Christmas Present to Myself

Two Lee Enfield rifles:

The No 1 is a mark III Century Arms import from 1928, but has features of a mark III* and the brass butt stock disk has been replaced by a wooden plug. It works fine.

The No 4 is a mark I French Enfield from Navy Arms from 1944. I'm still fussing with the magazine. The reproduction mag that it came with was terrible and I've replaced that with a recently manufactured mag. Better, but still not right. The follower tends to stick.

Once the weather here in Wisconsin improves it is off to the range.

I take it the repro mag was one of those Promags? Those even look horrible. The sticking follower might just need a touch of file to free it up. Unless it's a civilian made copy of the original, which all bets are off. Sounds like a nice pair for Christmas...let us know when you get them wrung out.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

I take it the repro mag was one of those Promags? Those even look horrible. The sticking follower might just need a touch of file to free it up. Unless it's a civilian made copy of the original, which all bets are off. Sounds like a nice pair for Christmas...let us know when you get them wrung out.

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I don't know who made the original reproduction mag. It looks ok, but just doesn't work. The mag pictured I obtained from Liberty Tree Collectors. It's better, but still not quite there. I've just ordered an original Savage mag from Apex. We'll see how that works out.

Apparently, inter-changeability is not a Brit strong suite. Here are three No. 4 mags:
https://www.milsurps.com/vbpgimage.p...5&d=1703800964
On the left is the original reproduction follower, with a little bit of filing, inserted into the mag body from Liberty Tree, in the middle is an original Savage mag, and on the right is the follower from Liberty Tree inserted into the original reproduction mag body. Of these, the left most one is working out the best. The Savage mag has a tendency to pop the left-most cartridge out of the receiver. Notice the more pronounced hump on the follower. The right most follower has a weak spring. Cartridges will sometimes not get popped up enough such that the bolt head passes right over the round.

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Originally Posted by Neuraleanus

pparently, inter-changeability is not a Brit strong suite. Here are three No. 4 mags:

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It is a well known fact that magazines have to be individually fitted and 'tuned' to correctly fit, and, they are not interchangable.
The 'ears' can be just a 'few thou' out of position and the rifle will not load correctly, this is why magazines were not designed to be removed (that is why they had chargers) or kept in pockets or pouches. because of the high risk of knocks.

I also got myself a No 4 for Christmas. Mine is one of those nice unissued Long Branch rifles from NZ.
The magazines are not considered interchangeable and only meant to be removed for cleaning. Some magazines are even numbered to the receiver. The early ones are even chained to the rifle. I have been lucky with most of my No 1 magazines that they all work.
One of the flaws in the design are the feed lips. They aren't as strong as the ones found in modern magazines and are very easily bent out of shape.
You may need to mess with adjusting them until it works. It's a lot easier to guess and check one mag at a time with a good supply of magazines, but they aren't all that common in WI gun stores. I sometimes see No 1 and No 4 magazines at the Bob and Rocco shows, but only a couple at best, and 1's and 4's are further not interchangeable.

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Originally Posted by Neuraleanus

Once the weather here in Wisconsin improves it is off to the range.

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Long wait there. A few Spotted Cows might make the time go mor quickly.

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Originally Posted by Neuraleanus

The right most follower has a weak spring. Cartridges will sometimes not get popped up enough such that the bolt head passes right over the round.

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That's because the right spring in picture belongs to a #1Mk3 rifle magazine. When you look at them you see they're different. As stated your mag needs to be fitted when new and then stay with the rifle. They're mild steel and can be twisted so they misfeed. The one that pops rounds out needs lips reshaped. They should snap in cleanly or the spine needs to be altered a touch. Peter Laidler spoke of having buckets of them salvaged and just sliver soldering a new locking spine on before fitting.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

That's because the right spring in picture belongs to a #1Mk3 rifle magazine. When you look at them you see they're different. As stated your mag needs to be fitted when new and then stay with the rifle. They're mild steel and can be twisted so they misfeed. The one that pops rounds out needs lips reshaped. They should snap in cleanly or the spine needs to be altered a touch. Peter Laidler spoke of having buckets of them salvaged and just sliver soldering a new locking spine on before fitting.

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That's interesting. Are you saying that because of the increased curvature on the left side? It does resemble the follower in my No 1, Mk III. I know that the mag bodies are different, they are not interchangeable between rifles, but I did not know that the followers are different. This is odd in that it came from a No 4 mag. I'll take a look at Laidler's stuff.

On the issue of the Savage mag, how would I go about reshaping it? A bit of hammering with a ball-peen?

I have found that these magazines can fit and work if you adjust them. I have four that I use for practical rifle competitions that function flawlessly, drop out without problems as long as you handle the exceeding strongl magazine spring.

The best bet in Wi for surplus goodies is the big Fond du Lac fair grounds gun show. But parts are difficult too find due to so many RTI dogs people are trying to repair at most shows.

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Originally Posted by 72 usmc

The best bet in Wi for surplus goodies is the big Fond du Lac fair grounds gun show. But parts are difficult too find due to so many RTI dogs people are trying to repair at most shows.

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I haven't purchased anything from Royal Tiger. Heard too many tales of woe.

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Originally Posted by Neuraleanus

On the issue of the Savage mag, how would I go about reshaping it? A bit of hammering with a ball-peen?

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NO NO NO

It is a very delicate, almost microscopic, adjustment.
A small pair of needle-nose pliers and tweak the left hand side tab 'upwards' by 1/64" and see if it improves, if not try another 1/64" repeat a couple more times if still no sucess, then try putting the tab back to the original position and tweak the other tab.

Keep adjusting until you get it to work properly.

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Originally Posted by Neuraleanus

A bit of hammering with a ball-peen?

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That would end it's little life. They're SO soft. Just a tweak as A de E states.

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

It is a very delicate, almost microscopic, adjustment.

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

NO NO NO

It is a very delicate, almost microscopic, adjustment.
A small pair of needle-nose pliers and tweak the left hand side tab 'upwards' by 1/64" and see if it improves, if not try another 1/64" repeat a couple more times if still no sucess, then try putting the tab back to the original position and tweak the other tab.

Keep adjusting until you get it to work properly.

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This is what I did:

I left the follower itself alone. I compared the height of the follower hump to the one that was working and found them to be identical. I also noticed that the right-most tab on the mag body was bent up more allowing a higher follower hump over the top edge of the mag. Upon hammering the tab a bit this reduced the follower height and I was able to make the follower profile appear more like the other mag. The result is rounds are no longer popping up out of the receiver, but sometimes the right-most cartridge will get stuck. The other mag does not do this. The left-side tab doesn't seem to have much of an effect on the follower position. I have not touched the rear tabs. Not sure what to try next.

This endeavor brings up an interesting question. If the Brits matched mags to each rifle what was their procedure? Is there a check-list of things to do, or is this all lost to time?

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Originally Posted by Neuraleanus

Is there a check-list of things to do, or is this all lost to time?

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Peter Laidler and a few others will have a checklist, not lost to time at all. The final thing you are chasing is just a minor tweek with the mag and your problem will be gone.

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Originally Posted by Neuraleanus

This is what I did:

I left the follower itself alone. I compared the height of the follower hump to the one that was working and found them to be identical. I also noticed that the right-most tab on the mag body was bent up more allowing a higher follower hump over the top edge of the mag. Upon hammering the tab a bit this reduced the follower height and I was able to make the follower profile appear more like the other mag. The result is rounds are no longer popping up out of the receiver, but sometimes the right-most cartridge will get stuck. The other mag does not do this. The left-side tab doesn't seem to have much of an effect on the follower position. I have not touched the rear tabs. Not sure what to try next.

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Break through:
At least for this rifle, sample size of one, not only is the degree of bend of the front right-most tab an issue, but so is its shape. In comparing to my other mag I noticed that the rear corner had been removed. Upon filing this corner a bit the problem of stuck rounds was greatly diminished. Rounds are cycling much better now.

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Originally Posted by Neuraleanus

Break through:
At least for this rifle, sample size of one, not only is the degree of bend of the front right-most tab an issue, but so is its shape. In comparing to my other mag I noticed that the rear corner had been removed. Upon filing this corner a bit the problem of stuck rounds was greatly diminished. Rounds are cycling much better now.

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Great news.

This is why the magazines were dedicated to each individual rifle, and eventually were actually numbered to match to avoid any chance of them being lost.

Once the numbering instruction was introduced for new rifles, the instruction was also sent out to all armourers that the magazine should be numbered on all existing rifles the next time they came in for their regular sevice check-up.

In theory, if you have an un-numbered magazine then it is not original to the rifle, however, not all commonwealth countries followed instructions so it is possible that it was never numbered to the rifle.

The (alleged) French Resistance No4 rifles have 'mislaid' their magazines so you are always going to be starting from behind the 8-ball and will have to adjust & tune them to fit.

Finally got these rifles to the range. Both rifles functioned well and I was able to load using a charger. Recoil was much less than what I had imagined. At 100 yards out of twenty shots I only hit the target once. Most guys there were using scopes. No key-holing. I'm a newbie. On the No. 4, I wonder whether I should of used the flip-up sight rather than the battle sight. I made no attempt to zero it.

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Originally Posted by Neuraleanus

Finally got these rifles to the range. Both rifles functioned well and I was able to load using a charger. Recoil was much less than what I had imagined. At 100 yards out of twenty shots I only hit the target once. Most guys there were using scopes. No key-holing. I'm a newbie. On the No. 4, I wonder whether I should of used the flip-up sight rather than the battle sight. I made no attempt to zero it.

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Yes, use the 'flip up sight' it has a far smaller 'hole' so you are more accurate.

Start at (say) 20 yards get on target, move out to 50 yards, get on target, move out to 75 yards, get on target move out to 100 yards and you'll still be on target.

Unless you are using original MkVII military ammunition the sight calibrations will not be accurate, you need to make up your own crib-sheet for sight settings - you may find (just as an example) that at 50 yards you need the sights set at 200 yards, whilst at 200 yards you need the sights set at 250 yards.

With the 'flip-up' sight my Savage is capable of under 1 MoA (when I do my part)

2 warming rounds at 10' Oclock then 5 rounds.
Wind 10mph right to left
Lying Prone with only elbow support.
PPU 174gr BT FMJ factory loaded ammunition.