Re Fitting a No. 4 Mk 1* Fore-end

Good Afternoon.

I am in the process of refitting the fore-end to my No. 4 Mk 1* and have run into a few issues. Brian fitted a new barrel and bolt head for me (for a small fee ;) Thanks Brian!).

So a few notes. I have read Peter's article on fitting fore-ends a few times already (probably need to read it 10 more times).

1) With the barreled body inverted on the bench and the fore-end placed on it if you just put a little pressure down at the magazine well the fore-end does not move fore/aft. Draws OK?

2) The front trigger guard screw takes just over 6 3/4 turns to contact with and without the collar fitted.

3) With the front trigger guard screw tightened the aft part of the trigger guard does not line up with the hole in the body (see first picture). It's up about 1/8".

4) With the front trigger guard screw tightened and the rifle laid across my legs fore-end down on my 4 fingres I cannot press down on the barrel with my thumb. It just barely touches the fore-end at the muzzle. If I force the trigger guard down at the rear so the holes line up the muzzle comes up off the fore-end by about 1/32"-1/16". This is no bueno.

5) The trigger guard appears to be flat when I lay a straight edge along both sides of the magazine opening.

6) The barrel is just off center of the channel in the fore-end. I can wiggle the back of the body very slightly left and right to get it centered. Draws NOT ok? Opening in fore-end too large and needs a bit of shimming? Picture 2.

So the first question is where to start? I'm guessing that this is the result of this rifle being over 80 years old and having been all over the place.

Thanks

Stuart
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Some more investigating.

I removed the fore-end and just attached the trigger guard with the collar and screw and the rear hole perfectly aligned with the hole in the body. So I'm figuring that the trigger guard is at least flat enough.

When I set the guard into the recess in the fore-end it fits pretty well except there seems to be a high spot just behind the front trigger guard screw. The guard pivots slightly at the highlited area in the second picture. It's hard to see in the photo but the wood has a smooth and shiny appearance where there is contact at the pivot point. When it's just placed in the recess without the front screw tightened it lines up correctly at the rear.

Another question. I'm considering 2 options at this point. The first is to use a few thousandths of shims between the collar and the trigger guard to prevent the rocking and get the correct alignment with the rear screw in the trigger guard. This would also prevent the lifting of the muzzle at the front of the fore-end. The other is to carefully scrape the high spot of the fore-end until it no longer rocks and aligns properly. I shouldn't have to adjust the length of the collar as it's not contacting the trigger guard boss until it's tightened a bit and begins to pivot.

What do you think?

Stuart

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It is an arcane and mysterious art grasshopper. You must take a piece of wood and make it fit securely on six surfaces the metal parts within it. The metal must bear against the wood equally and evenly. But you shout, "metal hardly moves at all while wood wanders like a stray cat!" This is so Grasshopper, and the ancients designed it thus that you might learn patience, or to prefer plastic rifles according to your inclinations.:D

I'd put the trigger guard front screw in but leave it loose then put the rear trigger guard screw in the tighten almost fully the front screw then the rear trigger guard screw tighten up to nip point, nip the front trigger guard screw up then the rear.
Thing is with wood once you start removing it ya canny put it back!

I've downloaded all of Peter L's articles and have Roger Wallams book on accurizing the Lee Enfield but I am not trained nor have the experience to go fiddling with the bedding.

First thing I always ask is- does the bugger shoot? seen some absolute dogs, butchered, sporterised enfields, loose forends, no up pressure and they still group. Agree, once the wood has been removed, its difficult to put it back again.

After further examination I have determined (rigthly or wrongly) that the recess for the trigger guard is actually flat from behind the hole for the boss all the way back. The problem lies where the front of the trigger guard rests at the very front. There is a very narrow ledge that is crushed down allowing the rear of the guard to rise up as the front screw is tightened. Picture 1. This with the fact that the collar appears to be too short by about 1/16". Picture 2.

So I know I'm going to get some pushback on this but instead of scraping the trigger guard recess I have decided to epoxy bed the forward portion. I could remove some of the wood and replace it and re machine it to fit but using a small amount of epoxy will give me a perfect fit withought a lot of fuss. Also it will keep the correct alignment I already have with the rear trigger guard screw. This will give the guard a place to rest the forward tip and help prevent it from tipping down. I'll also have to shim the collar to get the correct length. I know if I just shim the collar it will effectively keep the front of the guard from tipping down but I think it needs to be more secure to help prevent movement.

The adventure continues.

Stuart

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There are all sorts of weird and wonderful interactions happening in this area. Roger Wadham has a load of video's on YouTube under 'Enfield Accurizing' which describes really well. the wood in this area should only compress so far until the guard contacts the screw bushing. PL would be able to confirm, but originally the armorers had to size this with a gauge to ensure correct fitment. I picked up a BSA a few years ago that had been 'refurbed' by a guy locally. there was no bushing installed. Picked up a few surplus and they vary wildly in size as they are normally stoned down to fit. I got lucky and it made the world of difference.
Good luck and may the force be with you.

Why not replace the collar if it's too short? Someone putting great ape strength on the front guard screw with the shortened collar is why it's crushed. Shims are a no-go but I digress.

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

Shims are a no-go but I digress.

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Brian, thanks for chiming in.

I could get a new collar but the steel shims will at least get me going in the right direction. Once I get the trigger guard area figured out I still have to set the muzzle pressure which is currently little to non existant. And any trimming of the area under the barrel reinforce will likely result in changes to the collar length. Change one thing here then it seems that there are adjustments to be made everywhere else. There's also the left/right slop at the draws that might need to be addressed as well. Definitly a challenging and fun exercise.

Numrich has it for just over $3.

Or do you have any?

Stuart

I've got plenty if/when you need one.

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Originally Posted by flygrimm

I could get a new collar but the steel shims will at least get me going in the right direction

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Have you checked the collar for increased diameter/distortion? Often when an item such as a steel bush is crushed it's diameter increases because, as my first foreman once said, "The metal has to go somewhere.". Obviously, an over diameter/distorted bush/collar is going to do little to aid alignment in this situation that is the subject of this thread.

I have got a much better idea. Just parcel it all up and send it to Brian. He has the mysterious fitting of fore-ends down to a fine art.

As apprentices, it took months and months of classroom theory and practice to fit a fore-end properly and correctly. And if we did it wrong, we had to patch the fore-end and fit it again - properly this time. Just send it to Brian.

I have fitted plenty badly, patched and refitted plenty too as an apprentice. And done literally hundreds since. And you ain't going to learn by reading, believe me

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I have got a much better idea. Just parcel it all up and send it to Brian. He has the mysterious fitting of fore-ends down to a fine art.

As apprentices, it took months and months of classroom theory and practice to fit a fore-end properly and correctly. And if we did it wrong, we had to patch the fore-end and fit it again - properly this time. Just send it to Brian.

I have fitted plenty badly, patched and refitted plenty too as an apprentice. And done literally hundreds since. And you ain't going to learn by reading, believe me

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I've done a few now and its really not easy, that's using your clear instructions Peter and going very slowly and methodically! That said, fitting a NOS 1903 Springfield stock is even worse, that really is a royal pain, getting the action seated at the 'exact' right height.

From memory I think the uplift at the front 1 1/2" near the muzzle is 4-5lbs is that correct.

One of my No.4's is solid bedded with no uplift at all and it shoots very well indeed have won shoots & comps with it, my go to one I use predominantly has normal bedding is just as good winning an invitational shoot a fair while ago at the SASR range in perth against 40 other Lee enfield, Springfield, M-17 & mauser shooters.

Peter

Sending the whole kit to Brian might be an option in the future. I wish we had discussed it when I sent him the barrels and action but alas it didn't occur to either one of us I guess.

So onwards, or should I say back to the beginning.

I've been messing around with the fit at the draws. I had inadvertently left a small amount of tape on the action behind the draws and reassembled it. The fit was fantastic at the rear with no back and forth movement at all. I wondered what had changed and when I took it apart I realized that I had a tiny bit of tape on the back side of the draws. Well an experiment was in order so I put 1 layer of tape (about .0045") over the entire face of the draws (picture 1) and reassembled. Fitting the fore-end again the fore/aft movement was completely gone as well as the side to side at the draws. Hmmm.

Putting everything back together resulted in some other interesting things. The gap between the collar and the trigger guard is almost completely gone and now I'm getting contact at the muzzle. Not much, only about 0.5 pound but it's better than the negative value I had before. As for the collar I can only guess that there was something protruding from somewhere that was keeping the fore-end up a bit. That seems to have resolved itself anyway.

Now that the fit at the rear seemed to start cooperating with me I turned my attention to the muzzle. As I said I am now getting positive contact at the front end now. So another experiment was in order. As the front trigger guard screw is a pivot point instead of removing material at the barrel reinforce I added more tape shims to the back of the fore-end (picture 2). A temporary measure, If I don't remove any wood, I won't have to put it back! I added around .018" at the rear and that brought the muzzle force to around 1.5 pounds. Admittedly a bit on the low side of the 3-7 pound range but at least I appear to be moving in the right direction.

Got to fly the jet for the next week so I won't be able to work on her for a bit, but as always your comments are greatly appreciated.

Stuart

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If you are going to be flying jets this week, you can certainly afford to pay someone to do the work properly.

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Originally Posted by scharfschutzen63

If you are going to be flying jets this week, you can certainly afford to pay someone to do the work properly.

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But where would be the fun in that and I wouldn't learn anything.

Stuart

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Originally Posted by scharfschutzen63

you can certainly afford to pay someone to do the work properly.

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You don't know that Stuart isn't going "to do the work properly", as you put it, at this stage. He may take longer and do the job in a more roundabout way than someone more experienced but it's the end result that counts.

If I was going to do what Stuart is doing there are beater stocks out there one can practice on till the cows come in honing ones skill set and practical knowledge, rather than work on the one for the rifle.
That way any faff up's won't matter as you cannot put the wood back well you can but from some of Peters work I have seen and in other books replacing the draws in the stock is a fairly big operation to do correctly.
Besides you'll have some kindling come winter time.