

Pdf attached :

So how many No.3(T) rifles did Australia purchase from British stocks between the wars?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

This is most interesting. I'd never heard of Lithgow set up P'14 snipers. It would be nice to know more precise details of the manufacturers & the markings of all rifles or barrelled actions that Brian & Ian saw at SAF Lithgow back in 1979. The Remington set up certainly sounds a conundrum, & one of the possibilities is of course a sniper assembled after WW1 specifically for Australian requirements. The same could be said of the Winchester made rifles, but it would be nice to see some more evidence as I would have thought that they could just as easily be PPCo set up WW1 era rifles, with additional markings added during their Australian service history. I have to agree with Promo about the 'W' prefix. In my limited experience of P'14 snipers (I have owned about half a dozen, including one Irish contract rifle, & have seen a probably a couple of dozen others in collections or museums which is by no means a huge amount), the W was not routinely added to prefix the serial number when it was relocated to the right rear sight ear. From what I can gather it seems to be a feature of the Irish contract rifles.

Whilst looking to see if I had any saved information that would contribute to this discussion I found the old torn out picture (from Guns Review) shown - from a Weller & Dufty auction of the late 1980's. The rifle here seems to be one of the Winchesters with 'augmented markings'. I don't know if the scope case is matching, but it looks to be British WW1 era, with the typical leather trim to the edges of the webbing. The front mount base also appears to have the typical contours of the run of production PPCo set up WW1 era rifles. Whilst Lithgow could have mimicked the precise contours of the base they didn't bother with the No1 MkIII * H (T)'s, nor did BSA with the Irish rifles.....

Some Lithgow provenance barrelled actions with their mount bases still on them would be really helpful.........short of finding surviving documentation.

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There is several barrelled actions from Lithgow on the market, they have been stripped down and “trued” on the sight wing to allow for scope mounting. I still know where 6 of them are, if I can work out how to post photos, I will post them for you

Kind regards
G

---------- Post added at 11:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:12 PM ----------

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Promo

Bindi, would you mind sharing pictures of the markings on your rifle? Is your rifle double D with broad arrow and D broad arrow D stamped, or only D broad arrow D? Thanks!

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In a broad statement, all Australian P14s should have both marking, the D with the broad arrow inside indicates Australian government property, likely from the imperial arms program. The D^D with the 2 above indicates a second grade/non standard/reserve weapon, they were added at seperate time in the early 20s to many weapons coming back from the Uk post WW1

sexyfishsticks
The 2 denotes the rifle went to the 2md not 2nd class weapon.

That's interesting sexyfishsticks. Hope you manage to post. If not, & you are prepared to send the photo's to one of us I am sure we could post them for you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bindi2

sexyfishsticks
The 2 denotes the rifle went to the 2md not 2nd class weapon.

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Don't spoil his fun - next you will be saying that the ones marked D3D. D4D etc went to the 3rd and 4th military districts

A post from our 'aussie friend' Damien on the same subject.

I'm pretty sure that the numerals between the D _D refer to the MD number. I have seen D/I\D on 6, and we did not have 6th grade reserve arms.

MD stamping on my 1916 MkIII.

I edited out it's serial so don't think it's been scrubbed !
Also ages ago the ? came up in relation to what it meant with it I asked politely could someone knowledgeable let us all know, for some reason no one was willing to explain what it means.

Consensus from a member stated along with a scad load of writing he made available to download that it was to do with the metal used at that juncture, basically told anyone interested to go find it themselves even though they said they knew why/what it meant.
I am interested in the Lithgows & their production and would like to know the meaning of this stamping and the issues if any with the metals used and see no real reason for some to play secret squirrel with information thats is like the rifle 109 years old/ago!:yikes:

The D^D with a 2 above or below has been lost in translation. The marking for equipment in Australian service even states that a D^D with a number should be stamped on equipment to denote the military district.

Some still stick with the writings of a later period stating otherwise but I shall go with official documentation.

And it's strange that in no way, shape or form did Australia refer to any weapons as 'First grade' or 'Second grade/reserve arms' in its classification of weapons. - Source - The multiple Australian military ordnance documents.

I f I recall correctly, Damien managed to get hold of the returns for weapons for the military districts in the late 1920s/early 1930s and found that all the P-14s had been issued within the 2nd Military District.
- So poor 2nd Military District must have been given 'Reserve grade' P-14s....or....they might just be marked appropriately to the 2nd MD!