PPco Scope unknown mount

just picked up this PPco scope in very good condition but with a complex unknown mount !

https://www.milsurps.com/vbpgimage.p...5&d=1738777786

https://www.milsurps.com/vbpgimage.p...4&d=1738777362

It looks to be very similar to a system used with Aldis scopes fitted to sporterised P'14's. Never seen such a mount on the Model 1918, but I've seen several Aldis scopes with what looked to be the equivalent mount system in 1" scope diameter. Never seen any formal reference to it, & it could be a rare previously unknown sniping mount, but I think the former explanation is more likely. Thank you for showing it to me last Sunday. It is certainly unusual. I presume it rotated as it was fitted & then locked into place on the rear mount........same general principle as the turret mount on the Kar98k.

I think this scope would have fitted the BSA Model 1923 but I'm only aware of Aldis scopes being used.

That's the one, Nige. Couldn't remember the designation.

A bolt with no knob; that's a first! And the sling loop on the guard as well.

The mounts are certainly an advance on what was the current at the time, but the funny thing is there is no way of taking up any slop. The Goerz "semi-turret" design which seems to have inspired the front mount, was spring loaded and pivoted up and down. Here, if the user was not careful to keep things aligned when pivoting the scope tube to the right it would not be hard to strain the front mount. The rear dovetail is certainly strong enough to absorb recoil forces and demonstrates a knowledge that they operate in both directions, but there is no means of adjustment for wear.

The folding peep sights are clever; inspired by the Porter on the Ross M10?

So these were presumably the inspiration for the Remington Model 30 that appeared about 1926?

Skiprat, your scope's rear mount has apparently been designed to sit the scope farther forward than the example in Nigel's photos or is that just the length difference between the No.4 Aldis and Patt.18; I forget!?

this scope has BSA provenance,
I wonder if BSA "tried it out " so they could use the pattern 1918 as well as the Aldis, but due to the low numbers of rifles produced it came to naught , the mount is a lot of machining to fit to the eye piece belling out, a lot more when compared with the Aldis mount

I have a BSA Mk111 rifle with an Aldis 4 scope and the same mount system.
I got it at the Bisley arms fair about 12 years ago.
I have often wondered about its history.
Is it a genuine BSA made rifle/scope system?
Or a later put together from parts?

Availability may also have been a factor here in the decision between fitting an Aldis or a Model 1918. The latter was still current military issue at the time, whereas most of the Aldis scopes would have been recently (then) stripped from SMLE's when they were returned to Weedon circa 1921. They were one of the better British scopes of the era & they would also have been up for grabs on the surplus market. Aldis also continued production of the 4th pattern military type scope for the civilian market for a while after WW1, though I do not know for exactly how long. It has been suggested that they may have been using up leftovers from the WW1 military contracts.

Eric, it is more likely that your rifle was made up at sometime, but if you could tell us your scope serial number (approx would do), what the range grads are, & whether the scope has any signs of previous military acceptance/use, such as a broad arrow mark or engraved rifle serial, that would all help to give you a little more information about it.

303 Collector I would think you have a genuine BSA scope & rings there which has been grafted onto a SMLE, whether someone "making do" in the past or as an attempt to pass it off as a WWI sniper rifle who can say? The base is a bit on the crude side compared to the rings, you'd agree?

If we knew how many of these rifles were made up in the early 20s it would go some way towards answering where all the Aldis scopes that were supposed to remain in store for future use, actually ended up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

A bolt with no knob; that's a first!

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Actually the turned down flat bolt handle ("spoon like") is very typical for Mannlicher Schönauer rifles.

Sorry for the delay in replying.
Thank you for your replies.

The scope is an Aldis 4 and is marked "Aldis Brothers Birmingham No 154799"
The range drum is marked 1 to 6 and it has the standard post and crosswire reticule.
There do not appear to be any other marks on the scope or mount.
The scope is detachable in the same way as described earlier by Peter.

I'm no engineer but the actual mount on the rifle looks a lot harder to manufacture
than the scope rings. The mount is soldered and screwed to the charger bridge at the
rear and soldered and screwed to the receiver ring at the front. It actually shoots very well.
I will take some more pictures if anyone is interested.

Hello again Eric. I suspect your scope is one of the post WW1 products from Aldis, although is clearly of the military pattern. The serial number is outside the range found on the military contract instruments. I would also expect a broad arrow &/or a rifle serial number on it, if it was a Great War issue scope. Further, a WW1 sniping provenance to the rifle would be more plausible if the mount system was found on other known examples of WW1 British & Dominion rifles & scopes. It is possible that they are about, but I am unfamiliar with this system other than on the highly sporterised P'14's produced by BSA & shown to us in Nigel's post. This suggests they appeared in the 1920's.

Not withstanding the above, your rifle looks a beauty, & if she shoots well, even better. Enjoy her - she is certainly in the style of a Great War SMLE sniping rifle.

Thank you Roger.
I never thought it could be WW1. I actually got the rifle for the scope to put
in a set of overbore late war mounts. I eventually found a more correct Aldis
and used that instead.
I always wondered on its history so thanks again everyone for an interesting post.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Promo

Actually the turned down flat bolt handle ("spoon like") is very typical for Mannlicher Schönauer rifles.

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I used the term "knob" only because there is no alternative which can describe all the possible permutations of a bolt handle's end, but in this case it appears the bolt handle is a plain rod with a round end; that was what I had never seen before.

From the shading in the photo it may be that there is a slight relief on forward face of the lever or arm near the lower end, but otherwise it looks like a plain rod with a half-round end.

There may be a very slight outward taper to the end of the handle, but the shadow on the muzzle side of the handle gives a false impression I suggest.

Presumably a special order like the sling loop on the guard.

Thanks for letting me buy the scope in question today skiprat. It's an interesting piece.