What to do about this crown?

Short version of the story (long version may come later):

BSA No 4, been like this for ages I'm sure, does not look fresh.

Rifle is a pre-1968 import to the US. Ding appears to protrude into the bore slightly at the edge of a rifling land.

Rifle is not terribly accurate (nor is the operator), bore is dark and frosted but may clean up, etc.

Do you:

Ignore it?

Remove it with a small stone, file, etc. and hope for the best?

Hit it with a round head brass wood screw and some lapping compound?

Buy one of the commercially available hand crowning tools and "touch it up"?

Take the rifle to the local guy to touch up the crown on a lathe?

Send it to a 'smith that isn't local?

Or some other option I've not yet considered?

Attachment 138373

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Originally Posted by Garandy

Take the rifle to the local guy to touch up the crown on a lathe?

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That would be the most accurate way. If the bore is dark and frosted, you may never get it to hit a barn door.

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Originally Posted by Garandy

Remove it with a small stone, file, etc. and hope for the best?

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For what this rifle's serviceable life left is, that's what I would do. You can't really screw it up, unless the new shiny spot is going to bug you; and it might make a noticeable difference in the accuracy.

If this was a precision rifle thusly damaged, I would have the entire crown redressed in the lathe.

Counterbore it, the Soviets did the same on all those M-Ns they refurbished.

Cet it re-crowned so that the plug bore gauge runs freely. That's what we would do. Then accuracy test it according to the EMER. THAT is the final arbiter of a barrels condition

I would debur carefully with a needle file, shoot it, and if it groups well then it’s good enough.

Needle file, then lap it. Won’t cost much if you have the tools.

So there.

That's every single way you could do some sort of repair mentioned sequentially. No two alike. Well, Peter and I are saying the same thing...

So, more details and information.

Rifle in question is really a BSA No4, it just so happens to be a T. Rifle matches itself but the No32 Mk1 scope (serviced some years back by Peter) and bracket while real, are not originally from this rifle.

I might have another reason for lack of accuracy besides the crown. The at least twice staked in service front pad screws loosened up again and the front pad came loose from the receiver so I actually have two issues I need to fix.

The current sorry state of "gunsmithing" in my local area is pretty dire unless you need the sights changed on a Glock or an AR-15. I'm not sure the few I know of even own a lathe or have a backlog I'd grow old waiting for them to burn down to get to my small crown problem.

So with that in mind, I have not issues buying some tooling and getting after it myself IF I'm not wasting my time and money or creating new issues. They are out of stock at the moment, but I'd think something of this nature (but maybe not this specific item) would potentially address my crown issue: BROWNELLS 45\ Cutter Steel Pilot Fits .311 Muzzle SKU: 080587311

Or something along these lines: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/10...253&pid=334892

Thoughts?

Either one as long as it fits the bore. Good luck with the front pad.

the pads are both soldered and screwed. Normally you would snug the screws, then heat the pad until the solder flows (it's just lead solder), and as you play the torch over the pad (a second set of hands helps), you tighten the screw to further bed the pad in the liquid solder. If the solder is a good joint, then the screws would never loosen - even if not freshly staked.

your rifle looks like the solder coverage is only maybe 60%. I would re-tin the receiver (and maybe the pad) before re-affixing it.

Are the screws for the front pad meant to have a small slot along the threads (Lengthwise) to allow the solder to flow into that as well, ensuring they won't move read or seen it somewhere here.

I’m honestly not sure. I’ve be never done the job myself, just seen it done.

I'm going to replace the screws as it appears that they are all slightly bent. Need to do some reading on front pad reattachment. I'm pretty sure Brian and/or Peter have posted about it several times, but I didn't pay enough attention as I didn't need the info at that exact moment.

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Originally Posted by Garandy

I'm pretty sure Brian and/or Peter have posted about it several times

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They have and it's here.

On the screws, if they tighten up ok, it will not matter if they are slightly bent. The solder job holds it laterally, the screws are just to apply pressure and hold the pad tight to the receiver.

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Originally Posted by Garandy

So, more details and information.

Rifle in question is really a BSA No4, it just so happens to be a T. Rifle matches itself but the No32 Mk1 scope (serviced some years back by Peter) and bracket while real, are not originally from this rifle.

I might have another reason for lack of accuracy besides the crown. The at least twice staked in service front pad screws loosened up again and the front pad came loose from the receiver so I actually have two issues I need to fix.

The current sorry state of "gunsmithing" in my local area is pretty dire unless you need the sights changed on a Glock or an AR-15. I'm not sure the few I know of even own a lathe or have a backlog I'd grow old waiting for them to burn down to get to my small crown problem.

So with that in mind, I have not issues buying some tooling and getting after it myself IF I'm not wasting my time and money or creating new issues. They are out of stock at the moment, but I'd think something of this nature (but maybe not this specific item) would potentially address my crown issue: BROWNELLS 45\ Cutter Steel Pilot Fits .311 Muzzle SKU: 080587311

Or something along these lines: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/10...253&pid=334892

Thoughts?

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Send it to Brian Dick at BDLtd. in NC if you want the pad put back properly and the muzzle restored.

I'd also suggest you post the numbers on your scope, bracket (mount), and the wrist of the rifle butt in case the matching scope (or rifle) is out there somewhere.

And yes, match-ups have occurred repeatedly.

If you want some new replacement screws let me know as they are still available from model engineer suppliers over here. I have plenty.
I have re-fitted quite a lot of pads to 4T's over the years. I use fryolux solder paste. It's viscous like thick custard & contains the finely divided solder as well as the flux. I tin the milled out panel for the front pad, & the area over which the rear pad sits, carefully. I also tin the mating faces of the pads. It is quite easily done using the fryolux, heating until it melts & the solder/flux goes a brown/golden colour. Wipe off the 'gold bits' carefully using a cotton rag (no synthetic materials!), leaving the relevant areas tinned & a bright silver colour (they must be clean & grease free before you start). I tin the screws too, carefully wiping off all surplus solder & flux. You can then carefully place the pads in position (one at a time), locate the screws, & carefully warm everything up just enough for the solder to melt. At this point you can pinch up the screws. The solder will soon solidify & lock everything solid. I make several passes over each screw until it is quite tight - but remember to stop before you knacker the screw slot!
The front pad screws may well protrude through into the bolt guideway, but you can shorten them to approximately right length beforehand & then trim off any excess when you've finished the soldering. H&H passed a milling cutter along the guideway to trim off the screw ends, but if you are careful a file will work satisfactorily. You may need to retouch the finish a little afterwards. It is also important not to over do it with the heat in case you mess with the heat treatment.

Note I use the word 'carefully' a lot!

Peter may well be able to suggest better means of doing this, so if he chips in read his post not mine.

Or send the rifle to Brian.......!

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

I have re-fitted quite a lot of pads to 4T's over the years.

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Excellent information base...

If I fail at fixing this myself, BDL is my plan B.

Roger, I'll gladly take you up on your offer. Would love to buy a few sets. Fryolux solder paste eh? I see several different flavors online. I'll have to see if something similar exists in the US.

And yes, I did take note of "careful" and that is the plan. Last thing I want to do is wreck stuff with too much heat.

I certainly woiuldn't be lapping the barrel. Don't forget, lapping the barrel is just another or polite way of removing some of the bore material. Additionally it's a good way of rounding the remaining edges of the rifling. The days of lots and lots of gauges are well past. If a snioper rifle passes the EMER accuracy test and the plug bore gauge runs, then the barrel is serviceable

Drop me a pm Garandy & I'll send you some pad screws.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

If a sniper rifle passes the EMER accuracy test and the plug bore gauge runs, then the barrel is serviceable

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You once pointed out that some beauty barrels wouldn't shoot shyte and some shyte barrels shot tiny clean groups.

That's right BAR. In the days of the No4T's, some tired T's looked like they could do with a new barrel. A simple job at the bigger Field or Command workshops, the sniper would kick up a fuss if you tried to 'improve' it. As far as he was concerned, if it shot well and was accurate, that's all that concerned him. Same as L42's and later the L96's. In fact, L96's were quite notorious for gleaming new barrels tat would group well on the test range, from the layer but were rubbish at 400 yards, the optimum sniper target range

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

the sniper would kick up a fuss

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Thus the link between the armorer and the shooter. Have him down and shoot between 600/1000 and show you what it would do. Save you work anyway.

Sadly he has since passed away (RIP) but goes to show you once a sniper always a sniper.
Shooting USAs Impossible Shots: The Old Sniper - YouTube

Making progress, Roger mailed me some pad screws and I've got a crowning tool on the way. Just need to wait for them to get here.

Solder paste is a little more of a challenge to locate locally so far.

Andy, you don't have to use solder paint/paste. You can use conventional rosin fluxed solder. I just find the application of Fryolux quicker & easier. I just checked for availability on the UK version of 'that' internet auction site, & a number of sellers came up. I'm sure if you go on the US site you'll find an equivalent.

Roger, I figured as much, and I have plenty of old school solder, but solder paste seemed interesting so I figured I might get some and play with it just because I had an excuse on this project.

Crowning tool is here. Pondering on my preferred method of dressing down the ding a smidge with the tools I have at hand before I deploy the crowing tool.

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Originally Posted by Garandy

dressing down the ding a smidge

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I've always just used a crown tool, usually dressed by hand from a standard tool steel blank lathe bit. Just get turnin'...

To be honest, I wasn't 100% sure the pilot of the crowning tool would fit the bore without dressing the ding down slightly since it is right at the end of a land and wanted to have a plan if it was needed.

I figured I would likely have the opposite issue since the tool I got is designed for the M1 Garand which is the pilot fit is a little loose in the bore and I was right. Pilot is about .2995" and the bore diameter is over .301" but less than .307". I can get other bushings for this tool, any consensus on how tight the pilot should fit in the barrel? I presume the less slop, the better the finished product.

Unfortunately, I don't have any pin gages between .301" and .307" so I'm going to check with a buddy who was a machinist and see if he might have something I can borrow in the range I need to get a better measurement of the ID at the muzzle.

Other available bushings for this tool over .301" are .3016", .3018", .3020", .3022", .3024", .3026", .3028", .3030", .3032", .3034", .3036", .3038", .3040", .3042", .3044".

Big thanks to Roger Payne, my screws got here in yesterdays mail. I really appreciate you sending them!

You are welcome Andy. As an aside I thought I might mention where I source my small bolts & screws. They are quick, not overly expensive, & happy to post internationally. I get all my 8 & 10 BA screws for No32's from there, as well as body pad screws for 4T's.
It's 'BA Bolts', of Cheltenham. Anyone who needs anything like this, if you put their name into your search engine you'll find their web site easily enough.

Still waiting to hear back from my buddy, but it seems that my existing pilot with one wrap of Scotch tape with no overlap is about .3035" and that fits in the bore much more snugly. It will not fit with a wrap and a half so I'm likely somewhere under .3055" based on my quick and dirty measurements.

Crown is done (no pic just yet).

Have not found time to play with the loose front pad just yet. Maybe next weekend.

This took way longer to get back to than I wanted, but here we are.

Screws (thanks Roger) shortened and blued, cleaned, tinned as best I could, pad and body cleaned, threads on the body chased, a little flux and solder added between the pad and the body after smashing some fine diameter solder flat with a hammer until it was paper thin and then a bit of torch and screwdriver work. After than I staked the screws into the existing stake marks in the pad and touched up the finish on the screwheads where I had done the staking.

It remains to be seen if my soldering work will hold up.

Attachment 138998Attachment 138999

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Originally Posted by Garandy

This took way longer to get back to than I wanted, but here we are.

Screws (thanks Roger) shortened and blued, cleaned, tinned as best I could, pad and body cleaned, threads on the body chased, a little flux and solder added between the pad and the body after smashing some fine diameter solder flat with a hammer until it was paper thin and then a bit of torch and screwdriver work. After than I staked the screws into the existing stake marks in the pad and touched up the finish on the screwheads where I had done the staking.

It remains to be seen if my soldering work will hold up.

Attachment 138998Attachment 138999

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I was taught that when staking you 'stake' at the end of the screwdriver slot so the deformed metal goes into the screw-slot.

I think pretty much all the 4Ts I have seen have been staked that way.




My current 4T

The pads staked into the screw slots is how this was staked previously before this repair.

I don't know how long ago it was posted, and the search function does not find it now but Peter Laidler posted something that I printed out at the time (probably 15 years ago) and labeled "No 4 T Pad Fitting Part 1" that stated that he would stake the screw heads into the existing stake marks so as to not tear up the pads any further. I figured I would try that approach and could always go with the "traditional style" staking later if needed.

Looking forward to the range report.

Yes, Garandy, you're right. I did suggest that and it was passed along the Armourers chain during the lifetime of the L42 when loose front pads were becoming a problem. It makes engineering sense too

We always used to set the recoil on the layer during range testing to HARD to test the fastness of the graticle and the front pad on the L42's. But the same applies equally to the No4T's

We used to wish that there was a similar simple solution to the dire quality of the fore-ends........